The cock up that is the east coast energy market

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Kwality

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all you're doing is pushing the problem down the road, oh and you're doing it in a country that likes to ship most of its gas overseas
Yet its not a problem in WA thanks to a pro active State Government ... a Labor Government to boot. You know exactly why the east coast energy market is a cock up & claiming the OP is pushing the problem down the road is a disingenuous 'look over there' attempt to move responsibility of those complicit in this mess.
 

Gralin

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Yet its not a problem in WA thanks to a pro active State Government ... a Labor Government to boot. You know exactly why the east coast energy market is a cock up & claiming the OP is pushing the problem down the road is a disingenuous 'look over there' attempt to move responsibility of those complicit in this mess.
nice ego you have there thinking I was talking about you
 

SaintsSeptember

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Yet its not a problem in WA thanks to a pro active State Government ... a Labor Government to boot. You know exactly why the east coast energy market is a cock up & claiming the OP is pushing the problem down the road is a disingenuous 'look over there' attempt to move responsibility of those complicit in this mess.

I assume that there are a lot of remote works sites ( including mines ) in W.A. that are using Solar with Diesel or Gas for electricity generation.
There is far less of this in Victoria.

Interestingly one of the most efficient gas power stations in NSW was built by Visy.
 

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Kwality

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I assume that there are a lot of remote works sites ( including mines ) in W.A. that are using Solar with Diesel or Gas for electricity generation.
There is far less of this in Victoria.

Interestingly one of the most efficient gas power stations in NSW was built by Visy.

Sandfire has been an early mover:

DeGrussa Solar Farm

'Sandfire was a first mover in Australia for renewable energy use in an off-grid mining application.

The innovative $40M DeGrussa Solar Project was successfully commissioned at Sandfire’s DeGrussa Copper-Gold Mine in June 2016.'


Needing a real world solution in a 24/7 mining operation:
'The solar facility has been integrated with the diesel-fired power station, continuing to provide base-load power to the DeGrussa mine with sufficient minimum load to ensure it can respond quickly to meet the power requirements of the process plant and underground mine.

The DeGrussa Solar Project supplies nearly 20 per cent of the annual power requirements of the DeGrussa Copper-Gold Mine and cut its emissions by around 12,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide a year.'


The DeGrussa Operations located 900km north-east of Perth in Western Australia include the high-grade DeGrussa Copper-Gold Mine (DeGrussa) and Monty Copper-Gold Mine (Monty).​

Australia--e1653025848556.png

WA.png
 

SaintsSeptember

TheBrownDog
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Sandfire has been an early mover:

DeGrussa Solar Farm

'Sandfire was a first mover in Australia for renewable energy use in an off-grid mining application.

The innovative $40M DeGrussa Solar Project was successfully commissioned at Sandfire’s DeGrussa Copper-Gold Mine in June 2016.'


Needing a real world solution in a 24/7 mining operation:
'The solar facility has been integrated with the diesel-fired power station, continuing to provide base-load power to the DeGrussa mine with sufficient minimum load to ensure it can respond quickly to meet the power requirements of the process plant and underground mine.

The DeGrussa Solar Project supplies nearly 20 per cent of the annual power requirements of the DeGrussa Copper-Gold Mine and cut its emissions by around 12,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide a year.'


The DeGrussa Operations located 900km north-east of Perth in Western Australia include the high-grade DeGrussa Copper-Gold Mine (DeGrussa) and Monty Copper-Gold Mine (Monty).​

Australia--e1653025848556.png

WA.png
Absolutely the way to do it if you are off grid.
The alternative is probably all diesel.
 

Kwality

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:'(

Snowy Hydro boss Paul Broad says fallout with Chris Bowen contributed to resignation​


"The reality is Liddell Power Station is closing, you need more gas-fired power stations, you need lots more of them," Mr Broad said.

The gas-fired plant sits in the Hunter Valley electorate of Paterson.

Paterson MP Meryl Swanson said she had spoken to Mr Bowen, seeking assurances the plant would still be built.

"The minister told me from his own mouth yesterday that it will go ahead, the plant will be happening and there will be an element of hydrogen," she said.

The ABC has contacted Chris Bowen's office for comment.
Posted 4h ago
 

SaintsSeptember

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:'(

Snowy Hydro boss Paul Broad says fallout with Chris Bowen contributed to resignation​


"The reality is Liddell Power Station is closing, you need more gas-fired power stations, you need lots more of them," Mr Broad said.

The gas-fired plant sits in the Hunter Valley electorate of Paterson.

Paterson MP Meryl Swanson said she had spoken to Mr Bowen, seeking assurances the plant would still be built.

"The minister told me from his own mouth yesterday that it will go ahead, the plant will be happening and there will be an element of hydrogen," she said.

The ABC has contacted Chris Bowen's office for comment.
Posted 4h ago

An element of Hydrogen lol.

So natural gas that has Hydrogen in it... or Hydrogen ready.
 

SaintsSeptember

TheBrownDog
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I almost feel for the politicians.
They are closing a 2000Mw Coal plant, and they are struggling to win over a population to get a 600Mw gas station.

My only comment is why is it open cycle?

From a political point of view its not so much, the Liddel power station employs around 600, the gas plant will employ around 10.
 

Kwality

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"The factors driving high prices are going to be in play for the foreseeable future, but just because prices stay high doesn't mean bills have to," she said.

"The best way to deliver lower bills is to provide practical assistance so that Australians can use energy smarter and more efficiently without impacting their quality of life."

How 'bout we stop kidding ourselves about Australias energy system.
 

SaintsSeptember

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"The factors driving high prices are going to be in play for the foreseeable future, but just because prices stay high doesn't mean bills have to," she said.

"The best way to deliver lower bills is to provide practical assistance so that Australians can use energy smarter and more efficiently without impacting their quality of life."

How 'bout we stop kidding ourselves about Australias energy system.

We've already changed our lights to LED.

I could see a lot of new solutions that fit in with a weather influenced electricity supply.
A smart off peak system that could communicate to appliances?
For example, instead of your refrigerator defrosting randomly based on a timer, communicate with the grid and defrost during high renewable/ low price times.
But the same issues apply, those stuck renting trying to get a house won't be in a position to get the new technology. Their landlords won't give a crap about installing solar panels.

Those who save enough for a deposit, won't be in a position to install double glazing.
 

Kwality

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AEMO warns of power 'gaps' in Australia's biggest grid within three years as coal exodus gathers pace​

Its being reported as News by Aunty ...o_O

 

Gralin

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Kwality

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AEMO are talking about "green gas" we're *ed

View attachment 1495944

So what is your definition of gas, the same as Europe OR the Bandt version.
Be sure to note climate change is worldwide, not local.

Europe counts, not forgetting China, Russia, India ....

“Forecast reliability gaps have emerged across NEM regions due to considerable coal and gas plant closures, along with insufficient new generation capacity commitments needed to offset higher electricity use.”
 

Gralin

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So what is your definition of gas, the same as Europe OR the Bandt version.
Be sure to note climate change is worldwide, not local.

Europe counts, not forgetting China, Russia, India ....

“Forecast reliability gaps have emerged across NEM regions due to considerable coal and gas plant closures, along with insufficient new generation capacity commitments needed to offset higher electricity use.”
Europe or Bandt lol

you're ideology is showing again
 

Gralin

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Denial is your bedfellow.
you made this bullshit example

green gas is bullshit and you're asking me if I go with the Europe definition of gas or the Bandt like they are a) the choices and b) there are choices

like gas is gas, its a fossil fuel, it's not green, it will never be green "green gas" is like "clean coal" it's political posturing and you're basing your arguments on political posturing

and you say I'm in denial...
 

SaintsSeptember

TheBrownDog
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you made this bullshit example

green gas is bullshit and you're asking me if I go with the Europe definition of gas or the Bandt like they are a) the choices and b) there are choices

like gas is gas, its a fossil fuel, it's not green, it will never be green "green gas" is like "clean coal" it's political posturing and you're basing your arguments on political posturing

and you say I'm in denial...

Actually CO2 is incredibly green, as its the main gas needed for plant growth.
But stupid color labelling aside.

Brown Coal Generation. = 1.3 ish KgCo2 /Kwh
Black Coal Generation = 1.1 ish KgCo2 /Kwh
Gas - Gas-Turbine Generation = 0.5-0.8 kgCO2/Kwh.
Gas - Boiler Steam-Turbine Generation (Newport ) around 0.6 I think.
World Standard - combined cycle gas. 0.35kg/Kwh.

So its obvious that some of these are "greener" than others if you don't rate everything it absolute terms like good and evil.

Gas is ideal because it can come on line fast, before those big batteries ( which also aren't super green ) go flat.
 

Kwality

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you made this bullshit example

green gas is bullshit and you're asking me if I go with the Europe definition of gas or the Bandt like they are a) the choices and b) there are choices

like gas is gas, its a fossil fuel, it's not green, it will never be green "green gas" is like "clean coal" it's political posturing and you're basing your arguments on political posturing

and you say I'm in denial...
Yep, denial.
Gas is green when you want, not green when you like.

& is wheeled out by the fringe dwellers of climate change as & when useful.
 

Gralin

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Actually CO2 is incredibly green, as its the main gas needed for plant growth.
But stupid color labelling aside.

Brown Coal Generation. = 1.3 ish KgCo2 /Kwh
Black Coal Generation = 1.1 ish KgCo2 /Kwh
Gas - Gas-Turbine Generation = 0.5-0.8 kgCO2/Kwh.
Gas - Boiler Steam-Turbine Generation (Newport ) around 0.6 I think.
World Standard - combined cycle gas. 0.35kg/Kwh.

So its obvious that some of these are "greener" than others if you don't rate everything it absolute terms like good and evil.

Gas is ideal because it can come on line fast, before those big batteries ( which also aren't super green ) go flat.
Yes its a greenhouse gas so it warms the planet.

We both know that's not the green they are suggesting with the label.


Yep, denial.
Gas is green when you want, not green when you like.

& is wheeled out by the fringe dwellers of climate change as & when useful.
Hahaha
 

SaintsSeptember

TheBrownDog
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Yep, denial.
Gas is green when you want, not green when you like.

& is wheeled out by the fringe dwellers of climate change as & when useful.

But you ignored the rest of my post.

If we used world standard gas, we could replace coal in victoria and reduce the emissions from electricity by more than 70%.
If we used that gas in conjunction with more renewables, we could decrease it by more than 90%.

What is the target they are humming and harring about?
 

SaintsSeptember

TheBrownDog
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So Loy Yang is closing down earlier. If you read between all the fluff, its because AGL Shareholders want it.
They stated that the future is wind and battery storage. That is their future for potential earnings. Yes...Wind can replace Loy Yang. ....When the wind is blowing.

No batteries with current technology won't go close to storing enough.

I'm sure AGL will remain profitable in the future. Blackouts and electricity shortages are not their concern.

"AGL's announcement comes on the same day as two reports which highlighted energy affordability as a significant challenge in Australia's transition away from fossil fuels to renewable power. "

Greenpeace supposedly support science, then come out with this sort of crap.

"Greenpeace Australia Pacific CEO David Ritter welcomed the move, saying Australia was moving "at lightning speed towards renewables".

"This is a change which will make a real difference to the climate," he said.

"When Greenpeace started piling pressure on AGL in early 2021, the company planned to run the filthy and decrepit Loy Yang A out to 2048. The commitment to close it by 2035 has a real, tangible benefit to Australia and the world." "

Filthy? CO2 cannot be considered "filthy" by any scientific measure. It is a gas, just as Oxygen, and Hydrogen are gasses.
Yes the power station has parts of it in contact with "coal" so there may be coal build up on it. Kind of irrelevent.

It is simply NOT decrepit.

Greenpeace are non-scientific idiots, chasing an ideal world which doesn't exist within the realms of science.
They are relying on nameless smart people to invent stuff to bring their dreams to life.


Anyway with Loy Yang closing , surely some sort of plan to provide the state with electricity is required.
I despair that the people in charge won't notice it until the day it closes, then they'll realize they need a decade to provide a decent replacement , or to build something cheap and nasty.
 

Kwality

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So Loy Yang is closing down earlier. If you read between all the fluff, its because AGL Shareholders want it.
They stated that the future is wind and battery storage. That is their future for potential earnings. Yes...Wind can replace Loy Yang. ....When the wind is blowing.

No batteries with current technology won't go close to storing enough.

I'm sure AGL will remain profitable in the future. Blackouts and electricity shortages are not their concern.

"AGL's announcement comes on the same day as two reports which highlighted energy affordability as a significant challenge in Australia's transition away from fossil fuels to renewable power. "

Greenpeace supposedly support science, then come out with this sort of crap.

"Greenpeace Australia Pacific CEO David Ritter welcomed the move, saying Australia was moving "at lightning speed towards renewables".

"This is a change which will make a real difference to the climate," he said.

"When Greenpeace started piling pressure on AGL in early 2021, the company planned to run the filthy and decrepit Loy Yang A out to 2048. The commitment to close it by 2035 has a real, tangible benefit to Australia and the world." "

Filthy? CO2 cannot be considered "filthy" by any scientific measure. It is a gas, just as Oxygen, and Hydrogen are gasses.
Yes the power station has parts of it in contact with "coal" so there may be coal build up on it. Kind of irrelevent.

It is simply NOT decrepit.

Greenpeace are non-scientific idiots, chasing an ideal world which doesn't exist within the realms of science.
They are relying on nameless smart people to invent stuff to bring their dreams to life.


Anyway with Loy Yang closing , surely some sort of plan to provide the state with electricity is required.
I despair that the people in charge won't notice it until the day it closes, then they'll realize they need a decade to provide a decent replacement , or to build something cheap and nasty.

When did AGL buy, or be given responsibility for power generation ?
I understand electricity remains a State responsibility & Minister D'Ambrosio claims to be on top of things.
I'd prefer a map of Victoria's plans (including time frame & $s) be attached to the Ministers assurances.

We were sold renewables as cheaper because the sun & wind are free. For some reason the details (costs) around the grid were ignored & we will all be paying for for a bloody long time to come.
Was Greenpeace aware of the problems beyond the cost of generation or simply ignorant?

Victoria is in the Ministers hands, not AGL.
 

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