Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 3

[Blue By Blood]

POTY
B&F has always been irrelevant for mine.
More often than not used by coaches as a tool to justify their decisions … rightly or wrongly.
Someone wins the B&F at wooden spoon clubs every season … so what … who cares !!
A midfield including Cripps, Cerra and Hewett doesn’t cut the mustard.
Tough clubs make tough decisions.
We live in hope …

The point I was making which a few seemed to gloss over on purpose or simply misinterpreted.. that clearly if he finished that high (rightly or wrongly) then the coaching group rate him by whatever metrics they have in place to value player performance. That's pretty much an indisputable fact. Which goes back to the point that it will be hard for him to be displaced from the team. Even if the BnF count is to justify a coaches decisions then that just further proves the point that he will be hard to dislodge from the team. Now clearly some want Lord in over Cerra and that's fine but it doesn't mean the facts need to be ignored. Coaches do develop favourites and Cerra is obviously very rated internally.

Should he have finished 3rd in the BnF. Probably not. I would have had him somewhere around that mark though because like you say it was a very lean year from pretty much the whole squad.

A midfield group of Cripps, Cerra, and Hewett doesn't cut the mustard with our current terrible ball movement. I'd expect it to look improved with a more dynamic system of ball movement though. Plus it won't always be those 3.. hopefully we rotate deeper than we have previously and keep our players fresh. Walsh Jagga, Lord will spend good chunks there. There are also some other guys who will/should get some bursts on ball. I don't completely buy into the midfield being crap when more often than not it comes down to ball movement. The Hawks in the prelim this year had Newcombe, Worpel, Ward.. are they significantly better kicks or players than the three we have been mentioning? Or are they able to play their roles and look good enough because of how the Hawks move the ball? I guess we will get a better look at that once we see how the team goes playing a new style. Then we can work out the right mix and who can and who can't take us further.

 

[Red Bull]

The point I was making which a few seemed to gloss over on purpose or simply misinterpreted.. that clearly if he finished that high (rightly or wrongly) then the coaching group rate him by whatever metrics they have in place to value player performance. That's pretty much an indisputable fact. Which goes back to the point that it will be hard for him to be displaced from the team. Even if the BnF count is to justify a coaches decisions then that just further proves the point that he will be hard to dislodge from the team. Now clearly some want Lord in over Cerra and that's fine but it doesn't mean the facts need to be ignored. Coaches do develop favourites and Cerra is obviously very rated internally.

Should he have finished 3rd in the BnF. Probably not. I would have had him somewhere around that mark though because like you say it was a very lean year from pretty much the whole squad.

A midfield group of Cripps, Cerra, and Hewett doesn't cut the mustard with our current terrible ball movement. I'd expect it to look improved with a more dynamic system of ball movement though. Plus it won't always be those 3.. hopefully we rotate deeper than we have previously and keep our players fresh. Walsh Jagga, Lord will spend good chunks there. There are also some other guys who will/should get some bursts on ball. I don't completely buy into the midfield being crap when more often than not it comes down to ball movement. The Hawks in the prelim this year had Newcombe, Worpel, Ward.. are they significantly better kicks or players than the three we have been mentioning? Or are they able to play their roles and look good enough because of how the Hawks move the ball? I guess we will get a better look at that once we see how the team goes playing a new style. Then we can work out the right mix and who can and who can't take us further.

I agree with your main point, like i do with most of your posting here, that his B&F finish would see him hard to displace from the team.
Just another issue with the B&F concept IMO.
Personally, Hewett, not Cerra, is the one I’d be looking to phase out in favour of more game time for Lord but again, his B&F finish won’t allow for this.
I’d love to see the B&F concept done away with altogether.
It’s primarily individual in a team sport and can be used manipulatively in so many ways to achieve desired outcomes.
Hoping Walsh commits sooner rather than later, looking forward to Smith and hoping for more of Lord with Cripps and Cerra providing the experience.
It will ultimately be all to no avail though if Voss and his coaching team don’t get their acts together …

 

[Coona Blues]

I agree with your main point, like i do with most of your posting here, that his B&F finish would see him hard to displace from the team.
Just another issue with the B&F concept IMO.
Personally, Hewett, not Cerra, is the one I’d be looking to phase out in favour of more game time for Lord but again, his B&F finish won’t allow for this.
I’d love to see the B&F concept done away with altogether.
It’s primarily individual in a team sport and can be used manipulatively in so many ways to achieve desired outcomes.
Hoping Walsh commits sooner rather than later, looking forward to Smith and hoping for more of Lord with Cripps and Cerra providing the experience.
It will ultimately be all to no avail though if Voss and his coaching team don’t get their acts together …

There will be a massive test of our coaching/management group in the coming couple of years.

Cripps, Hewett, Cerra and Walsh are top level players in their own right. They are all first string mids and will be for at least a couple more years. Unfortunately, as a group, they are somewhat pedestrian, and more importantly, do not work hard enough defensively, in terms of ground coverage.

We have Jagga Smith, likely to add a new dimension in ball movement very soon. While some here are less than complimentary, Cooper Lord has already shown a combative nature, a willingness to work both ways, a distinguishable upgrade athletically on Cripps and Hewett, possibly Cerra too. His disposal and vision is absolutely an upgrade. Lord’s ability to identify and hit forward targets has been undersold by many here. I also expect Ben Camporeale to put together a massive case for senior selection in the near future. Cody Walker the following season is a star in the making, although it will not be a huge problem if he has to do an apprenticeship before going inside.

With pinch hitters like Zac Williams, and to a lesser extent Motlop, Fogarty and Evans joined by Ainsworth and possibly Chesser we are nit short of options. Then I can mention Moir, who is ready for some time in the guts and Ison likely to be considered and option in the future. Both are bigger bodies who can complement a more mobile midfield group.

The way the game has gone, we are very likely to have to change up our mix, meaning some of the “veterans” are going to have their tenure questioned. The advent of a Tassie team may offer an opportunity for a couple of inside “hard men” a good superannuation pay day with the franchise. The market for pedestrian inside bulls is diminishing, so surely we would look at the possibility of obtaining some draft collateral from our senior group.

I do not want to disrespect our senior mids, but something has to give to add run, disposal ability and defensive work rate to our group. Surely the times of deploying wingers to cover defensively for the entire midfield is outdated. We need our outside players to be greater offensive options.

 

[Red Bull]

There will be a massive test of our coaching/management group in the coming couple of years.

Cripps, Hewett, Cerra and Walsh are top level players in their own right. They are all first string mids and will be for at least a couple more years. Unfortunately, as a group, they are somewhat pedestrian, and more importantly, do not work hard enough defensively, in terms of ground coverage.

We have Jagga Smith, likely to add a new dimension in ball movement very soon. While some here are less than complimentary, Cooper Lord has already shown a combative nature, a willingness to work both ways, a distinguishable upgrade athletically on Cripps and Hewett, possibly Cerra too. His disposal and vision is absolutely an upgrade. Lord’s ability to identify and hit forward targets has been undersold by many here. I also expect Ben Camporeale to put together a massive case for senior selection in the near future. Cody Walker the following season is a star in the making, although it will not be a huge problem if he has to do an apprenticeship before going inside.

With pinch hitters like Zac Williams, and to a lesser extent Motlop, Fogarty and Evans joined by Ainsworth and possibly Chesser we are nit short of options. Then I can mention Moir, who is ready for some time in the guts and Ison likely to be considered and option in the future. Both are bigger bodies who can complement a more mobile midfield group.

The way the game has gone, we are very likely to have to change up our mix, meaning some of the “veterans” are going to have their tenure questioned. The advent of a Tassie team may offer an opportunity for a couple of inside “hard men” a good superannuation pay day with the franchise. The market for pedestrian inside bulls is diminishing, so surely we would look at the possibility of obtaining some draft collateral from our senior group.

I do not want to disrespect our senior mids, but something has to give to add run, disposal ability and defensive work rate to our group. Surely the times of deploying wingers to cover defensively for the entire midfield is outdated. We need our outside players to be greater offensive options.

Your appraisal of Lord is right on the money Coona.
Feel his elevation is needed in the evolution of the team going forward.
Hoping the new faces in the football department add some steel where and when it counts …

 

[yibbida]

Cooper Lord has already shown a combative nature, a willingness to work both ways, a distinguishable upgrade athletically on Cripps

I know it's the off-season, but lol.

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

There will be a massive test of our coaching/management group in the coming couple of years.

Cripps, Hewett, Cerra and Walsh are top level players in their own right. They are all first string mids and will be for at least a couple more years. Unfortunately, as a group, they are somewhat pedestrian, and more importantly, do not work hard enough defensively, in terms of ground coverage.

We have Jagga Smith, likely to add a new dimension in ball movement very soon. While some here are less than complimentary, Cooper Lord has already shown a combative nature, a willingness to work both ways, a distinguishable upgrade athletically on Cripps and Hewett, possibly Cerra too. His disposal and vision is absolutely an upgrade. Lord’s ability to identify and hit forward targets has been undersold by many here. I also expect Ben Camporeale to put together a massive case for senior selection in the near future. Cody Walker the following season is a star in the making, although it will not be a huge problem if he has to do an apprenticeship before going inside.

With pinch hitters like Zac Williams, and to a lesser extent Motlop, Fogarty and Evans joined by Ainsworth and possibly Chesser we are nit short of options. Then I can mention Moir, who is ready for some time in the guts and Ison likely to be considered and option in the future. Both are bigger bodies who can complement a more mobile midfield group.

The way the game has gone, we are very likely to have to change up our mix, meaning some of the “veterans” are going to have their tenure questioned. The advent of a Tassie team may offer an opportunity for a couple of inside “hard men” a good superannuation pay day with the franchise. The market for pedestrian inside bulls is diminishing, so surely we would look at the possibility of obtaining some draft collateral from our senior group.

I do not want to disrespect our senior mids, but something has to give to add run, disposal ability and defensive work rate to our group. Surely the times of deploying wingers to cover defensively for the entire midfield is outdated. We need our outside players to be greater offensive options.

I really don't see what Cerra brings for us - even when he gets plenty of the ball nothing really dynamic happens, I would be looking to play Lord and Smith (potentially Ison) ahead of him in 2026.

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

The point I was making which a few seemed to gloss over on purpose or simply misinterpreted.. that clearly if he finished that high (rightly or wrongly) then the coaching group rate him by whatever metrics they have in place to value player performance. That's pretty much an indisputable fact. Which goes back to the point that it will be hard for him to be displaced from the team. Even if the BnF count is to justify a coaches decisions then that just further proves the point that he will be hard to dislodge from the team. Now clearly some want Lord in over Cerra and that's fine but it doesn't mean the facts need to be ignored. Coaches do develop favourites and Cerra is obviously very rated internally.

Should he have finished 3rd in the BnF. Probably not. I would have had him somewhere around that mark though because like you say it was a very lean year from pretty much the whole squad.

A midfield group of Cripps, Cerra, and Hewett doesn't cut the mustard with our current terrible ball movement. I'd expect it to look improved with a more dynamic system of ball movement though. Plus it won't always be those 3.. hopefully we rotate deeper than we have previously and keep our players fresh. Walsh Jagga, Lord will spend good chunks there. There are also some other guys who will/should get some bursts on ball. I don't completely buy into the midfield being crap when more often than not it comes down to ball movement. The Hawks in the prelim this year had Newcombe, Worpel, Ward.. are they significantly better kicks or players than the three we have been mentioning? Or are they able to play their roles and look good enough because of how the Hawks move the ball? I guess we will get a better look at that once we see how the team goes playing a new style. Then we can work out the right mix and who can and who can't take us further.

" Coaches do develop favourites and Cerra is obviously very rated internally." My question would be - what is one word that sums up Cerra - Cripps is a "beast", Walsh just "runs", Hewett is "reliable" - to me Cerra is "nothing"

 

[Blue By Blood]

" Coaches do develop favourites and Cerra is obviously very rated internally." My question would be - what is one word that sums up Cerra - Cripps is a "beast", Walsh just "runs", Hewett is "reliable" - to me Cerra is "nothing"

I agree he is a bit bland. At his best he should be a bit of a hybrid- Cripps lite in terms of beast/contested work but more capable on the outside. But he tends to not use his weapons as effectively as he should so he's a bit vanilla.

But he is clearly rated by the coaches etc so that's the main point I've been making.

 

[agro]

" Coaches do develop favourites and Cerra is obviously very rated internally." My question would be - what is one word that sums up Cerra - Cripps is a "beast", Walsh just "runs", Hewett is "reliable" - to me Cerra is "nothing"

A bit like Nick Bargatze’s take on George Washington Adam Cerra needs to come up with his own word, and “nothing”, “vanilla” and “bland” shouldn’t be any of them.

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

A bit like Nick Bargatze’s take on George Washington Adam Cerra needs to come up with his own word, and “nothing”, “vanilla” and “bland” shouldn’t be any of them.

Well what should it be? He has 23 goals in in 62 games at Carlton, his career best season as far as disposals go his 25.4, he averages 3 clearances a game across is career and just 4.4 score involvements plus 311m gained - what area is he excelling in?

 

[agro]

Well what should it be? He has 23 goals in in 62 games at Carlton, his career best season as far as disposals go his 25.4, he averages 3 clearances a game across is career and just 4.4 score involvements plus 311m gained - what area is he excelling in?

I’m agreeing with you - at this stage of his career words like vanilla and bland shouldn’t be defining his contribution.

 

[Garters]

Well what should it be? He has 23 goals in in 62 games at Carlton, his career best season as far as disposals go his 25.4, he averages 3 clearances a game across is career and just 4.4 score involvements plus 311m gained - what area is he excelling in?

Creating angst on bigfooty he seems to be performing well at.

 

[M_I_G]

He’s just a player
Nothing special to his game
Genuinely didn’t notice him missing when lord stepped in
But the pay packet disparity..

 

[TerryWallet]

Bit of chatter on the mids. My 2 cents:

Cripps: Has been mixing elite seasons with just good to average seasons the last 5 or so years. I have never been able to lay the champion tag on Crippa because his skills are largely awful, but his will is unbelievable along with his size. His greatness is like AC/DC, what he does great, he does great, but he only has his 1 wood basically. And what he can't do has always hurt us a bit in my opinion. Very hard to talk him down because he is individually one of our greatest ever, but his weaknesses do hurt us imo. Is there such a thing as a flawed champion?

Hewett: A very good AFL player imo. He should be a perfect No3 or even No4 mid in a top finals playing team. The fact that he was our No1 mid last year is an indictment on others, but a credit to him. Happy to have him running out in my team.

Cerra: This is the one that has let us down. He was traded for to be a Top player. But he just hasn't produced. Just never looks in dynamic shape. Never looks in the nick where you're confident he's gonna rip a season apart like you'd hope from a twice rated Top 7 Pick. Has always just been a soldier. An un-match fit soldier.

Lord: To be honest, i don't see it with Lord, above being a depth soldier. He finds the ball alright, but i'm yet to have that light bulb moment of "yeah, he's got it". I hope he can rise above that, but at best i think he can dream of reaching Hewett's level.

Walsh: This is the elite player we need back. What a star he was early on. Then the terrible back stuff where he just looked heavy legged for obvious reasons. By geez, he looks back to his flying best in vision this preseason though. Once again there is bounce in his movement. A big difference maker for us obviously.

Smith: Too early to comment yet obviously, but he promises to be the nimbler type star our midfield craves. The bash and crash left to Cripps and George and the athleticism, spread and connection to Walsh and Jagga.

Of course Walker will also add to the Walsh and Jagga duo next year.

They are our core mids. It hasn't worked before as a unit when it was Crippa, Hewett, Cerra, a hurting or not there Walsh and Kennedy. No dynamism there.

But with a better nick Walsh and Jagga, playing alongside Crippa and a ripping nick Hewett, i think its much more AFL competitive.

I see those 4 as the main mids, with Cerra and Lord to compete for the 5th mid.

And of course Walker to come next year.

Of course a much improved coaching performance will help all too. Whether we get that this year or next is to be seen.

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

I’m agreeing with you - at this stage of his career words like vanilla and bland shouldn’t be defining his contribution.

So again what word would you associate with him?

 

[agro]

So again what word would you associate with him?

my point although maybe obtuse is that Adam Cerra should now be focussed on lifting his performance and output so the terms vanilla and bland are no longer applicable.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Wanted to say that Jacob weitering

23

Jacob Weitering

Age

28

Ht

195cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.8

4star

K

9.1

4star

HB

4.7

3star

M

5.6

5star

T

1.3

3star

MG

189.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

16.8

4star

K

10.8

4star

HB

6.0

4star

M

6.0

5star

T

0.8

3star

MG

263.4

4star

has to be hands down my fav afl player. After learning about him as a person and the work he does helping home shelter German shepherd’s ( i am a huge animal lover myself) I can’t stop thinking what a ripping outstanding man he is.

Just my random drive by 2cents

 

[Gethelred]

Cripps could easily go another 5 years. Pace has never been a big strength. Those guys tend to last longer.

He could... but with the game speeding up and slow legspeed becoming even more of a liability, should he?

 

[SurreyBlue]

He could... but with the game speeding up and slow legspeed becoming even more of a liability, should he?

It’s how many and how you use the inside mids that makes all the difference. We haven’t done either of these very well, especially the last 12 months.

 

[GoBlues!]

It’s how many and how you use the inside mids that makes all the difference. We haven’t done either of these very well, especially the last 12 months.

Exactly. Leg speed, outside run is very important as is quick thinking and disposal skills in getting quicker ball movement in transition. You still need to win the ball at contests to get it in the hands of the outside movers.

You still need inside mids like a Lachie Neale, the issue is not having too many in at the same time - probably a function of our list makeup and recruiting players like Cerra and Hewett types that don’t really complement Cripps and compound the issue.

This will change as we recruit the right types, and even playing Cripps up forward 70% of the time (ala Dangerfield, Fyfe..) will help get the mix right.

 

[circusdevil]

You still need inside mids like a Lachie Neale, the issue is not having too many in at the same time - probably a function of our list makeup and recruiting players like Cerra and Hewett types that don’t really complement Cripps and compound the issue.

This will change as we recruit the right types, and even playing Cripps up forward 70% of the time (ala Dangerfield, Fyfe..) will help get the mix right.

True

 

[Soapy V]

It’s how many and how you use the inside mids that makes all the difference. We haven’t done either of these very well, especially the last 12 months.

I said it start of last year but midfield mix is a major issue for me. The fact people list the Jagga Smith injury as a reason we struggled last year highlights this. Kid hasn’t played 1 game.

This is where good coaching comes in

IMO 2026 is a reset. Games into next gen players

As good as Cripps & Hewett are individually they aren’t both future. Ball use and defensively they are a liability. Good sides expose them. We can’t consistently play both

Cripps is a Carlton great and a warrior. Deserves respect but IMO he is the type whose game could fall away quickly. He doesn’t have the skill set to move elsewhere. It’s inside mid or nothing.

Good sides have a genuine mix in the middle. We can’t play Cripps & Hewett together and be successful.

Walsh Jagga Lord Cerra Chesser Ison Moir BenC etc are the future and it’s vital we let them develop and as a group

If we are truly planning for future then tough decisions need to be made

That’s my take

 

[Red Bull]

Carlton don’t do tough decisions … or even easy ones …

 

[Coona Blues]

I said it start of last year but midfield mix is a major issue for me. The fact people list the Jagga Smith injury as a reason we struggled last year highlights this. Kid hasn’t played 1 game.

This is where good coaching comes in

IMO 2026 is a reset. Games into next gen players

As good as Cripps & Hewett are individually they aren’t both future. Ball use and defensively they are a liability. Good sides expose them. We can’t consistently play both

Cripps is a Carlton great and a warrior. Deserves respect but IMO he is the type whose game could fall away quickly. He doesn’t have the skill set to move elsewhere. It’s inside mid or nothing.

Good sides have a genuine mix in the middle. We can’t play Cripps & Hewett together and be successful.

Walsh Jagga Lord Cerra Chesser Ison Moir BenC etc are the future and it’s vital we let them develop and as a group

If we are truly planning for future then tough decisions need to be made

That’s my take

It will be fascinating to see how management play it.

None of our seniors need to be shifted as individuals, but our mix needs change up and we have kids who will need game time. Smith and Lord are locked in to our future. I suspect we will want to give Ben Campo a decent “taste” he was somewhat “dominant” inside for the twos when available (the main man). Moir and some other small forwards may have a place in the mix, then there is the Elijah conundrum.

I feel we will work hard to consolidate our “outside” mix, flankers and wings. Does Chesser make a spot his own? Where do we play Ollie, both Ollie’s? Do blokes like Acres and Saad (Newy and Haynes too) delay the kid’s development?

Do we place development for Kemp and HOK in front of say McGovern?

Cripps, Weitering and McKay deserve a run at success (along with some others in their “senior” years) We potentially have a better combination/mix, particularly offensively, so I would expect us to start with the BEST team available. At least guve us some good old selection integrity and reward form on the track over perceived staples.

 

[gbatman]

I said it start of last year but midfield mix is a major issue for me. The fact people list the Jagga Smith injury as a reason we struggled last year highlights this. Kid hasn’t played 1 game.

This is where good coaching comes in

IMO 2026 is a reset. Games into next gen players

As good as Cripps & Hewett are individually they aren’t both future. Ball use and defensively they are a liability. Good sides expose them. We can’t consistently play both

Cripps is a Carlton great and a warrior. Deserves respect but IMO he is the type whose game could fall away quickly. He doesn’t have the skill set to move elsewhere. It’s inside mid or nothing.

Good sides have a genuine mix in the middle. We can’t play Cripps & Hewett together and be successful.

Walsh Jagga Lord Cerra Chesser Ison Moir BenC etc are the future and it’s vital we let them develop and as a group

If we are truly planning for future then tough decisions need to be made

That’s my take

I think the solution is to recruit. Go all in on Walker and Butters next year and the biggest issue we have had for the last 5 years is finally solved.

In the short term we will get to use the bigger bench and play an extra forward and rotate forwards through the middle more. Moir, Williams, Smith, Motlop, Byrne, Ison, maybe Hayward and Florrent. I think we pretty much have to have one of the forward rotations in there nearly all the time.

This means some of the one paced and slow onballers have to be dropped out. This is all our onball group apart from Walsh.