Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread

1981

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Oct 21, 2008
Posts
7,192
Likes
6,993
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Andy touched on us (approximately 37 minutes in) not having any specialist small/medium forwards or a small running/lockdown defender on our list, mentioned our recruiting strategy of, first the key position players then midfielders but not recruiting any specialist small forwards and defenders during that time. He thought it was dumbfounding and miles behind the rest of the competition with how the game is played with those type of players, rattled off multiple players other clubs had at their disposal... It's something I've personally haven't been able to understand why we haven't as well, also have never heard it discussed by them on the podcast at all until now but I'm glad it's something they have finally recognised, it deserves to be looked at why?
Hang on. We got Pickett and Garlett both of whom were high picks. Sometimes things don't work out.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Gethelred

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
May 1, 2016
Posts
6,750
Likes
12,530
AFL Club
Carlton
Andy touched on us (approximately 37 minutes in) not having any specialist small/medium forwards or a small running/lockdown defender on our list, mentioned our recruiting strategy of, first the key position players then midfielders but not recruiting any specialist small forwards and defenders during that time. He thought it was dumbfounding and miles behind the rest of the competition with how the game is played with those type of players, rattled off multiple players other clubs had at their disposal... It's something I've personally haven't been able to understand why we haven't as well, also have never heard it discussed by them on the podcast at all until now but I'm glad it's something they have finally recognised, it deserves to be looked at why?
There was a post circulated from the drafts boards a while back - re, a year or so ago - outlining what talent is the hardest to draft and whereabouts in the draft you should draft them in order to succeed, using players taken and where to prove their argument. Basically, you can find small defenders and pockets anywhere in the draft, they're easier to find and to develop than any other position, elite mids and tall forwards being the hardest to find/develop. For every Nat Fyfe/GAblett, there's an absolute glut of midfielders that have become top tier that went inside the top 5, and the KPF thing shouldn't surprise when you consider that, of all the KPF currently playing AFL you have Jenkins, Walker and Brown not having gone inside the first round (off the top of my head).

The question then becomes, why on EARTH did we not get any in, if that's the case? It could be that we were drafting just so many kids that taking on a few more was considered too many; I mean 3 and a bit years on and we're still undersized. If you're asking, why didn't we pick them as we went, we needed the A grade talent while we had access to it; you can certainly trade up in the draft when you're a decent side (or do as Hawthorn have done, and trade out quality youth once you start to fall to get in injured A graders) but in the numbers we needed them and how far we had fallen, that wasn't really an option.

I wanted us to get in Melbourne's Jetta at the end of last season, as he is the best back pocket in the AFL at the moment. He's 30, but he's also classy and has excellent skills; he serves as both rebounder and stopper. He'd get less of the ball than Newman, but we wouldn't leak goals from his position and his skills are better.

There's also the case to be made that there are/were a number of mids turned forward flankers and pockets simply because at AFL level they weren't up to it in the middle. The transition between forward and midfield is not as difficult as elsewhere on the ground; it could very well be that, in the event that SPS/Fisher didn't develop into the midfielders their moving towards, that the pockets/flanks was to be their fate. Both have goalsense, and the ability to find space, albeit in different ways.

It is certainly a lack of ours at the moment, but if the areas we're missing are as glaring as all that, it's pretty easy to see what we'll be focusing on next trade/draft period. It's also thoroughly better than being as good as we were in 2011 without a KPF and failing as much because of that as anything else; KPF don't grow on trees or come cheap. FP and BP's do.
 

Soapy V

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Sep 17, 2015
Posts
19,496
Likes
49,867
AFL Club
Carlton
Why was Fasolo going to take time? Doesn't he have a senior hardened body? And isn't he meant to be fitter than he's ever been?
Missed a lot of football with injury. Hardly played in 18 months and missed most of pre season and we are only at Round 8. I haven't heard anything about him being fitter than ever
 

BlueView

Team Captain
Joined
Oct 13, 2018
Posts
423
Likes
571
AFL Club
Carlton
Round 8 at a new club and he's running out of time?

I wasn't a fan of getting him but at least give him a chance
I am and I have, just pointing out the blantantly obvious he’s on a one year deal if he can’t break into the team the odds aren’t stacked in his favour
 

FitzroyBlueBagger

FitzroyBlueBagger
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Posts
604
Likes
1,197
Location
Fitzroy
AFL Club
Carlton
There was a post circulated from the drafts boards a while back - re, a year or so ago - outlining what talent is the hardest to draft and whereabouts in the draft you should draft them in order to succeed, using players taken and where to prove their argument. Basically, you can find small defenders and pockets anywhere in the draft, they're easier to find and to develop than any other position, elite mids and tall forwards being the hardest to find/develop. For every Nat Fyfe/GAblett, there's an absolute glut of midfielders that have become top tier that went inside the top 5, and the KPF thing shouldn't surprise when you consider that, of all the KPF currently playing AFL you have Jenkins, Walker and Brown not having gone inside the first round (off the top of my head).

The question then becomes, why on EARTH did we not get any in, if that's the case? It could be that we were drafting just so many kids that taking on a few more was considered too many; I mean 3 and a bit years on and we're still undersized. If you're asking, why didn't we pick them as we went, we needed the A grade talent while we had access to it; you can certainly trade up in the draft when you're a decent side (or do as Hawthorn have done, and trade out quality youth once you start to fall to get in injured A graders) but in the numbers we needed them and how far we had fallen, that wasn't really an option.

I wanted us to get in Melbourne's Jetta at the end of last season, as he is the best back pocket in the AFL at the moment. He's 30, but he's also classy and has excellent skills; he serves as both rebounder and stopper. He'd get less of the ball than Newman, but we wouldn't leak goals from his position and his skills are better.

There's also the case to be made that there are/were a number of mids turned forward flankers and pockets simply because at AFL level they weren't up to it in the middle. The transition between forward and midfield is not as difficult as elsewhere on the ground; it could very well be that, in the event that SPS/Fisher didn't develop into the midfielders their moving towards, that the pockets/flanks was to be their fate. Both have goalsense, and the ability to find space, albeit in different ways.

It is certainly a lack of ours at the moment, but if the areas we're missing are as glaring as all that, it's pretty easy to see what we'll be focusing on next trade/draft period. It's also thoroughly better than being as good as we were in 2011 without a KPF and failing as much because of that as anything else; KPF don't grow on trees or come cheap. FP and BP's do.
Nice post... I get the recruiting strategies of why/what we put in place to build the list and understand fully the type of players that are hardest to get and develop, not recruiting any with earlier selections in the draft I'm ok with because of list priorities, but imo more easily obtained or not we are so far behind all clubs in these two areas that it's a serous concern particularly the forwards.
Jetta is a terrific example of the exact type of small player that we need badly to lockdown opposition smalls, he does everything right that a defender needs to have in his game, he's game is so well balanced between defence & attacking 👍
 

Gethelred

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
May 1, 2016
Posts
6,750
Likes
12,530
AFL Club
Carlton
Nice post... I get the recruiting strategies of why/what we put in place to build the list and understand fully the type of players that are hardest to get and develop, not recruiting any with earlier selections in the draft I'm ok with because of list priorities, but imo more easily obtained or not we are so far behind all clubs in these two areas that it's a serous concern particularly the forwards.
Jetta is a terrific example of the exact type of small player that we need badly to lockdown opposition smalls, he does everything right that a defender needs to have in his game, he's game is so well balanced between defence & attacking 👍
It absolutely is a huge concern, you're not wrong, but better to lack for small forwards/back pockets now than to be lacking in elite KPF/elite mids in 4 years. That's the tradeoff; be more general in your rebuild, picking up players to play in each position but to lack in depth in those positions - due to only have 1-2 players per role - compared to having depth in terms of numbers if not quality to date due to development. We have, in no particular order, Dow, Murphy, Cripps, SPS, Setterfield, Kennedy, Jack, Fisher, Walsh, LOB, Stocker, Cuningham (Polson was drafted as a mid, too) who can go through the middle of the ground at any given time, and that's just the smalls. We have enough leeway here to miss a few picks, to not get some right or to have too many that we need to trade some out, both in terms of KPP and in midfielders.

Which then breeds more picks/players of quality coming in, which means more competition for spots in the 22, which means more depth, which means more players traded out, which means more coming in, etc...

Early days, and huuuugely optimistic, but you get where I'm going with this. If we can get the mixture right next year - trade in a Papley/Gresham as well as drafting a series of small forwards, and doing the same down back whilst relying on Williamson, Schumacher, Docherty to be that defensive lockdown and mature leader down back - we could see vast improvement over the space of a single off season. And yes, I know we say that every off season.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

thylacine60

Make me an Admin!
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Posts
83,205
Likes
124,265
Location
Footscray
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Insert Token EPL Club
I fully respect the right of every supporter to make their own decision on whether to stay or leave, but personally I exercise that right by staying to the very end, however bitter. Why? Fwiw, for me there are 3 main reasons (4 if you include that I don’t have anything better to do with my life, but we won’t go there ...):

1) Even in the midst of the worst and most spiritless team performances, imo there are always individual players who are putting in real effort, so I stay to support and show respect for those efforts. On Sunday then, imo the likes of Fish, JSOS, Crippa, Walsh, Daisy and a few others had a real crack throughout, and I wouldn’t feel comfortable turning my back on those players tbh.

2) Beyond showing support, I also don’t leave because I think in doing so I’d be robbing myself of an opportunity to learn some valuable things about the coaches, our game plan (or lack there of), individual players, and the side as a whole.

3) A part of me feels that to deserve and fully experience the highs that the team and club give me, I’m almost morally obliged to fully experience and endure the lows.

Anyway, that’s just my personal take, and I appreciate that other supporters will see things differently.
plus you're still a chance to miss mark or goal of forever - selfish dicks who aren't interested unless we're playing well completely ignore any young player pushing against the odds - not interested? just wanna win? nothing else matters? when we are being pumped is the time I look for something (anything) from the draftees - wonder if anyone will put their hand up and claim they left the ground at halftime round 3, 2007? what a day - I watch us struggle and I'm convinced it adds to my elation when we do show signs of progress - progress you'll never see from your car.....
 

RobR

Club Legend
Joined
Sep 16, 2014
Posts
2,191
Likes
5,189
AFL Club
Carlton
plus you're still a chance to miss mark or goal of forever - selfish dicks who aren't interested unless we're playing well completely ignore any young player pushing against the odds - not interested? just wanna win? nothing else matters? when we are being pumped is the time I look for something (anything) from the draftees - wonder if anyone will put their hand up and claim they left the ground at halftime round 3, 2007? what a day - I watch us struggle and I'm convinced it adds to my elation when we do show signs of progress - progress you'll never see from your car.....
The only game i've ever left early was a game against *, we were 25 points up going into time on in the last as i had to get to a wedding i felt we had it won. By the time i got to my car we had lost thanks to Neil Daniher.
 

CFC18

Team Captain
Joined
Oct 9, 2018
Posts
483
Likes
1,156
AFL Club
Carlton
Hang on. We got Pickett and Garlett both of whom were high picks. Sometimes things don't work out.
Garlett had kicked 10 goals in his two years in the AFL, and 5 goals the year before we drafted him. Pickett hadn't played a senior game in his two years at GWS.

Surprisingly, both their previous years proved more a precursor of what was to come than their original draft position.

SOS took a high risk high reward approach here and we've most definitely suffered because of it.
 

Gethelred

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
May 1, 2016
Posts
6,750
Likes
12,530
AFL Club
Carlton
Garlett had kicked 10 goals in his two years in the AFL, and 5 goals the year before we drafted him. Pickett hadn't played a senior game in his two years at GWS.

Surprisingly, both their previous years proved more a precursor of what was to come than their original draft position.

SOS took a high risk high reward approach here and we've most definitely suffered because of it.
???

What was the risk in taking on those two players? We paid 1/4 of a second for Pickett, and a fourth round pick for Garlett. If anything, it was low risk, high reward.
 

dangerousdane

Premiership Player
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Posts
4,680
Likes
4,875
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Arsenal
Garlett had kicked 10 goals in his two years in the AFL, and 5 goals the year before we drafted him. Pickett hadn't played a senior game in his two years at GWS.

Surprisingly, both their previous years proved more a precursor of what was to come than their original draft position.

SOS took a high risk high reward approach here and we've most definitely suffered because of it.
I think you mean, low risk, high reward.

Garlett was taken with a pick in the 70s, not sure how anyone says thats high risk.
 

thylacine60

Make me an Admin!
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Posts
83,205
Likes
124,265
Location
Footscray
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Insert Token EPL Club
Garlett had kicked 10 goals in his two years in the AFL, and 5 goals the year before we drafted him. Pickett hadn't played a senior game in his two years at GWS.

Surprisingly, both their previous years proved more a precursor of what was to come than their original draft position.

SOS took a high risk high reward approach here and we've most definitely suffered because of it.
 

djw1952

Club Legend
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Posts
1,249
Likes
968
Location
mentone
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
liverpool
Hutchy is a d**khead of grand proportions. A snake who takes potshots at everyone and anyone if it suits him. He always ensures he has the last word, regardless of how much others have disagreed with him. I can't decide who's worse out of him and Barrett tbh
Totally agree with your assessment of hutchy, because he loves muck-raking and trying to suck people in to make a big statement so that he can use it against them down the track. He has no integrity and makes a puddle look deep!!! Imagine if he got his way about wanting access 24/7 to all afl players so that he can make more headlines..........he is a cheap shot imo!!!:mad:
 

CFC18

Team Captain
Joined
Oct 9, 2018
Posts
483
Likes
1,156
AFL Club
Carlton
What was the risk in taking on those two players? We paid 1/4 of a second for Pickett, and a fourth round pick for Garlett. If anything, it was low risk, high reward.
I think you mean, low risk, high reward.

Garlett was taken with a pick in the 70s, not sure how anyone says thats high risk.
No, I meant high risk. The trade picks are not the issue, the opportunity cost is.

Waiting 2-3 years to find out what was advertised is what we would get has meant we've failed to address our small forward stocks, and our results on field are being impacted because of it.
 
Top Bottom