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Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 3

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Nice piece in today’s Sunday Herald-Sun (page 7) - Carlton and AFL legend Alex Jesaulenko’s daughter Kate marrying Trent Croad - Carlton legend Alex doing it tough these days with Parkinsons Disease but was on hand for his daughter’s big day - all our best to the one and only Jezza to have played football.
 
Agree with Jimmy... as I've been saying... I think it would be really good if we could get him to the club.
Wright should be marching Lloyd out the door right now and holding a big $Loot bag with BARTEL printed on the side
 

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Well there's two scenarios:

1 - Voss is telling them something similar. The playing group are not following, no buy in.

2 - Voss is not telling them something similar. The playing group are following Voss' instructions.

Either way, there's a pretty big problem...

As for what I believe, Voss isn't a tactically sound coach. He knows one way to play the game and it shows out on the field. So no, I don't think he's giving them a similar message to what Bartel said.
OR Voss is telling them and too many can't do it - which is the more realistic and observable and measurable ( ie sans 'opinion' based ) datum.

Players 'not buying in' - another proofless dig.
 
OR Voss is telling them and too many can't do it - which is the more realistic and observable and measurable ( ie sans 'opinion' based ) datum.

Players 'not buying in' - another proofless dig.

You can't prove anything you say either mate...

If Voss has been driving the right message from day one, then why, 4 seasons in are we dealing with the same issues?

Do you even know what his role as a coach is? Define why you think he's the right person for the role...

Let's see what proof you can come up with...
 
OR Voss is telling them and too many can't do it - which is the more realistic and observable and measurable ( ie sans 'opinion' based ) datum.

Players 'not buying in' - another proofless dig.

Why is it not a fair question?

None of us know the answer but BF said it could be a number of issues and this is one. Are you saying you know it's not?
 
Why is it not a fair question?

None of us know the answer but BF said it could be a number of issues and this is one. Are you saying you know it's not?

Other posters have actually quoted the stats on team effort in games this year - Carlton ranks top4 in most stats - except for execution - not effort. Therefore continuing on with 'questions' about 'buy in' is just agenda.
 
You can't prove anything you say either mate...

If Voss has been driving the right message from day one, then why, 4 seasons in are we dealing with the same issues?

Do you even know what his role as a coach is? Define why you think he's the right person for the role...

Let's see what proof you can come up with...
BF- you are factually wrong - effort levels from players is not the issue and never has been.

As for the right coach - I think he has doe a lot of things right and unfortunately has also had an awful run with bad luck on top of a list with issues. If there was a better coach available ( I got shot ion here for being pro - Ross Lyon) it is of course impossible to determine.
 
Other posters have actually quoted the stats on team effort in games this year - Carlton ranks top4 in most stats - except for execution - not effort. Therefore continuing on with 'questions' about 'buy in' is just agenda.

You can have effort without buy in. Like BF you are making an assessment without actually knowing which is fine.
 
You can have effort without buy in. Like BF you are making an assessment without actually knowing which is fine

I cant see effort without buy in Soap - and that is besides the point you cant be top 4 in so many measures and bottom 4 in execution factors and not conclude that execution is the large issue. Now if one takes the POV that execution is a coaching issue ( which I disagree with) then maybe that is a case - a weak one- but a case.
 

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BF- you are factually wrong - effort levels from players is not the issue and never has been.

As for the right coach - I think he has doe a lot of things right and unfortunately has also had an awful run with bad luck on top of a list with issues. If there was a better coach available ( I got shot ion here for being pro - Ross Lyon) it is of course impossible to determine.
You never got shot by me JAB, actually I do agree with that sentiment.
 
I cant see effort without buy in Soap - and that is besides the point you cant be top 4 in so many measures and bottom 4 in execution factors and not conclude that execution is the large issue. Now if one takes the POV that execution is a coaching issue ( which I disagree with) then maybe that is a case - a weak one- but a case.

That's your opinion. Much likes Blue Fusions. Neither are an actual Fact

IMO players can produce effort without "buying in" to what the coach wants. BUT that's just my opinion
 
No I cant see strong effort sans buy in - give me an example.

Whilst buy in def includes effort, it also encompasses team work, trusting team mates, putting your body on the line...

You wanna tell me that Williams, Gov, Doc haven't been pulling short?

How many team mates getting burned in favour of bullshit outside banana shots at goal from tight angles?

Hospital hbs... setting a team mate up because you don't want to absorb a tackle.

Players doing sloppy kicks off the ground instead of putting the head over the ball...

There's next to no work rate to spread, watch the games live, have a look at the "options" being provided... non existent... we take a mark at hb and they're mostly stagnant...

d50 setups we look totally lost at times...

Too many players are playing as individuals, not as a cohesive team.

There's your lack of buy in. A team with belief in the coach's message will see players doing unselfish things for the benefit of the team. It's just not happening.
 
That's your opinion. Much likes Blue Fusions. Neither are an actual Fact
I cant recall teh thread or the poster from yesterday or the day before but quite a comprehensive list of what Carlton as a team is top4 in stats THIS YEAR and what it is not doing well at is- the stats as evidence of where the team sits versus opponents is fact Soap - not 'opinion'.

From memory contested ball #1, tackles top4, - if that isnt by in - I don't know what is.
 
I cant recall teh thread or the poster from yesterday or the day before but quite a comprehensive list of what Carlton as a team is top4 in stats THIS YEAR and what it is not doing well at is- the stats as evidence of where the team sits versus opponents is fact Soap - not 'opinion'.

From memory contested ball #1, tackles top4, - if that isnt by in - I don't know what is.

Doesn't mean they are buying in to what the coach is wanting. Just my opinion
 

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Whilst buy in def includes effort, it also encompasses team work, trusting team mates, putting your body on the line...

Team work IS execution, Putting body on line I gues is captured by winning contested ball and tackles ...
You wanna tell me that Williams, Gov, Doc haven't been pulling short?

No I have been as critical of McGovern and Docherty as anyone else ( including you) and am sure if there were realistic alternatives available they would have been used...although perhaps McGovern has got the message judging by his improved efforts last week...as for Williams again no argument- but these individual 'performances' are nto evidence of the 'team' not buying in - surely?
How many team mates getting burned in favour of bullshit outside banana shots at goal from tight angles?

Again - execution issues and decision issues - surely?
Hospital hbs... setting a team mate up because you don't want to absorb a tackle.

Execution and poor decision making - unfortunately from senior players as well- that isnt lack of buy in through is it?
Players doing sloppy kicks off the ground instead of putting the head over the ball...

Individual brain farts- nothing to do with team buy in - we didnt see this again....
There's next to no work rate to spread, watch the games live, have a look at the "options" being provided... non existent... we take a mark at hb and they're mostly stagnant...

Agreed and one of my biggest complaints - I put that down to a combination of poor transitional coaching and dumb players - this stagnant movement has bothered me for a long time and speaks to a lack of cohesion and drilled movement pattterns - almostas if Carlton has 3 different teams on the field- too kmuch makey-uppy going on - tat is a fair criticism of coaching and players.
d50 setups we look totally lost at times...

Too many players are playing as individuals, not as a cohesive team.

Every team suffers this at one stage or another turnovers cost plenty - and that is Carltons achilles heel because poor execution happens too often - my #1 bugbear.
There's your lack of buy in. A team with belief in the coach's message will see players doing unselfish things for the benefit of the team. It's just not happening.

I agree that not all the team members are playing to an equal level of ability - that doesnt mean that they are mostly playing too ability - I think that is where I disagree with some POV regarding list status.

it seems to me that you (quite rightly) are not happy with certain player's performances - I dont disagree with your observations - but this speaks to my POV - which is that Carlton's list isnt as good as many would like to think. A coach can only reward or punish poor behaviour and punishment usually means dropping the player- all good - unless there are no other viable options.....which is where we are - hence my POV
 
Team work IS execution, Putting body on line I gues is captured by winning contested ball and tackles ...

And not pulling out of contests...

No I have been as critical of McGovern and Docherty as anyone else ( including you) and am sure if there were realistic alternatives available they would have been used...although perhaps McGovern has got the message judging by his improved efforts last week...as for Williams again no argument- but these individual 'performances' are nto evidence of the 'team' not buying in - surely?

I guess we just see it differently. To me, self preservation from so many players is indicative that they're not willing to make the necessary sacrifices to achieve team success.

As for Gov getting the message... I'm not going to be convinced based on a bruise free game against a non competitive team. To his credit though, at least he did play well. Hopefully you're right.

Again - execution issues and decision issues - surely?

Missing a shot at goal by outside banana on a tight angle is low percentage, not execution.

Decision, well if a player is deciding to be selfish, they haven't got a team first mind set have they?

Execution and poor decision making - unfortunately from senior players as well- that isnt lack of buy in through is it?

Again, ties back to what I believe - players not willing to do team thing.

Individual brain farts- nothing to do with team buy in - we didnt see this again....

Happening too often imo. Not just referring to Gov in r1. Motlop is a culprit.

Agreed and one of my biggest complaints - I put that down to a combination of poor transitional coaching and dumb players - this stagnant movement has bothered me for a long time and speaks to a lack of cohesion and drilled movement pattterns - almostas if Carlton has 3 different teams on the field- too kmuch makey-uppy going on - tat is a fair criticism of coaching and players.

I have never advocated that players shouldn't be held accountable for this... they most def should too. But we are 4 years in to Voss' tenure and we are seeing the same thing we did in year 1... frustrating to say the least.

Every team suffers this at one stage or another turnovers cost plenty - and that is Carltons achilles heel because poor execution happens too often - my #1 bugbear.

Form drop offs from time to time, sure... but again the way I see it, 4 years in now and there's just no overall improvement in these areas.

I agree that not all the team members are playing to an equal level of ability - that doesnt mean that they are mostly playing too ability - I think that is where I disagree with some POV regarding list status.

it seems to me that you (quite rightly) are not happy with certain player's performances - I dont disagree with your observations - but this speaks to my POV - which is that Carlton's list isnt as good as many would like to think. A coach can only reward or punish poor behaviour and punishment usually means dropping the player- all good - unless there are no other viable options.....which is where we are - hence my POV

Our list has quite a few holes... midfield mix, inept/invisible small forwards, half backs with dash and footskills, KPD...

I can't recall any time Voss has put his foot down and dropped an underperforming senior player... the lack of depth isn't the reason why he shouldn't be doing this. Like I mentioned in another thread... we had many significant injuries when we went on our 2023 run and we still managed to beat top 4 teams.

I believe this was achieved through the playing group having full buy in, the selfish plays weren't happening, squad mentality was there, next man up was trusted to come in and perform and they did. It was team first play. Even start of last year, no Weitering for the first 3 games, freaking Young filled in and did his job well... including when we beat Brisbane at the Gabba... We'll never know if we have coverage if we never try.
 

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Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 3


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