Remove this Banner Ad

Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 3

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

I feel like this is just hindsight hero type stuff when many, including yourself, said over pre season that we were flying and the best we'd been etc etc, all footy departments finally aligned, coaches and players all on the same page and all the rest of it.

Sheehan and Matthews also said in that segment that there wasn't a single Carlton player who would get a game at Brisbane... Just nonsense hyperbole from two ancient relics trying to generate some headlines and top up their retirement funds.

Never said that. I said we looked good on track and players were training well

Happy to have different opinions but please don't say I said things that are factually incorrect

PS The last line is wrong and disrespectful
 
There seemed to be a fair bit of bias in Sheehan’s opinion, listing players from our 95 premiership team as if we had just bought them from interstate like we did in the 80s.
McKay and Camporeale were National Draft picks, Earl Spalding was a trade with the Dee’s for pick 5. Pearce and Clape were both delisted by their clubs and we got them in the PSD.

Some of his criticism is certainly valid, but you can’t take it too seriously when his bias means his take is factually incorrect.
 

Log in to remove this Banner Ad

I merely raise the point as if we don’t learn from history we are doomed to repeat it.

I’m sure in in 1974 (30 years after their last flag) Fitzroy thought they’d never fold.
The way the AFL is set up, no established club will fold
 
Both out of contract end of this year
Bit of debate over an auto extension clause for McGovern. Very much hoping this is not true. His best is very good, but our developing players should go past him pretty quickly. Kemp and O’Keeffe both make more sense 3rd tall with differing levers forward, they are long term staples where Gov would probably be looking at his last contract. Similarly, Haynes is a better third tall at least short term and we need room for O’Farrell and likely Dean to develop down back. He has a reduced contract, but likely still on decent money. Voss or a similar coach fixated on the experienced guys would have trouble leaving him out.

For mine, we will struggle to create enough list spots using commonsense not to throw out the baby with the bath water in areas we have questionable depth. Given that MM has ready to play alternatives at either end, it makes sense to part with someone who is at best description, inconsistent.

Orazio is a whole other conversation. We have our history of players too often injured. Surely it makes sense to move past Fantasia, yet at the same time he is probably the second small forward picked when fit. Can we move him on when he is automatically preferred to the other options. Fog and Durds are contracted and clearly in the mix, even a staple under the current regime. Along with Fantasia, White, Evans and MSD addition Young are out of contract. We have to “lose” two players to bring us back to our quota after White and Young were LTI replacements. All named can be adequate to varying degrees, but are not commanding spots. Do we part with the injury prone bloke who is a demonstrably more complete player? A bit of dejavu here?
 
Bit of debate over an auto extension clause for McGovern. Very much hoping this is not true. His best is very good, but our developing players should go past him pretty quickly. Kemp and O’Keeffe both make more sense 3rd tall with differing levers forward, they are long term staples where Gov would probably be looking at his last contract. Similarly, Haynes is a better third tall at least short term and we need room for O’Farrell and likely Dean to develop down back. He has a reduced contract, but likely still on decent money. Voss or a similar coach fixated on the experienced guys would have trouble leaving him out.

For mine, we will struggle to create enough list spots using commonsense not to throw out the baby with the bath water in areas we have questionable depth. Given that MM has ready to play alternatives at either end, it makes sense to part with someone who is at best description, inconsistent.

Orazio is a whole other conversation. We have our history of players too often injured. Surely it makes sense to move past Fantasia, yet at the same time he is probably the second small forward picked when fit. Can we move him on when he is automatically preferred to the other options. Fog and Durds are contracted and clearly in the mix, even a staple under the current regime. Along with Fantasia, White, Evans and MSD addition Young are out of contract. We have to “lose” two players to bring us back to our quota after White and Young were LTI replacements. All named can be adequate to varying degrees, but are not commanding spots. Do we part with the injury prone bloke who is a demonstrably more complete player? A bit of dejavu here?
I'm personally against keeping Fantasia. Obviously very talented when fit but it's clear we are just never going to see that. Has had a couple of years and overall output has been poor. Will be 30 in September as well so don't see his injury run improving. We have too many small forwards on the list and for me he and Evans are obviously candidates to be moved on at the minimum.

On McGovern I wasn't aware of a potential trigger which may take the decision out of our hands. Wouldn't be against keeping him on a very low salary deal but he would compete with Kemp for that 3rd forward spot imo. Really not liking his time in defence this year and despise the four talls. Weitering, Silvagni and Haynes all clearly ahead for me. Cowan/Newman as medium defenders better back there. And then we have HOF/Dean coming through.
 
I’ve said this elsewhere - in 1944 Fitzroy were on top of the heap of the VFL, they had just won the premiership, they had won more premierships (eight) than any other team - 50 years later they were no more.

In 1995 Carlton found themselves in the same position as Fitzroy of 1944.

Granted it’s only 30 years, but as we know how quickly that 30 years went, the next 20 will go even more quickly.

The clock is ticking.

Maybe so - but could be strongly encouraged to relocate.

All I’m saying is that we keep going the way we are we may perhaps not fold - but we’ll be reduced to celebrating the 2023 season by way of a 10 DVD boxed set.

🙄


 
There seemed to be a fair bit of bias in Sheehan’s opinion, listing players from our 95 premiership team as if we had just bought them from interstate like we did in the 80s.
McKay and Camporeale were National Draft picks, Earl Spalding was a trade with the Dee’s for pick 5. Pearce and Clape were both delisted by their clubs and we got them in the PSD.

Some of his criticism is certainly valid, but you can’t take it too seriously when his bias means his take is factually incorrect.
This talk of still being reliant on buying players... like really what was that SOS gutting of the list all about - 2015 ans 2018 spoons were all about getting young players in

As you say, some criticism is warranted, but in other circumstances it sounds like those commentaors are stuck in the past
 
Last edited:
This talk of still being reliant on buying players... like really what was that SOS gutting of the list all about - 2015 ans 2018 spoons were all about getting young players in

As you say, some criticism is warranted, but in other circumstances it sounds like thos ecopmmentaors are stuck in the past


Buying players - was the modus operandi for the VFL up until the 90's, whether it was a for 4 clean shirts or a new Commodore that's what was done by all clubs - it was as they say "the List Management of the time".

Right now the way to manage a list is to either Draft for players, trade for players or list players that have been discarded by other clubs, or buy free or restricted agents - but apparently buying players is seen to be cheating.

But like cheating, hey only Carlton bought players. :rolleyes:
 

Remove this Banner Ad

There seemed to be a fair bit of bias in Sheehan’s opinion, listing players from our 95 premiership team as if we had just bought them from interstate like we did in the 80s.
McKay and Camporeale were National Draft picks, Earl Spalding was a trade with the Dee’s for pick 5. Pearce and Clape were both delisted by their clubs and we got them in the PSD.

Some of his criticism is certainly valid, but you can’t take it too seriously when his bias means his take is factually incorrect.

And even if we did buy players from Interstate in the 80's we did so perfectly legally under the Form Four rules at the time so stop your whinging Mike Sheahan. :rolleyes:
 
And even if we did buy players from Interstate in the 80's we did so perfectly legally under the Form Four rules at the time so stop your whinging Mike Sheahan. :rolleyes:

He didn't say it wasn't legal. Just that the system changed and we were last to change with it

Maybe listen first before getting personal and making false allegations
 
He didn't say it wasn't legal. Just that the system changed and we were last to change with it

Maybe listen first before getting personal and making false allegations


I wasn’t having a go at you nor was I disagreeing with the fact that we were the last team to change from the old ways of doing things.

What I was taking issue with is the inference that Sheahan makes (which fuels the narrative) that our successes of our run of flags between 1968-1995, was somehow bought or tainted - when in fact it was the way things were done at the time - and at the time the best teams were Carlton, Richmond, Hawthorn, Essendon and to a lesser degree Collingwood.
 
I feel like this is just hindsight hero type stuff when many, including yourself, said over pre season that we were flying and the best we'd been etc etc, all footy departments finally aligned, coaches and players all on the same page and all the rest of it.

Sheehan and Matthews also said in that segment that there wasn't a single Carlton player who would get a game at Brisbane... Just nonsense hyperbole from two ancient relics trying to generate some headlines and top up their retirement funds.
Maybe mark Jacko Jackson was right…
 
I was goal umpiring for our local U13 side (here in EDEN) and during breaks got talking to a kid (might be 18yr) from Bega/Tathra team. Said he was talked into playing football by Zac Williams. Family very close with Zac.

Kid said if Zac ever leaves Carlton other than by retirement he will quit the Blues.
Otherwise he was pretty upfront and happy about supporting the blues.

The kid was hitting low fast kicks on target. I just stood there admiring the skill, hoping to see it from Carlton players
 

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

Geez the club did a terrible job of managing expectations in the off-season.

We were always going to go backwards this year. What, did people think Cripps was going to go better than 46 Brownlow votes? That having less depth would make the team better?

Yet it seems the players as much as supporters believed the hype, believed they were just about to win a premiership despite absolutely zero evidence that this was, or had ever been, a premiership contenders.

Round 1 we had no Charlie, a half baked McKay, and underdone Walsh and we lost narrowly to a plucky Richmond team who ran over the top of us late.

From that moment on the club has allowed a sense of catastrophe to hover over everything. And for what? Because we will likely finish 11th? In a year where we have had basically no McKay, barely any Walsh, no Newman, and had to rely far too much on a bunch of kids and rookie list topups. Utterly zero perspective.

But the fans have been toxic, the players lost interest, and now everyone wants out.

Time for someone to show some leadership. Stick with the plan. We threw out veterans last year and it hurt us. By the flipside is we clear big cap space this year with TDK, Docherty, and Williams contracts coming off, we resign Silvagni, tell everyone else to hold their horses, spend on some free agents and mature bodies. Take the three good quality draftees (TDK pick, Dean, Ison). Keep cap space for the future as well. Play the game Collingwood and Sydney and Geelong have played, with patience.

Remember - If you thought this team was a premiership contender in 2025 and you are disappointed with 11th or 12th, then guess what -we can bring back the same core next year with a better supporting cast and try again. If you thought we lacked depth and need more, guess what - we have cap space, draft picks and am off season to rehabilitate and prepare coming up. Both of those paths require perspective and patience.

Just for once I want the club to hold its nerve, not panic, and just make smart, careful moves. But I know - things are never as bad as they seem, unless you are Carlton, in which case it is a million times worse and you have to be in constant crisis, apparently...
 
Geez the club did a terrible job of managing expectations in the off-season.

We were always going to go backwards this year. What, did people think Cripps was going to go better than 46 Brownlow votes? That having less depth would make the team better?

Yet it seems the players as much as supporters believed the hype, believed they were just about to win a premiership despite absolutely zero evidence that this was, or had ever been, a premiership contenders.

Round 1 we had no Charlie, a half baked McKay, and underdone Walsh and we lost narrowly to a plucky Richmond team who ran over the top of us late.

From that moment on the club has allowed a sense of catastrophe to hover over everything. And for what? Because we will likely finish 11th? In a year where we have had basically no McKay, barely any Walsh, no Newman, and had to rely far too much on a bunch of kids and rookie list topups. Utterly zero perspective.

But the fans have been toxic, the players lost interest, and now everyone wants out.

Time for someone to show some leadership. Stick with the plan. We threw out veterans last year and it hurt us. By the flipside is we clear big cap space this year with TDK, Docherty, and Williams contracts coming off, we resign Silvagni, tell everyone else to hold their horses, spend on some free agents and mature bodies. Take the three good quality draftees (TDK pick, Dean, Ison). Keep cap space for the future as well. Play the game Collingwood and Sydney and Geelong have played, with patience.

Remember - If you thought this team was a premiership contender in 2025 and you are disappointed with 11th or 12th, then guess what -we can bring back the same core next year with a better supporting cast and try again. If you thought we lacked depth and need more, guess what - we have cap space, draft picks and am off season to rehabilitate and prepare coming up. Both of those paths require perspective and patience.

Just for once I want the club to hold its nerve, not panic, and just make smart, careful moves. But I know - things are never as bad as they seem, unless you are Carlton, in which case it is a million times worse and you have to be in constant crisis, apparently...
For me that's POTY
 
Geez the club did a terrible job of managing expectations in the off-season.

We were always going to go backwards this year. What, did people think Cripps was going to go better than 46 Brownlow votes? That having less depth would make the team better?

Yet it seems the players as much as supporters believed the hype, believed they were just about to win a premiership despite absolutely zero evidence that this was, or had ever been, a premiership contenders.

Round 1 we had no Charlie, a half baked McKay, and underdone Walsh and we lost narrowly to a plucky Richmond team who ran over the top of us late.

From that moment on the club has allowed a sense of catastrophe to hover over everything. And for what? Because we will likely finish 11th? In a year where we have had basically no McKay, barely any Walsh, no Newman, and had to rely far too much on a bunch of kids and rookie list topups. Utterly zero perspective.

But the fans have been toxic, the players lost interest, and now everyone wants out.

Time for someone to show some leadership. Stick with the plan. We threw out veterans last year and it hurt us. By the flipside is we clear big cap space this year with TDK, Docherty, and Williams contracts coming off, we resign Silvagni, tell everyone else to hold their horses, spend on some free agents and mature bodies. Take the three good quality draftees (TDK pick, Dean, Ison). Keep cap space for the future as well. Play the game Collingwood and Sydney and Geelong have played, with patience.

Remember - If you thought this team was a premiership contender in 2025 and you are disappointed with 11th or 12th, then guess what -we can bring back the same core next year with a better supporting cast and try again. If you thought we lacked depth and need more, guess what - we have cap space, draft picks and am off season to rehabilitate and prepare coming up. Both of those paths require perspective and patience.

Just for once I want the club to hold its nerve, not panic, and just make smart, careful moves. But I know - things are never as bad as they seem, unless you are Carlton, in which case it is a million times worse and you have to be in constant crisis, apparently...
Had to create an account to +1 this. I went into this year expecting an 8th-12th finish. We barely scraped into finals last year, and did nothing but shed best 22 players in the off season. People relying on 'natural improvement', well that's what every club gets.
 
Geez the club did a terrible job of managing expectations in the off-season.

We were always going to go backwards this year. What, did people think Cripps was going to go better than 46 Brownlow votes? That having less depth would make the team better?

Yet it seems the players as much as supporters believed the hype, believed they were just about to win a premiership despite absolutely zero evidence that this was, or had ever been, a premiership contenders.

Round 1 we had no Charlie, a half baked McKay, and underdone Walsh and we lost narrowly to a plucky Richmond team who ran over the top of us late.

From that moment on the club has allowed a sense of catastrophe to hover over everything. And for what? Because we will likely finish 11th? In a year where we have had basically no McKay, barely any Walsh, no Newman, and had to rely far too much on a bunch of kids and rookie list topups. Utterly zero perspective.

But the fans have been toxic, the players lost interest, and now everyone wants out.

Time for someone to show some leadership. Stick with the plan. We threw out veterans last year and it hurt us. By the flipside is we clear big cap space this year with TDK, Docherty, and Williams contracts coming off, we resign Silvagni, tell everyone else to hold their horses, spend on some free agents and mature bodies. Take the three good quality draftees (TDK pick, Dean, Ison). Keep cap space for the future as well. Play the game Collingwood and Sydney and Geelong have played, with patience.

Remember - If you thought this team was a premiership contender in 2025 and you are disappointed with 11th or 12th, then guess what -we can bring back the same core next year with a better supporting cast and try again. If you thought we lacked depth and need more, guess what - we have cap space, draft picks and am off season to rehabilitate and prepare coming up. Both of those paths require perspective and patience.

Just for once I want the club to hold its nerve, not panic, and just make smart, careful moves. But I know - things are never as bad as they seem, unless you are Carlton, in which case it is a million times worse and you have to be in constant crisis, apparently...

You can't call the fans toxic because they are angry and frustrated. They aren't the same thing.

Although you and I and others could see that we were not adding to our squad in any meaningful way to address our deficiencies, others thought that with a healthier list we could replicate the 2023 run. Wiser heads probably saw that 2023 was a season of two halves and required a crisis meeting to flick a switch, but even then, by the time we got a couple of rounds out from finals, our form started falling away, and we battled through two finals, without the run and belief of the winning streak.

The club sold hope and the fans were left heartbroken. I can't blame them. Such a long time for so many fans to live with failure and false dawns. Some only have a handful of spoons in their memory banks. I reckon we can be a bit gentler on those supporters.

What is holding your nerve and not panicking? If they make a move one person doesn't like, it will be considered panicking. For someone else it will be a smart, careful move. We are all slaves to our own opinions.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 3


Write your reply...

Remove this Banner Ad

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

Back
Top