Analysis The Coach - Simon Goodwin [The Journey]

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Topkent

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Yeah I've always thought that coaching in the AFL is the least influential of any great sport
I think you need a great coach for a young list to instill training habits, teach defence and attack balance etc.
Once you're a good team they coach themselves and a great coach can't make an average list any better.

Especially noticeable in the AFL, In America and England with their football codes coaches get better with age and are still capable when they are 60.
In Australia apparently only blokes 5 years out of the game can still 'coach'
We are so immature with coaching it's crazy.
 

Ando727

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Yeah I've always thought that coaching in the AFL is the least influential of any great sport
I think you need a great coach for a young list to instill training habits, teach defence and attack balance etc.
Once you're a good team they coach themselves and a great coach can't make an average list any better.

Especially noticeable in the AFL, In America and England with their football codes coaches get better with age and are still capable when they are 60.
In Australia apparently only blokes 5 years out of the game can still 'coach'
We are so immature with coaching it's crazy.
It's hilarious really. We act as though coaching football is like making CPUs for phones: up to the minute technology. If you fall behind the tech, you're finished... And like all these recent retirees from the game are a rich source of intellectual property that you couldn't possibly get by watching the game from outside. Like there's so much thought going on inside the walls of football clubs, you need first-class minds with genius IQs to even comprehend the sophistication of the plans.

In reality, most of them are pretty pedestrian minds, no smarter than us here. Sure, they have club experience we don't, but not necessarily any better insight into what plagues a given club or how to change it. The only coaches you can bank on making a difference are the experienced ones with a track record of success. The rest is just a random throw at the dart board with a blindfold on.
 

Topkent

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It's hilarious really. We act as though coaching football is like making CPUs for phones: up to the minute technology. If you fall behind the tech, you're finished... And like all these recent retirees from the game are a rich source of intellectual property that you couldn't possibly get by watching the game from outside. Like there's so much thought going on inside the walls of football clubs, you need first-class minds with genius IQs to even comprehend the sophistication of the plans.

In reality, most of them are pretty pedestrian minds, no smarter than us here. Sure, they have club experience we don't, but not necessarily any better insight into what plagues a given club or how to change it. The only coaches you can bank on making a difference are the experienced ones with a track record of success. The rest is just a random throw at the dart board with a blindfold on.
Yeah mate it's ridiculous, the head coach doesn't even do tactics anyway thats trained by the line coaches and the game plan analyst. It's ******* mental that blokes like Shaw and Teague can just walk into a head coaching job with no experience
 

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Bluelegs

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Yeah I've always thought that coaching in the AFL is the least influential of any great sport
I think you need a great coach for a young list to instill training habits, teach defence and attack balance etc.
Once you're a good team they coach themselves and a great coach can't make an average list any better.

Especially noticeable in the AFL, In America and England with their football codes coaches get better with age and are still capable when they are 60.
In Australia apparently only blokes 5 years out of the game can still 'coach'
We are so immature with coaching it's crazy.
The one I always find odd is whenerver an older coach is in charge of a team in a down period you always hear "The games gone past him." Often repeated by people older than the coach they're talking about. Does the modern game befuddle every git over the age of 55 or what?
 

Topkent

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The one I always find odd is whenerver an older coach is in charge of a team in a down period you always hear "The games gone past him." Often repeated by people older than the coach they're talking about. Does the modern game befuddle every git over the age of 55 or what?
It's a ******* joke, us fu** holes sitting on the couch can see how the game has changed an understand but a guy who's sitting in the coaches box hearing about the changes is immediately too old if their team isn't winning a flag.
 

Demon bhoy

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You're saying a coke addict who had one of the greatest lists since Brisbane's 3 peat who was too busy smashing a sandwich to pay attention to the game and Dimma are coaching geniuses? I'd just about throw up. Also Clarko managed to navigate through the most compromised period in the history of the draft and be on top at the right time. Dimma suddenly became an all time coach after how many years at the caper when he was due to be sacked? I think not. The only thing that ties all of those guys together is their ability to manage the egos on their list. There's a reason every single one of Clarko's assistants is in hot demand every year. Someone behind these blokes is the real brains of the operation, the head coach just takes all the glory.
Who said they were geniuses, that’s just you putting words in my mouth, I said their abilities as coaches was in a different universe to the halfwit coaching out team, 8 premierships and counting would prove that.

As for this idea that couches just manage egos and the real brains of the operation are behind the scenes, does that apply to Hardwick when he was an assistant at hawthorn? And did he lose his ability to coach when he became senior coach at Richmond and just got lucky with Leppitsch, and when did he come good after failing at Brisbane and how did Brendan Bolton get so bad after running the show for Clarkson at Hawthorn, we could go on and on, I’m not sure you thought that one all the way through.
 

Billy Demon

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Agree about the ageist crap. So many clubs trip over themselves to bring in young assistants as Head Coach and it is high risk. Then when the young HC gets into trouble they say let’s get an older guy as a mentor - give me a break. We have brought in quite a few ‘rookies’ as HC over the years and we haven’t had the lists to make it work. Why does MFC shy away from experienced head coaches? - we haven’t taken many compared to the number of times we give a guy his first Head Coach role. Please do not go for another ‘rookie’ Head Coach after Goodwin. A guy over 40 or 50 is not cooked. I like the NFL example. Look at the NY Giants - f&&cking around with guys who have never been Head Coach at NFL level rather than going with an older proven Head Coach.
 
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Topkent

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Look at Chris Fagan, has decades of experience and he's walked into the lion's and been a masterstroke, same with Rattan.
For our next coach I'd be looking at the blokes who have already coached and gone back to the assistant ranks. Don Pyke, Voss, Leppitsch etc. Not even necessarily as head coach but bring them over.
 

Tulip

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. Also Clarko managed to navigate through the most compromised period in the history of the draft and be on top at the right time.
'Navigate through'? He was kissed on the **** with having a prime list and his early picks from 04-07 peaking at that point. Credit to him for trades like Gunston, Burgoyne, Gibson - but that threepeat owed a lot to timing. Same as Brisbane's owed a lot to concessions and the merger.
 

Toump Ass

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AFL is slowly changing it's ageist tune, and recognising that coaches deserve a second chance- see Ratten, Worsfold, Fagan.

I don't think the senior coach deserves as much credit as they get. Ratten has come in to the Saints but he's brought with him the strategist who (I think) was previously head of game development at the AFL, and prior to that Hawthorn's strategist during their three-peat.

Likewise with GOATwin. Clearly being let down by our assistants, strategists, the board, sponsors and supporters too.
 

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Crusty Demon

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Look at Chris Fagan, has decades of experience and he's walked into the lion's and been a masterstroke, same with Rattan.
For our next coach I'd be looking at the blokes who have already coached and gone back to the assistant ranks. Don Pyke, Voss, Leppitsch etc. Not even necessarily as head coach but bring them over.
Richardson
 

Pedantic

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Yeah I've always thought that coaching in the AFL is the least influential of any great sport
I think you need a great coach for a young list to instill training habits, teach defence and attack balance etc.
Once you're a good team they coach themselves and a great coach can't make an average list any better.

Especially noticeable in the AFL, In America and England with their football codes coaches get better with age and are still capable when they are 60.
In Australia apparently only blokes 5 years out of the game can still 'coach'
We are so immature with coaching it's crazy.
Cricket coaching especially at international level is much less influential. But agree with the gist of your post.
 

Topkent

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So this is much of what I've thought, everyone would agree that Fagan's a great coach and he's coaching his team brilliantly.

Dayne Zorko said in an interview the other day that Fagan does 0 game day coaching, 0 tactics and 0 training. He just coaches the boys and keeps them happy.

AFL coaching is ******* nuts.
 

stEdy

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Yep, it's bizarre.

As long as the players "play" for the head coach AKA don't hate him, you just have to hope that the fitness guy and some of the line coaches get something right over an off season and that it comes together. Get your trading and drafting right too.

Look at Ken Hinkley, Port fans have wanted him sacked for maybe 4 years? Now they just pull something out of their ass, finish first and win their first final. If you're around the mark just keep shuffling assistant coaches around until something clicks lol.
 

LarryDavidNeitz

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Part of the reason head coaching in the AFL looks like they're doing nothing is because the media has us all convinced that inventing complicated strategies and getting in a player for pick 31 instead of pick 25 is the key to success.

Success in footy boils down to having a capable list of players who are developed well to play to their potential, and then getting the squad collectively 'in the zone'. 2.5 years ago nearly every media pundit was telling us how Brisbane's list was rooted and would need 6 years to rebuild. Now, they're a top 3 side because players play their roles to their potential and they've got the right buzz and energy in the group.

Every year there are multiple teams (like us atm) who are perfectly capable of being top 2-4 but instead go through the motions and put in inconsistent effort. Generating consistent effort is pretty much the entire job of an AFL head coach.
 

Bicco

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Sorry to jump in but I agree. When Lyon was coaching us it felt that he had a system and the players had to play to that. He didn’t make a system to suit the players (if that makes sense) at his disposal. He loved a contested brand of football which suits big mature bodies. When we had a list turn over with young kids playing, we were smashed. The plan just didn’t suit the players at his disposal. It was very much ‘if plan A fails, do plan A harder’. It’s why the Clarkson style coaches always beat him, it was plan A or nothing. It works a lot of the time, gets finals footy and a lot of wins if everything is right, but can fall down in important moments.
 

00Stinger

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So this is much of what I've thought, everyone would agree that Fagan's a great coach and he's coaching his team brilliantly.

Dayne Zorko said in an interview the other day that Fagan does 0 game day coaching, 0 tactics and 0 training. He just coaches the boys and keeps them happy.

AFL coaching is ******* nuts.
The senior coaches role is morphing into that of a European soccer manager.

You have all of the assistant coaches/line coaches, fitness staff ext do most of the work but they are managed by the manager. The manager still implements his strategy/tactics ext but delegates the jobs to the staff below him. Apparently Clarko is very similar
 

Topkent

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The senior coaches role is morphing into that of a European soccer manager.

You have all of the assistant coaches/line coaches, fitness staff ext do most of the work but they are managed by the manager. The manager still implements his strategy/tactics ext but delegates the jobs to the staff below him. Apparently Clarko is very similar
Yep, basically Alex Ferguson
 

Ando727

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The senior coaches role is morphing into that of a European soccer manager.

You have all of the assistant coaches/line coaches, fitness staff ext do most of the work but they are managed by the manager. The manager still implements his strategy/tactics ext but delegates the jobs to the staff below him. Apparently Clarko is very similar
I used to be confused as to why English soccer clubs call their head coach their "manager", but now I realise it's because that's basically what they do - make sure the right people are in the right places and that the environment is productive. Then you let people do their jobs and front the media when necessary.
 

00Stinger

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I used to be confused as to why English soccer clubs call their head coach their "manager", but now I realise it's because that's basically what they do - make sure the right people are in the right places and that the environment is productive. Then you let people do their jobs and front the media when necessary.
the managers still adopt the teams gamestyle and tactics its just they have their coaches instruct that on the training ground rather than the manager having to juggle everything

Its a bit like what Geelong did with Bomber Thompson in 2007 and onwards*

* although that may have also been because of his coke addiction!
 
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Toump Ass

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Dayne Zorko said in an interview the other day that Fagan does 0 game day coaching, 0 tactics and 0 training.
I thought this was common knowledge. His job title at Hawthorn was "general manager of football" from 2013 until he moved to the Lions, pretty sure it was said at the time he'd be doing more-or-less the same role at Brisbane.
 

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