Roast The Chronicles of Alan Richardson - Part II

BrutThough

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tbh i feel the club and its overall management is getting worse as each year ticks on. just the improvement this year hasn't made it as obvious. it's turning into a boys club. jobs for your mates. that will only create an environment of very little accountability, the same old thinking and little innovation.

i'll give George credit he had concerns over the current president taking over. he might be pretty justified in that. he was part of the last board and may have been right behind previous decisions. he doesn't appear to have any real cut and thrust either, similar to summers. although summers atleast came in and read the riot act to watters and pelchen.
The entire AFL industry is a boys club.
Maybe at least now we will finally be at industry standards.
 

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Present Not Past

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While I do think this is possible, I am not saying it is going to happen. But imagine how good it would be...

We win two or more games before round 12 then after:
. Steven, Geary and Carslile return to the team
. Hannerberry debuts
. King finds form in the vfl and debuts while being able to at least compete at the highest level
. Webster finds form
. Acres becomes GOAT

We go on to make finals even win one. Roberton gets his health sorted out. We actually recruit a gun midfielder or two. Get another pre season into Marshall, Steele, Billings, Gresh, Acres, Sinclair, Parker, Clark and Coffield.

The future looks pretty good.
I'm not convinced Steven will play again this year.
The club will then have to make a decision at season's end regarding his future at the club.
 

VDS66

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I'm not sure what capacity Mikka is involved at the Saints but he has an ear to the ground at the club. It's sounding pretty bleak for Richo even if he makes finals let alone if he fails. I think it sounds like he hasn't got too many credits in the bank and the winds of change are coming through with the new appointments. I think the system is being credited to our new coaching staff and rather than keep Richo, I'd expect them to oust him unless he makes finals and then he gives himself a bit of a suit of armour. Not too many are brave enough to oust a coach who's made finals for the first time in years.
Mikka gets his Intel from me...
 

Diehard Saint

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I understand your point, but what does it do to the players? Will morale drop if the coach is sacked? Will they see it as the club starting over?
It'll probably be less of a blow if Ratten ends up as coach, but change for changes sake only seems to work well for fans.
The club is doing ok right now. We're missing what, 5 or 6 of our better players? You can only play with the team you've got, but if the experience is sitting on the sidelines, its tough to cover with guys who've played less than 30 games.

I don't know if Richo is who we need moving forward, there just isn't enough information available for me to make the call. I think when push comes to shove, Lethlean won't hesitate to pull the trigger if it needs to be done. He's sitting in the coaches box, he's there during the week. He is seeing it all, and he has no allegiances to anyone at the club.
Bulldogs sacked a coach and lost their captain... and won a flag.
( Just saying)
 

mightymalaka

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No finals= No Richo next year...As it should be...You can only gild the lily for so long!

The most patient the club has been in it's history, only for the coach to have one of the worst records over time in the comps history!
Just because we used to be a sacking club way back, should not deter from the fact that enough is enough after 7 years of rubbish!
Patience is fine if you see progress! We have been a very poorly skilled side with the same issues for years! Mediocrity begets mediocrity!
Just like a cancer, allowed to fester for too long it will eventually seep through the whole club! We already have a playing list that's far too
comfortable and well paid for being below average! Sadly a broom is needed and thus yet another rebuild will have to begin!
It's distressing enough for us long time sufferers let alone allowing for yet more sentimentality for the good guy coach!

No other club in the league would put up with failure in this manner! We would open ourselves up for even more ridicule if we continue to
Make excuses for this bloke again for another year! It's inevitable and he must know it, yet still remains a lucky man as he has 14 rounds
To turn it around and make finals in a year where he has absolutely no excuse...Injuries included! Over to you Richo, make the most of it mate
As your incredible run of luck is coming to an end! From here on only results should matter for any coach in his 7th year without one finals appearance!

Their is also such a thing as a coach being only to take a team so far. If he cannot get anymore out of his list then it's clear the message whatever it is
Has not had it's desired affect...Players do get stale under the same regime for too long, especially when their is a history of NO progress!
It will be time for someone else to get a go at lifting the standards of this group! As Diehard has pointed out sometimes a new fresh vision
Can work wonders! Meandering along year after year with an almost amateurish brand of game style and development would be a new low even by
StKilda standards!
 
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Grav

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Hopefully we can develop Clark to become an elite mid. The signs aren’t great though. Yup he’s young & developing but he’s come into the system with a number of shortcomings that are holding him back. It would be nice to recruit a mid that automatically impacts at AFL level. Many other clubs seem to be able to do it. It’s frustrating that we are unable to.
Probably the wrong thread but seeing that Clarks name came up, here is
a little article which may or may not give supporters hope, with Clark & Coffield.

http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/no-player-immune-from-the-blues-brown/
 

gringo2011

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tbh the results haven't been what they should have been for 3 seasons now. any coach worth their salt will be able to take just about any list to finals in his 3rd season. without a doubt by the 4th. so by 2016 we should have known. anyone with their finger on the pulse of how successful clubs operate would have called it then. 2017 it was obvious. 2018 was like a spectral fire. no one could ignore it. 2019 is much improved. but i think the results last year were so low, a natural improvement from bouncing back from the bottom, would make it look better. fixture is better too. hard on richo to turn it all around in 1 season. he's paying for complacency and the sub par football dept he had a big hand in implementing.

i nearly spat out my coffee when i heard mcclure talk about carlton and his new coach jezza. did you catch that one? lost 4 games in two years for i think under 19 points? was sacked....

meanwhile richo is literally the least successful coach to coach over 100 games, yet you will still find people either defending him or the management that see's him take out that honor. that tells me we could have literally anyone coaching this club and some people wouldn't have an issue with it. they'll always be happy and defend it. i wish there was an extra column to the richo stat, the person who appointed them and then extended their contract!

Our list was **** and he was really up against it with the side they gave him. I think the myth that Lyon had run the list into the ground gave him some excuses. The good players we had were all from around the 2000 draft and after that we fell off a cliff. We should have appointed a draft expert at some point but put a guy who was an assistant coach under Lyon in as an inexperienced recruiter. We turned over a lot of players when AR arrived and he refused to play guys like Tom Lee, Dunnell, Siposs etc who were looking okay under Watters. He pretty much started from scratch and at the same time retired a generation of older stars.

Unfortunately the list doesn't look outstandingly better than when he arrived. His legacy is probably the way we play hard contested footy and we aren't Melbourne style bruise free footy players. We really work hard with a blue collar list. Billings is probably our only top shelf player with Stuv out, realistically Billings is more Isaac Smith than Paddy Dangerfield in quality. We have a few promising players and B graders but we are no dream team.

I see us like GC, work hard, have heaps of heart but lack skills, poise, leadership, high end talent and a vision for where we're going. We always seem to be in hope of something magically clicking. We pick high risk players and hope rather than having a plan IMO.
 

StCicatriz

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I'm not too sure why you go on about timeframes for finals and flags. Rebuilds aren't linear.
the old rebuilds aint linear argument. yet literally every premiership coach has made finals within his 3rd year (from memory) and they're still doing it. are we meant to ignore that? are we also meant to ignore the extremely poor win loss ratio? what's more outlandish, that he's just not up to it? or that rebuilds are not linear despite there being a share demographic between all premiership coaches. what's more outlandish that a club that hasn't played finals in nearly a decade isn't well run or that a club that still hasn't played finals in a decade is well run, but for some strange reason, thing's just haven't gone right for them every single year for the last 9!

i am frustrated with the spin. like the results are there. people can see it. they're not idiots. it's a club that's spent 9 years out of finals who prematurely extended the contract of a coach who had yet demonstrated he could take the club to finals. we didn't put enough protection into the contract to ensure the club wouldn't be stuck paying him when they should have removed him.

if the club actually delivers on the expectation it sets, people would shut up and there would be no need for the sales job.

we need to get back to letting the actions do the talking.

Did you see the list when he took over? We had Tom Lee as our forward target and Josh Bruce playing centre half back. We completely bottomed out.
and who's fault is that, that the list was so poor! did that come from no where? and if the list was so poor why was trout still list manager until last year? 4 years into Finnis's tenure? near on half a decade! before him it was ameet with no AFL list management or recruitment experience! sound familiar? because that's what we've just appointed now.

it's like us appointing robert eddy as the next senior coach because he has some experience within private industry.

how's our football dept been going for the last 5 seasons under finnis? a cycle of appointing people with no experience in the role, realising they're no good, then moving them on and then replacing them with the exact same thing. pelchen -> cox -> to now lethlean after 6 months experience at AFL HQ. yes i'd say it's improved, but that's hardly an accomplishment given the last footy GM didn't even come from the sport!

we need to start asking our selves are these people good enough to make us an elite side. will they forge us into a hawthorn or WCE. or do they look amazing because they're new and the last person in the role got found out to be pretty poor!

Richardson's results improved year on year until 2018 when we completely shat the bed.
yeah nah, 2017 trended backwards as well.

Club backed him in and improved the people around him and it's worked, unless you think we should've beaten any of GWS, Adelaide or West Coast over the last three weeks. If so I'd then say to you at the start of the year did you think we'd beat Hawthorn, Essendon and Melbourne. Most said no but we have. 2019 has been a great improvement and if we will criticise Richo for what happened in 2018 then we must praise him for the work he has done this year with an injury ravaged list and a makeshift back six that is being held up well by guys with less than 20 games experience.
so we've already marked it down that it worked. that's great. is that the noise being made inside the club?

It wasn't the point I was making when I said it's a whole range of issues. I'm talking about our performance on field. When we bomb the ball inside 50 or show no composure moving the ball forward of centre that's not only on Richo it's on the entire coaching group and I would say more of it has to do with Ratten as he was brought into the club for this purpose. I'm not too sure what you see off-field that is so evidently bad that change needs to occur. Lethers is a fine operator and commercially we are better than we have probably ever been. Of course things could be better but every club would say that.
commercially we are better off because the league identified the clubs would have gone broke if they didn't assist them. that's why there's been a better distribution of funds and an improved stadium deal after they purchased it early. give finnis the keys back in 2000 and let's see how well that one goes! i think we hide behind a fair bit right now and make excuses for the rest.

How do you come to those kinds of conclusions? Because Lethlean brought in Hannebery and Gallagher? What have either of them done wrong to give you the idea that it's getting worse and there's little accountability or innovation? I don't understand that. Slater is a prime example of innovation.
yeah i'm massively concerned with appointing a list manager with literally no experience within the industry. people are nevous about doing that for a senior coach. yet we accept it with a list boss? i'd be ok with a player manager or recruiter or someone who's worked within a football dept taking that role, but someone coming in cold. yeah it stinks!

slate has been great, but he's in a relatively minor role, but correct, it's been a smart move. i like the idea of trying to bring in more premiership experience, people from a successful culture. i do not like bringing in people with literally no experience. especially those who are mates!

I only had concerns pre appointment because like you said he was part of the current regime, but nothing he has done so far has led me to believe I was right. So far Bassat has proven me wrong. Again I'm not sure how you can say he has no real cut & thrust. Where's the proof of that? He approved to gut basically the entire football department as soon as he was appointed.
he gutted the entire football dept? who did he move on? from memory we only made a handful of changes, on the back of what is a failed rebuild.
 

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StCicatriz

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Our list was **** and he was really up against it with the side they gave him. I think the myth that Lyon had run the list into the ground gave him some excuses. The good players we had were all from around the 2000 draft and after that we fell off a cliff. We should have appointed a draft expert at some point but put a guy who was an assistant coach under Lyon in as an inexperienced recruiter. We turned over a lot of players when AR arrived and he refused to play guys like Tom Lee, Dunnell, Siposs etc who were looking okay under Watters. He pretty much started from scratch and at the same time retired a generation of older stars.

Unfortunately the list doesn't look outstandingly better than when he arrived. His legacy is probably the way we play hard contested footy and we aren't Melbourne style bruise free footy players. We really work hard with a blue collar list. Billings is probably our only top shelf player with Stuv out, realistically Billings is more Isaac Smith than Paddy Dangerfield in quality. We have a few promising players and B graders but we are no dream team.

I see us like GC, work hard, have heaps of heart but lack skills, poise, leadership, high end talent and a vision for where we're going. We always seem to be in hope of something magically clicking. We pick high risk players and hope rather than having a plan IMO.
yeap and who oversaw the list management in that time. our list managers were ameet -> trout -> Gallagher under Finnis. Trout the most experienced by a fair margin. the other two came in with no experience.

do you think the lack of experience has something to do with having no real plan and the outcomes we get?
 

George

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the old rebuilds aint linear argument. yet literally every premiership coach has made finals within his 3rd year (from memory) and they're still doing it. are we meant to ignore that? are we also meant to ignore the extremely poor win loss ratio? what's more outlandish, that he's just not up to it? or that rebuilds are not linear despite there being a share demographic between all premiership coaches. what's more outlandish that a club that hasn't played finals in nearly a decade isn't well run or that a club that still hasn't played finals in a decade is well run, but for some strange reason, thing's just haven't gone right for them every single year for the last 9!

i am frustrated with the spin. like the results are there. people can see it. they're not idiots. it's a club that's spent 9 years out of finals who prematurely extended the contract of a coach who had yet demonstrated he could take the club to finals. we didn't put enough protection into the contract to ensure the club wouldn't be stuck paying him when they should have removed him.

if the club actually delivers on the expectation it sets, people would shut up and there would be no need for the sales job.

we need to get back to letting the actions do the talking.



and who's fault is that, that the list was so poor! did that come from no where? and if the list was so poor why was trout still list manager until last year? 4 years into Finnis's tenure? near on half a decade! before him it was ameet with no AFL list management or recruitment experience! sound familiar? because that's what we've just appointed now.

it's like us appointing robert eddy as the next senior coach because he has some experience within private industry.

how's our football dept been going for the last 5 seasons under finnis? a cycle of appointing people with no experience in the role, realising they're no good, then moving them on and then replacing them with the exact same thing. pelchen -> cox -> to now lethlean after 6 months experience at AFL HQ. yes i'd say it's improved, but that's hardly an accomplishment given the last footy GM didn't even come from the sport!

we need to start asking our selves are these people good enough to make us an elite side. will they forge us into a hawthorn or WCE. or do they look amazing because they're new and the last person in the role got found out to be pretty poor!



yeah nah, 2017 trended backwards as well.



so we've already marked it down that it worked. that's great. is that the noise being made inside the club?



commercially we are better off because the league identified the clubs would have gone broke if they didn't assist them. that's why there's been a better distribution of funds and an improved stadium deal after they purchased it early. give finnis the keys back in 2000 and let's see how well that one goes! i think we hide behind a fair bit right now and make excuses for the rest.



yeah i'm massively concerned with appointing a list manager with literally no experience within the industry. people are nevous about doing that for a senior coach. yet we accept it with a list boss? i'd be ok with a player manager or recruiter or someone who's worked within a football dept taking that role, but someone coming in cold. yeah it stinks!

slate has been great, but he's in a relatively minor role, but correct, it's been a smart move. i like the idea of trying to bring in more premiership experience, people from a successful culture. i do not like bringing in people with literally no experience. especially those who are mates!



he gutted the entire football dept? who did he move on? from memory we only made a handful of changes, on the back of what is a failed rebuild.
Fair enough.

I think you are overly negative towards the club (this has gotten worse over the last few months).

You make really broad assumptions and grand statements on the people in charge of the club - prime example here where you have issue with the list manager for no reason except industry experience - not anything he has actually done since being in the role that you can criticise. If you could please explain them that'd be great.

You think it's a boys club because Lethlean appointed a friend of his who has financial experience to manage player contracts and the salary cap, and a player from another club who brings leadership experience to a inexperienced list. What about Graeme Allan? Dermott Brereton? Or are they not included because they don't fit your narrative?

You think the people defending the club make excuses for what's gone wrong. Well you make excuses for what's gone right. I rarely see you defend the club or give them kudos when they deserve it.

Calling out Ameet for lack of experience is an absolute joke, he is one of the best people in the entire AFL. And you are wrong about Pelchen - you say he had no industry experience - he came from Hawthorn didn't he. We signed a premiership winning list manager and now you single him out as a bad appointment. I thought you wanted people with that kind of experience?

I am frustrated with your spin. So overly negative and most of it unsubstantiated. Most on here are frustrated with the coaching and not winning games of football, and that is fair enough - I have those same frustrations. But you are frustrated with literally everything the club has done and is doing. Blowing things way out of proportion like usual and then telling me that my responses are all spin. That I'm a mouthpiece for the football club and for some reason feel the need to come on a football forum and defend them because it is my duty.

No.

We have a lot of work to do, and we have strong people in charge who are hell-bent on getting us back up the ladder. As much as you like to believe the sky is falling down around us, it isn't. 4-4 and obvious improvement yet you still have the same frustrations. Would you prefer us gut the entire football club and start from scratch? Tell all future coaching candidates that they have three years to make finals otherwise they are sacked regardless of performance because rebuilds are linear and nothing will change that? I'm sure many coaches would love to have that kind of backing from their employer. Become a ruthless football club with the highest turnover in the league and build a reputation for sacking people all the time. We will get quality people in if we do that.
 

triggering bro

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Our list was **** and he was really up against it with the side they gave him. I think the myth that Lyon had run the list into the ground gave him some excuses. The good players we had were all from around the 2000 draft and after that we fell off a cliff. We should have appointed a draft expert at some point but put a guy who was an assistant coach under Lyon in as an inexperienced recruiter. We turned over a lot of players when AR arrived and he refused to play guys like Tom Lee, Dunnell, Siposs etc who were looking okay under Watters. He pretty much started from scratch and at the same time retired a generation of older stars.

Unfortunately the list doesn't look outstandingly better than when he arrived. His legacy is probably the way we play hard contested footy and we aren't Melbourne style bruise free footy players. We really work hard with a blue collar list. Billings is probably our only top shelf player with Stuv out, realistically Billings is more Isaac Smith than Paddy Dangerfield in quality. We have a few promising players and B graders but we are no dream team.

I see us like GC, work hard, have heaps of heart but lack skills, poise, leadership, high end talent and a vision for where we're going. We always seem to be in hope of something magically clicking. We pick high risk players and hope rather than having a plan IMO.
Agree with all of that. Recruitment & development the obvious issues which SL identified in his review. No stars, lack of leadership coming through & no real strategy in building the list until last year when the club targeted specific types to fill list deficiencies.

We really need to nail the development of Coffield & Clark because they both offer a point of difference. Coffield incredibly quick, composed & a good size. Clark great hands in tight, duel sided & skilful. Due to past mistakes it’s difficult to back in the club to get the best out of them. Can only hope.
 

George

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Anyway doesn't matter. Respect your views StCicatriz just disagree with nearly all of them lol. We have a long way to go and a lot of work to do to mend the heartache of losing Grand Finals and not capitalising on our 2004-2011 era of dominance.

A complete turnaround doesn't happen overnight, we are making steps in the right direction and that is all I'm focused on. Continue getting high quality people in and things slowly change.
 

Corpus

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Interesting discussion.

I am willing to give this new regime a few more years, even with Richardson at the helm. I think we are making the right decisions consistently and our results on-field will reflect that in the near future.

We came so close a decade ago, thought we needed to completely rebuild the club and did so, but along the way we realised that rebuilding everything at once is difficult. The list is one thing, and a difficult thing to fix at that, but processes and personnel and culture is another thing entirely and although it's taken quite a few years, we're finally on the right path heading in the right direction.

As George says above, if we keep bringing in high quality people, we will taste success.
 

gringo2011

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Anyway doesn't matter. Respect your views StCicatriz just disagree with nearly all of them lol. We have a long way to go and a lot of work to do to mend the heartache of losing Grand Finals and not capitalising on our 2004-2011 era of dominance.

A complete turnaround doesn't happen overnight, we are making steps in the right direction and that is all I'm focused on. Continue getting high quality people in and things slowly change.

I think it helps that you have points of contact inside the club so you can see what works and what doesn't. To people like me and St C, we are having to trust that this time things are different. It's like a cheating girlfriend telling you next time she'll be loyal to you. There are some serious trust issues developed over a long period. I feel better this time but I'm very reluctant to jump on to a new messiah. It feels safer expecting the worst and hoping for the best. I'm personally happy so far but would do anything for a pro recruiter.
 

gringo2011

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Interesting discussion.

I am willing to give this new regime a few more years, even with Richardson at the helm. I think we are making the right decisions consistently and our results on-field will reflect that in the near future.

We came so close a decade ago, thought we needed to completely rebuild the club and did so, but along the way we realised that rebuilding everything at once is difficult. The list is one thing, and a difficult thing to fix at that, but processes and personnel and culture is another thing entirely and although it's taken quite a few years, we're finally on the right path heading in the right direction.

As George says above, if we keep bringing in high quality people, we will taste success.

I don't know, you can bring in all the right people and it still be a balls up. Carlton have gone out and grabbed anyone they thought would improve them and have done nothing. The frustration comes from a 10 year rebuild and not seeing a great deal of rapid improvement. It looks like we might get out of last years fall to the bottom but potentially we are back to the position we were at in 2016 again with no further progress. The little bit of a taste of success is just like dropping blood in a shark tank to me. It's made me more toey.

I feel frustrated with the pace of it all and the list still looks a long way off challenging teams at the top end of the ladder in any meaningful way. Some of the lower teams are talent pooling better than we did at the same stage too so it's like pressure from above and below.
 

Corpus

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I don't know, you can bring in all the right people and it still be a balls up. Carlton have gone out and grabbed anyone they thought would improve them and have done nothing. The frustration comes from a 10 year rebuild and not seeing a great deal of rapid improvement. It looks like we might get out of last years fall to the bottom but potentially we are back to the position we were at in 2016 again with no further progress. The little bit of a taste of success is just like dropping blood in a shark tank to me. It's made me more toey.

I feel frustrated with the pace of it all and the list still looks a long way off challenging teams at the top end of the ladder in any meaningful way. Some of the lower teams are talent pooling better than we did at the same stage too so it's like pressure from above and below.
But all you can do is bring in the right people, follow the right processes and hope things break your way.

Also, the list might look a long way off challenging teams at the top end but that could change very quickly. I think our young blokes are made of the right stuff and will keep improving, but we need to add good, experienced players (of the Hannebery mould) to our list and surround them with good coaches. It looks to me like we're doing just that but, as we know, getting those elite players in is tricky. We will land one though, and it might tempt another...
 

StCicatriz

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Fair enough.

I think you are overly negative towards the club (this has gotten worse over the last few months).
actually i think i'm pretty light on compared to last year.

You make really broad assumptions and grand statements on the people in charge of the club - prime example here where you have issue with the list manager for no reason except industry experience - not anything he has actually done since being in the role that you can criticise. If you could please explain them that'd be great.
here's a couple, in one of his first interviews he jumped on radio claiming we wouldn't be prepared to give up our first round for shiel, only for lethers to jump on radio the next day claiming that wasn't the case. i can't re-call it but there were another couple of cases where the exact same thing happened.

the hanners deal. i'm ok with the trade. i'm not ok with the reported contract length and $$$.

the melbourne pick swap trade i'm happy with. kent trade i am ok with. future swaps last year i am ok. but these were minor trades.

not happy with the reported billings offer, but that hasn't been finalised yet.

You think it's a boys club because Lethlean appointed a friend of his who has financial experience to manage player contracts and the salary cap, and a player from another club who brings leadership experience to a inexperienced list. What about Graeme Allan? Dermott Brereton? Or are they not included because they don't fit your narrative?
happy with both. although i'm still not sure what Gubby does exactly...

You think the people defending the club make excuses for what's gone wrong. Well you make excuses for what's gone right. I rarely see you defend the club or give them kudos when they deserve it.
yeah that's flat out ********.

Calling out Ameet for lack of experience is an absolute joke, he is one of the best people in the entire AFL. And you are wrong about Pelchen - you say he had no industry experience - he came from Hawthorn didn't he. We signed a premiership winning list manager and now you single him out as a bad appointment. I thought you wanted people with that kind of experience?
pelchen was not the list manager. he was the footy boss. he had literally no experience in running a football dept. they're two completely different things. he was moved on as soon as finnis arrived pretty much and replaced with cox, who also had no experience.

ameet was a great operator who according to the club was spread too thin. he was the list boss. given you pointed out how bad the list was, does he not take some of the blame for that? he was directly responsible for it! until he became COO for his last season with us (maybe two?), then trout got promoted to that position. ameet by all account was a good manager, but in terms of list management, do you think he handed over a good list to trout? what about to Gallagher two seasons later?

I am frustrated with your spin. So overly negative and most of it unsubstantiated. Most on here are frustrated with the coaching and not winning games of football, and that is fair enough - I have those same frustrations. But you are frustrated with literally everything the club has done and is doing. Blowing things way out of proportion like usual and then telling me that my responses are all spin. That I'm a mouthpiece for the football club and for some reason feel the need to come on a football forum and defend them because it is my duty.
lol when did i say you were a mouth piece for the football club? last time you brought this up on here, i was concerned you were worried what people on here thought, so i tried to re-assure you we dont think that. atleast i didn't.

We have a lot of work to do, and we have strong people in charge who are hell-bent on getting us back up the ladder. As much as you like to believe the sky is falling down around us, it isn't. 4-4 and obvious improvement yet you still have the same frustrations. Would you prefer us gut the entire football club and start from scratch? Tell all future coaching candidates that they have three years to make finals otherwise they are sacked regardless of performance because rebuilds are linear and nothing will change that? I'm sure many coaches would love to have that kind of backing from their employer. Become a ruthless football club with the highest turnover in the league and build a reputation for sacking people all the time. We will get quality people in if we do that.
lol cmon. say we sack Richo, new coach comes in. how long do you think is fair to see him play finals? do we really give them more than 3 years to make finals? i mean that's what you are suggesting here? as long as there is incremental improvement the coach should be safe. so what if he does a richo:
- last in 2020
- 4th last in 2021
- 9th in 2022.

are you really going to back him after that? maybe we should repeat what we did with richo. hand him another 4 years without any protection until the 3rd year through a series of extensions.

3 years is ample time, considering an elite AFL player may only have 10 years of footy in him. that's a 1/3 of his career. if we go with the richo model we've burnt 6 years on one coach who more than likely will be shown to be poor. that's close to 2/3 of your playing age. taking too long to call it on the coach or your list manager just burns you. you effectively approach rebuild time, with the young stars that coach inherited. instead of making the call earlier. reality is coaches are often only signed on 2 or 3 year deals, so i don't see anything wrong with setting an expectation there.

i mean you said Basset had gutted the football dept, right? but he only really ticked off on lethers moving on 2 line coaches, 2/3 development coaches and a list boss?

so if your definition of gutting something is that, then yeah maybe we should gut the entire football club and start again! turning over 6 positions is not a great deal for an organisation that has found it self outside the 8 for 9 years!
 

StCicatriz

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I think it helps that you have points of contact inside the club so you can see what works and what doesn't. To people like me and St C, we are having to trust that this time things are different. It's like a cheating girlfriend telling you next time she'll be loyal to you. There are some serious trust issues developed over a long period. I feel better this time but I'm very reluctant to jump on to a new messiah. It feels safer expecting the worst and hoping for the best. I'm personally happy so far but would do anything for a pro recruiter.
nailed it mate

George might feel better about the whole thing because he literally can speak to them every day and he knows them personally. maybe there's a middle ground. maybe it's not as bad as what i've said, but maybe it's not as good as what the club portrays either. i don't know any of them, so i'm not affected by it. a lot easier to talk about sacking faceless people than if you know them.

anyways i think the distrust comes from a place where i've been through this before on here. last administration is great, everyone's happy, playing finals, really in the hunt. but we have some minor concerns. i've defended their faults to the nth degree. from ross to watters. butters, fraser, netters and westaway. then it falls apart. those people leave. suddenly everyone identifies how **** they really were. new people come in, they're amazing, so much better than the last group. i was one of those again. summers plan was brilliant. pelchen coming in from hawthorn looked amazing. the strategy gave us hope. we battled to 3 grand finals, almost pinched one. we knew what we were doing, we are always the underdog, so everyone doubting us will see. then things start to get rough, but it's hard for them because of how bad the last group were. everything falls apart again. then you realise maybe they ain't that great. you see if falling apart in front of your very eyes. like a slow moving train. but people are defending it. they're adamant everything is ok. there's always a reason and an excuse. a lot comes down to how bad things were that they inherited. they're doing a lot right though. it falls apart completely. but things are on the up. we are well managed... well until that person leaves when it doesn't get better... rinse and repeat.
 
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StCicatriz

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But all you can do is bring in the right people, follow the right processes and hope things break your way.

Also, the list might look a long way off challenging teams at the top end but that could change very quickly. I think our young blokes are made of the right stuff and will keep improving, but we need to add good, experienced players (of the Hannebery mould) to our list and surround them with good coaches. It looks to me like we're doing just that but, as we know, getting those elite players in is tricky. We will land one though, and it might tempt another...
i think in terms of the list and onfield it can turn quickly. which contributes to the frustration.

i think we have this really strong blue collar list. it's like cement. solid stuff but not flashy. its a great base to start from. but it's not something you show off or sell.

i think with the right management, it can go from solid to contending and i think it can move quickly to that. once you are contending the class can be attracted from the outside, which will take the list from blue collar to something more special. our problem is we never hit contending, so we can't bring it in.

we also haven't drafted and developed our own elite inside mid since Lenny Hayes, 20 years ago. that has to change.
 
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gringo2011

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But all you can do is bring in the right people, follow the right processes and hope things break your way.

Also, the list might look a long way off challenging teams at the top end but that could change very quickly. I think our young blokes are made of the right stuff and will keep improving, but we need to add good, experienced players (of the Hannebery mould) to our list and surround them with good coaches. It looks to me like we're doing just that but, as we know, getting those elite players in is tricky. We will land one though, and it might tempt another...

Clubs at the tail end generally draft their best talent. Geelong has been very lucky with their geography and local talent pool which attracted Danger home and Sydney have mortgaged their future on Buddy and lost players like Mitchell because of it.

The best players currently outside those guys are Ablett who apart from a well paid hiatus was a FS, Fyfe- drafted, Dusty- drafted, Oliver- drafted, Josh Kennedy WC- traded for Judd, Kelly drafted, Sloan drafted etc. A handful of the best player have moved clubs but generally all the best talent has ben taken in the draft. The only player I can think that moved to a worse club than they left is Lauchie Neale.
 

StCicatriz

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Clubs at the tail end generally draft their best talent. Geelong has been very lucky with their geography and local talent pool which attracted Danger home and Sydney have mortgaged their future on Buddy and lost players like Mitchell because of it.

The best players currently outside those guys are Ablett who apart from a well paid hiatus was a FS, Fyfe- drafted, Dusty- drafted, Oliver- drafted, Josh Kennedy WC- traded for Judd, Kelly drafted, Sloan drafted etc. A handful of the best player have moved clubs but generally all the best talent has ben taken in the draft. The only player I can think that moved to a worse club than they left is Lauchie Neale.
great point, you want to win a flag then you really need to draft and develop your own midfield talent, starts with the engine. the inside stuff. given our last was lenny, it shows why we haven't got back to the promised land.
 

triggering bro

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great point, you want to win a flag then you really need to draft and develop your own midfield talent, starts with the engine. the inside stuff. given our last was lenny, it shows why we haven't got back to the promised land.
Yup & not much is changing. Despite many saying Clark & Coffield are fine developing at Sandy the majority of the best young talent play in the 1’s from the get-go. Gresham the only one that’s played consistently in the 1’s. Even Billings has been dropped a number of times.
 
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