Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread

[Healer]

So you think in 12 months all of a sudden we're going to be a strong position? After what's looking like another wooden spoon.

Its going to happen like a tsunami. The talent we have, the experience they are gaining, the glimpses they are showing.
One more preseason, a few more bodies/minds right and a bit of selective recruiting and I have no doubt.
We have some mature agers in our team but we need to be mindful that most are not in a position or have capability to really lead onfield. With few exceptions.
Doc particularly hasn't been available for two years. Its not just about having mature bodies on the field these last 2 seasons, its mature bodies that lead.
With all due respects, Krooz has hardly been there, Murph, well enough said. Simmo has been battling valiantly, Daisy has been having a crack and showing some real heart. So it has largely been left to Crippa and the young guns.
When you look at some of the other teams that are in process of rebuild to varying degrees, many had mature age leaders available week to week. We didn't.

 

[LFTWNG11]

We offloaded this years pick for 2 late 1sts, knowing we'd use one on Stocker and trade the other for an established player this year.

The club is and was acutely aware of were we are at, as was I.

You do realise that Judd literally said last night they were not expecting to off-load pick 1, but that's is exactly what the cost is looking like. They expected the pick to be between 3-6. This is in line with many supporters expectations... that you previously deemed to be a problem a couple of posts back.

... or alternatively, we wanted Stocker and we acknowledged the liability that trading pick 1-5 can be. You're either trading it for unders - as we would've, had we traded pick 1 for Shiel - or your opponent has to pony something more valuable up alongside it. A first round pick is infinitely more possible to trade, because it lacks the same level of value. Over the last few years, a number of our trades have failed to get over the line because a) we've not wanted to trade out our high picks, and that left us with nowhere to go b) we've been unwilling to overspend on an average player (to our detriment, quite possibly). Both of these issues are gone now; our list situation enables us to (if we have to) pay aggressive overs to get in a player in, and we will now be more willing to deal.

If we're not using the pick, who cares where it falls between 5-20? A pick is only relevant to who it can get; it's value is only apportioned after it is used.

We were not expecting to pay pick 1 - that is confirmed. I actually agree with the deal in any case because 1. I think Stocker is worth it and 2. even if we finish last, there will be no "reward" and the club will have a bitter pill to swallow that may actually drive some innovation at the club (that goes beyond playing 4 talls in defence and 4 talls in the forwardline) but my post was around why are posters who have expectations of not finishing last an issue when the club itself did not expect to finish last?

 

[Arr0w]

You do realise that Judd literally said last night they were not expecting to off-load pick 1, but that's is exactly what the cost is looking like. They expected the pick to be between 3-6. This is in line with many supporters expectations... that you previously deemed to be a problem a couple of posts back.



We were not expecting to pay pick 1 - that is confirmed. I actually agree with the deal in any case because 1. I think Stocker is worth it and 2. even if we finish last, there will be no "reward" and the club will have a bitter pill to swallow that may actually drive some innovation at the club (that goes beyond playing 4 talls in defence and 4 talls in the forwardline) but my post was around why are posters who have expectations of not finishing last an issue when the club itself did not expect to finish last?

The trade has nothing to do with our playing height, zero, nada

 

[rog1995]

Its going to happen like a tsunami. The talent we have, the experience they are gaining, the glimpses they are showing.
One more preseason, a few more bodies/minds right and a bit of selective recruiting and I have no doubt.
We have some mature agers in our team but we need to be mindful that most are not in a position or have capability to really lead onfield. With few exceptions.
Doc particularly hasn't been available for two years. Its not just about having mature bodies on the field these last 2 seasons, its mature bodies that lead.
With all due respects, Krooz has hardly been there, Murph, well enough said. Simmo has been battling valiantly, Daisy has been having a crack and showing some real heart. So it has largely been left to Crippa and the young guns.
When you look at some of the other teams that are in process of rebuild to varying degrees, many had mature age leaders available week to week. We didn't.

I disagree. Our midfield by and large have played the majority of games this year. I'd hate to think what would happen if Cripps got injured for any length of time. As for not having mature mid support. Why wasn't this addressed the last draft when everyone knew that's what we required? We all said this 12 months ago. We needed to provide midfield support to Cripps. We've actually done the opposite by paying Ed in the forward line.

 

[Gethelred]

We were not expecting to pay pick 1 - that is confirmed. I actually agree with the deal in any case because 1. I think Stocker is worth it and 2. even if we finish last, there will be no "reward" and the club will have a bitter pill to swallow that may actually drive some innovation at the club (that goes beyond playing 4 talls in defence and 4 talls in the forwardline) but my post was around why are posters who have expectations of not finishing last an issue when the club itself did not expect to finish last?

See, this is where I think you - and others - are looking at beaten eggs and wondering why there isn't any cake.

Right now - if we're looking at more than list quality - the key difference our list possesses in abundance is contested marking chops. Across the board, there are a good 16-25 prospects - and not all of them KPP - who are better than average for their height, statistically speaking. We've also seen the transformative effects a contested mark has in course of a match; when we've been up and about, our contested marking is the fulcrum for our forward attack, allowing us to move slowly then quickly to a mismatch, with confidence that said mismatch will be won by your Kennedys, your Cripps', your JSOS's, your McGoverns, your Casboults, your Kreuzers, your Fasolos, your Charlies and your McKays. It's about movement and size; when our midfield is on and we're not getting smashed around the ball, we look overpoweringly good due to this aspect of our game.

The sheer number of talls impacts results now, because the midfield is still young and not quite strong enough to bring down AFL size players and/or consistently break free of tackles the way their opponents can; this allows the weaknesses of that extra height to be exposed far, far more, as our kicking becomes less precise and our opposition's kicking is far better than it would be under pressure. It is the role of the coach to twist the levers of the game to provide advantage; increase stoppages, play kick/mark tempo footy, cultivate stoppage setups to negate a quality ruckman/midfielder. If/When this changes, watch the composition of the side become a strength rather than a weakness, as the lever which changes - our talented yet small mids pick up size and power, and for the sake of all that is holy LEARN HOW TO STICK THEIR TACKLES - allows that height/marking power to come to the fore.

 

[Blue and Blue]

Yeah I know, we're going around in circles. It's the way he words his opinions as definites, combined with the eternal optimism, that is incredibly frustrating. I'd hate for our club's higher ups to think in a similar way and have no accountability.

No offence cfc but that is rather silly I have to say.

 

[VeinGlorious]

Our list isnt trash now, but its insanely young. As in 'expansion side in their first year or two' young. We've been fielding 12-14 players in our best 22 each week that are 1st, 2nd or 3rd year players. Most sides field around 4-6 such kids, with the balance made up of seasoned 100 game A grade talent in the 24-28 age bracket, of which we currently lack.

Our midfield barring Cripps is Walsh, Fisher, SPS, Dow and Setters. That's insanely young and inexperienced. Even the Lions have Neale, Zorko, Rich, Lyons and Robinson supporting McLuggage in the guts. We have a bunch of TAC cup kids.

Shut down Cripps and the kids go to water.

Players (regardless of talent) almost invariably take 4 years in the system before they're consistent AFL footballers, and usually dont peak till they're around the age of 26.

If you expected anything else other than what you're seeing this year, its your expectations that are at fault, not the coach. Young sides will get flogged or they'll be in it and fade late (what's happened in every game so far). Occasionally they might catch a side off guard and win.

If you expect our current side at the age profile we have to be doing any better than we have been doing under a different coach, you dont really understand the importance of a core of senior players and the benefit of several preseasons under the belt.

We need to be aggressive with our recruiting of mature talent the next 2 years. Get in some free agents and A grade players and forgoe the draft entirely. Over those 2 years we need to get games and presessons into the kids.

Only then can you change your expectations.

Blaming the coach is the greatest cop out and literally the silliest thing I've seen. It completely misses the fact we're a side playing in diapers.

Spot on. Top post

 

[gbatman]

When playing well which has been 1 or 2 games. He needed to be sent a statement weeks ago, back in the vfl

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

No actually, he's statistically our third best midfielder for the entire season.

Just goes to show how badly our midfield has been performing really.

 

[LFTWNG11]

The trade has nothing to do with our playing height, zero, nada

Well done on completely missing the point, i.e. my comment regarding talls was facetious to my actual point around the club not showing much signs of innovation.

See, this is where I think you - and others - are looking at beaten eggs and wondering why there isn't any cake.

Right now - if we're looking at more than list quality - the key difference our list possesses in abundance is contested marking chops. Across the board, there are a good 16-25 prospects - and not all of them KPP - who are better than average for their height, statistically speaking. We've also seen the transformative effects a contested mark has in course of a match; when we've been up and about, our contested marking is the fulcrum for our forward attack, allowing us to move slowly then quickly to a mismatch, with confidence that said mismatch will be won by your Kennedys, your Cripps', your JSOS's, your McGoverns, your Casboults, your Kreuzers, your Fasolos, your Charlies and your McKays. It's about movement and size; when our midfield is on and we're not getting smashed around the ball, we look overpoweringly good due to this aspect of our game.

The sheer number of talls impacts results now, because the midfield is still young and not quite strong enough to bring down AFL size players and/or consistently break free of tackles the way their opponents can; this allows the weaknesses of that extra height to be exposed far, far more, as our kicking becomes less precise and our opposition's kicking is far better than it would be under pressure. It is the role of the coach to twist the levers of the game to provide advantage; increase stoppages, play kick/mark tempo footy, cultivate stoppage setups to negate a quality ruckman/midfielder. If/When this changes, watch the composition of the side become a strength rather than a weakness, as the lever which changes - our talented yet small mids pick up size and power, and for the sake of all that is holy LEARN HOW TO STICK THEIR TACKLES - allows that height/marking power to come to the fore.

Nice analogy

And I do heed your points, they are valid but we have been playing too tall since pretty much Bolton's second season. This will be his third season of playing too tall and he will potentially have two wooden spoons to show for it. At what point do we assess this game plan and realise it's not going to work? I am not stating one way or another - it's just the consensus among the glass half full brigade is that it will happen, not sure how or when, but it will happen... even though we have 2.5 seasons of developing it for no net result (so far).

If you leave the eggs in the bowl for long enough, they will be rotten and thus no cake.

 

[Neese]

Let's wait until the end of the season and stop throwing up oh noes we are giving up pick 1. Quit wallowing in misery, it's pointless.
This season has a long way to go yet.
Look for positives. It's much more satisfying than being a misery guts.

 

[Arr0w]

Well done on completely missing the point, i.e. my comment regarding talls was facetious to my actual point around the club not showing much signs of innovation.



Nice analogy

And I do heed your points, they are valid but we have been playing too tall since pretty much Bolton's second season. This will be his third season of playing too tall and he will potentially have two wooden spoons to show for it. At what point do we assess this game plan and realise it's not going to work? I am not stating one way or another - it's just the consensus among the glass half full brigade is that it will happen, not sure how or when, but it will happen... even though we have 2.5 seasons of developing it for no net result (so far).

If you leave the eggs in the bowl for long enough, they will be rotten and thus no cake.

You really think our current results are because we are too tall?

Bookmark this, when things start to turn, we will still be playing a similar lineup

It will give you some time to conjure a response

 

[Gethelred]

Nice analogy

And I do heed your points, they are valid but we have been playing too tall since pretty much Bolton's second season. This will be his third season of playing too tall and he will potentially have two wooden spoons to show for it. At what point do we assess this game plan and realise it's not going to work? I am not stating one way or another - it's just the consensus among the glass half full brigade is that it will happen, not sure how or when, but it will happen... even though we have 2.5 seasons of developing it for no net result (so far).

If you leave the eggs in the bowl for long enough, they will be rotten and thus no cake.

It's been pretty bloody clear that, outside of Bolton's first year, he's placed development ahead of results (you can argue as to the why, my thoughts are that he's done it because wins have been nearly beyond him for most of that time due to injuries). He has ignored prospects to improve or at the very least lessen the level of defeat in particular games. People on here moan about him not placing Murphy and Ed into the middle (could do so with Daisy or Simpson, too) as though that isn't the immediate obvious thing to do. The kids are getting beaten around the ball, clearly.

What it comes down to for me is that Bolton is doing this, deliberately. It makes you ask why; why would you coldly and blatantly throw the young players to the wolves? What does it accomplish? Has such a thing happened before anywhere else?

Brisbane and Fitzroy before their merger both had young lists that were pulverised before the individual elements came good. GWS got absolutely belted for years before they grew into the behemoth that smashed us around last week. I'm not old enough to reach much further back than that for other examples, but it should be pretty clear what I'm getting at; we're aiming to do what they've done, go where they've gone. We want to infuse our players with the same sense of them vs us, with the same professionalism, and with the same blue collar attitude, the clenched fist in a velvet glove. That we are talented is undeniable; that we need to work harder is also undeniable. The only difference between them and us is that we do not seek to transition so dramatically as the previous examples have away from their pre-existing coaching structures, because if we've got the right man and the right plan, what does firing the coach accomplish?

What we really, really need to see is just less injuries. Continuity to the first 22, and to the players in it. Then, from there, we have a basis for criticism and for development.

 

[Dadda Dave]

Because I'd like to enjoy a premiership at some point in the prime of my lift, and I'm perhaps as not as prepared to accept another 20 years of being terrible as you or Soapy V might be

Oh cookie..onother 20 years lol..

 

[Dadda Dave]

You incessantly bagging the coach is getting boring.

That's on the coach..

 

[Red Bull]

No actually, he's statistically our third best midfielder for the entire season.

Just goes to show how badly our midfield has been performing really.

Meh
Just goes to show what a load of horse s**t statistics can be ...

 

[Zuribagger]

Didn’t Crippa admit at the end of the 2017 season that he played out the second half of the season with broken ribs (heavily strapped and on pain killers).....getting bashed every game as our inside mid? ******* LEGEND!

Give me more of that in our team please!Sounds like Frumpy is made of that same stuff and should head down to Ikon!

That reminds me, one of our past legends did exactly that - just walked into Princes Park and tried out - but can’t remember who it was. Anyone know?

 

[thylacine60]

you taking the piss? paul 'molly' meldrum - no legend but could seriously play - 150 plus games - played state

 

[Zuribagger]

Paul Molly Meldrum! Mate you’ve got a memory on you. Well done (if correct).

 

[thylacine60]

 

[thylacine60]

I'm on the couch.

 

[Dadda Dave]

I'm on the couch.

Cootch or clutch??

 

[Zuribagger]

Na, not taking the piss - I got a shiver when I found out that about Crippa. I was gobsmacked in a good way. Not suggesting Murph should have played on - no way - but Crippa is just a machine.

Like Frumpy, I’ve also been critical of Murph’s contact shy appearance this year (see unpopular thread) but having said that, he’s one of our favorite sons, so hope he recovers quickly, gets back to his best and that there is some pressure for his spot from others in the meantime.

 

[AceAndy]

60 odd years Doggies supporters waited. We are 24 years. This rebuild believe it or not is exactly what we had to do and it will pay off. If you can"t see it or wait I can't help you.

I am a 'i want it all and i want it now' kinda guy. Waiting sucks.

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

I am a 'i want it all and i want it now' kinda guy. Waiting sucks.

Canberra suits you Ace..

 

[AceAndy]

Canberra suits you Ace..

I have always found that