Opinion The Collingwood Versus Port Adelaide Jumper Debate continues...

[Festerz]

They should be able to wear the prison bars in a home Showdown game once a year, incorparte some teal in some small way around the collar or arms? One thing they should definitely do is rid themselves of that horrible grey away strip they wear, why isn't that a prison bars strip with teal? Port has been a lost team for 25 years, they have not accepted the fact that they are part of the national competition and all ties with the SANFL need to be severed. They have a great home strip that Kochie is not proud of, it's bizarre how Port Adelaide is reluctant to build their AFL heritage and continue with this nonsense. The AFL should allow them to play once a year in their strip from another competition, once a year won't hurt, it's ridiculous and as long as they don't wear it in any other game, who cares?

 

[Festerz]

Contrary to popular opinion, the “Prison bar” jumper has undergone changes over the years
Fact: the prison bar jumper hasn’t been worn for 120 years as some have claimed. There have been different designs since 1902

Port Adelaide Pre AFL Jumpers

add your site description here

www.footyjumpers.com

All I'm seeing is black and white stripes since 1902 - the issue that has Collingwood in a blathering mess.

What are you seeing?

 

[Pappagallo]

That's nice but irrelevant. Any actual evidence that a change in uniform to be less distinctive results in an increase in the net value of both clubs' IP?

Ignoring the fact that you’ve shifted the goalposts here I can confidently say that the net value of Port’s AFL IP increases with the Prison Bars included in the mix. This is supported by the fact that we’ve sold squillions of them whenever they’ve been available to purchase. It is our most important historical and cultural icon by a country mile and it strongly resonates with the vast majority of our supporter base.

There would be zero impact to the value of Collingwood’s IP unless a really, really, really simple Collingwood supporter accidentally purchased a Port Adelaide Prison Bar guernsey by virtue of being really, really, really simple and possibly vision impaired as well. If this was to occur I’m sure a refund could be arranged upon discovery of the error.

 

[Pappagallo]

They have. If a casual observer flicking through channels and see a soccer match, they wouldn't be able to tell you who was playing. Only people who follow it more closely can pick the crests or the sponsors. But everyone can tell you which team is Ferrari in the F1.

The casual observer doesn’t give a toss about X team and subsequently doesn’t spend any money on X team or their affiliates. The financial impact of this extra second it takes for a non-interested party to determine who’s who on the telly is zero.

 

[Trent the flight Steward]

I think the biggest problem is that Eddie and Gil knew the heritage round was going to be axed, port didn't and now Eddie comes back to signing that document as binding that port can't wear it anymore.

Eddie and Gil are tight and this change won't happen on his watch and if one of gils honchos gets in, nothing will happen, just let port wear it for showdowns, sign an agreement for 30 years and be done with it

 

[yodellinhank]

The casual observer doesn’t give a toss about X team and subsequently doesn’t spend any money on X team or their affiliates. The financial impact of this extra second it takes for a non-interested party to determine who’s who on the telly is zero.

Their brands are diluted. Everyone knows who Ferrari are. Everyone knows what McDonalds is. Not everyone will pick a soccer team based on uniforms.

 

[parano1a]

There would be zero impact to the value of Collingwood’s IP unless a really, really, really simple Collingwood supporter accidentally purchased a Port Adelaide Prison Bar guernsey by virtue of being really, really, really simple and possibly vision impaired as well

This tells us you know nothing about marketing. Each AFL club has a brand focused around a unique colour scheme and key design element. Collingwood's brand equity is intristinically linked with the black and white stripes. Port need to accept that on a national level their brand is now focused around the black teal and white chevron.

 

[Trent the flight Steward]

This tells us you know nothing about marketing. Each AFL club has a brand focused around a unique colour scheme and key design element. Collingwood's brand equity is intristinically linked with the black and white stripes. Port need to accept that on a national level their brand is now focused around the black teal and white chevron.

Ports magpie jumper looks better than collingwoods that the problem

 

[Pappagallo]

This tells us you know nothing about marketing. Each AFL club has a brand focused around a unique colour scheme and key design element. Collingwood's brand equity is intristinically linked with the black and white stripes. Port need to accept that on a national level their brand is now focused around the black teal and white chevron.

Well galaxy brain marketing guru here might want to consider the concept of target markets and how there is almost zero overlap wrt Port and Collingwood. Google maps would be a good place to start.

 

[Pappagallo]

Their brands are diluted. Everyone knows who Ferrari are. Everyone knows what McDonalds is. Not everyone will pick a soccer team based on uniforms.

I know who McDonald’s is but I don’t eat Big Macs. I’m literally worth nothing to them.

Who cares if the casual observer who doesn’t open their wallet can’t immediately tell the difference between Man U and Liverpool? They certainly don’t.

 

[Monco Matt]

Do you really want to go down the path of the history of how and why the VFL was so desperate to create a national competition?

Why the VFL Commission was so keen to see Port Adelaide enter the expanded VFL in the first place?

The debate about Port Adelaide wearing its traditional prison bars jumper, that it has worn for 120 years in the SANFL is all about history. And why it matters. Because if the fabric of footy counts for anything then the history of the clubs, their suburbs and their people is surely worth taking account of?

Arguing that the history of one club founded in Port Adelaide 152 years ago is less worthy than one founded in Collingwood 130 years ago makes zero sense if we are serious about the AFL being a national competition.

An intelligent person would surely see that allowing Port Adelaide to wear their traditional and cherished prison bars jumper in games against their hated rival of Adelaide at Adelaide Oval poses no threat to Collingwood. In fact it elevates the history and traditions of our national game.

Finding an intelligent person at AFL House who understands the sheer logic of that seems to be the real issue here. But let's be honest. It ain't logic, commonsense or integrity of the competition that matters at AFL House is it?

The issue with two clubs using black and white stripes (stripes or prison bars, they are the same basic thing) is global identity, recognition and brand association. When someone sees an AFL club wearing B&W stripes they associate that with the Collingwood Football Club. Why can't Port Adelaide supporters understand this basic concept. You are trying to steal our identity, regardless if it is for one or two games a year it is irrelevant. If you love the B&W prison bars so much then leave the AFL competition and go back to following the SANFL, we can then bring in Tasmania, I'm sure they would love to wear the Teal and would just appreciate that they are participating in the AFL competition and have their own identity without trying to infringe upon another clubs.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

There needs to be respect and compromise from both sides.

Firstly, Collingwood wore the black and white stripes in the VFL and AFL first so that needs to be respected, it needs to be respected from their standing in both the State and National league and at NO point should Port be allowed to play either Collingwood or in Victoria whilst wearing the bars.
Having said that, the AFL and Collingwood need to recognise our history in our state and on the National stage.

So what's a good compromise that doesn't disrespect Collingwood or its place in history whilst allowing us to honour our heritage?

I suggest we be allowed to wear the bars in showdowns, Anzac round and the first and last home games of the home and away season, 5 times per year.
The AFL should then arrange the fixture so that we never play Victorian clubs or former VFL clubs in those 3 non showdown clashes.

So we get to wear the bars as our home ground season opener against say GWS, Anzac day against say West Coast and the last home game of the home and away against say GC or Freo.
This means we never wear it in any game that disrespects Collingwood's history within their homeland or against their fellow current or former VFL clubs.
We wear it in SA against our fellow SA rival to pay homage to our state history with Adelaide representing the other SANFL clubs and on the National stage within SA against other non VFL heritage clubs.

 

[p4p1]

A few things from a neutral observer.
1. Collingwoods traditional jumper is white with black stripes while Ports is black with white strips. The two jumpers are clearly distinguishabe.
2. By going to a black jumper with white stripes in the 2000s Collingwood jumper became far closer to Ports jumper than Ports ever got to theirs.
3. Teams should be able to wear whatever they want in their home games.
4. Brisbane wears red, blue and yellow, Gold Coasts official colours in most of their away games. As far as I am away red is not an official colour of Brisbane. Gold Coast wear blue and yellow in away games, the same colours as West Coast. Melbourne have worn red, white and blue away jumper previously, the same colours as the Western Bulldogs. These jumpers are all distinguishable from each other, just as Ports jumper is with Collingwood historic jumper.

I haven’t seen anything to indicate all of ports colours must be on their jumper. Going by their current home and away jumpers I would tend to think they can’t be. Couldn’t Port there for reasonably wear either teal or silver shorts and/or sock with silver and/or teal with the traditional prison bar jumper to ‘distinguish’ themselves from Collingwood?

 

[p4p1]

The issue with two clubs using black and white stripes (stripes or prison bars, they are the same basic thing) is global identity, recognition and brand association. When someone sees an AFL club wearing B&W stripes they associate that with the Collingwood Football Club. Why can't Port Adelaide supporters understand this basic concept. You are trying to steal our identity, regardless if it is for one or two games a year it is irrelevant. If you love the B&W prison bars so much then leave the AFL competition and go back to following the SANFL, we can then bring in Tasmania, I'm sure they would love to wear the Teal and would just appreciate that they are participating in the AFL competition and have their own identity without trying to infringe upon another clubs.

But it was fair for Australia’s most successful club to give up their identity to join a national competition that Collingwood through no fault or design of their own happened to be a part of? If anything by adpoting a black jumper with white stripes instead of the traditional white jumper with black stripes Collingwood has tried to steal Ports identity.

 

[datax990]

Sometimes a picture says it better than words ever could

 

[Suspense]

Nice attempt to flip the argument.

The evidence is that the two biggest brands in Premier League both wear red.
Clearly their brands have not been diluted.

My argument is that the AFL would be hesitant in making a change that would dilute the distinctiveness of their IP within their own competition by having two teams with black and white stripes as a home uniform.

That two popular brands in the Premier League both wear the same colour home strip is irrelevant as;

1.
The argument is based on the consequential effect (dilution of IP distinctiveness) of a change from the status quo where all clubs have distinctive home uniforms - not whether it is possible for there to be two popular brands with the same home uniform in the same competition. Of course it is possible because it is a fact.

2.
We are talking about fundamentally different markets. The Australian Rules football market is primarily geographically focused on one country, with one main competition (AFL) consisting of 18 clubs - each with their own distinct home uniform. The consumers within this small geographic market are conditioned to seeing each of the clubs within this competition as having distinct home uniforms - thereby forming an important part of the perceived value of the clubs' IP within that market.

The Soccer market is global with many professional competitions worldwide - and in which clubs from these different competitions can, and often do, play one another. The EPL itself has different levels with the English football league system having approximately 5,300 clubs. The idea that you could even attempt to have distinct home strips for all the Soccer clubs at a professional level is absurd. Consumers within this global-market are conditioned to seeing many clubs, across all these competitions, sharing the same/similar home strips to other clubs (minimal distinctiveness). As a result, home uniform distinctiveness has minimal perceived value within the Soccer market.

This is why it is commonplace to see clubs with the same home strip in Soccer - whereas the AFL, having control of the singular professional competition, would prefer to retain the value of its IP with all its clubs within their competition having distinct home uniforms.


Pretty straightforward.

 

[yodellinhank]

I know who McDonald’s is but I don’t eat Big Macs. I’m literally worth nothing to them.

Who cares if the casual observer who doesn’t open their wallet can’t immediately tell the difference between Man U and Liverpool? They certainly don’t.

That is arguing that brand dilution doesn't matter, not that it doesn't exist in the case of a football team's uniform. Which is an argument I'd also disagree with.

 

[yodellinhank]

But it was fair for Australia’s most successful club to give up their identity to join a national competition that Collingwood through no fault or design of their own happened to be a part of? If anything by adpoting a black jumper with white stripes instead of the traditional white jumper with black stripes Collingwood has tried to steal Ports identity.

That Collingwood happened to be a part of the VFL was very much by design of their own.

 

[p4p1]

That Collingwood happened to be a part of the VFL was very much by design of their own.

Yes but that the VFL ended up turning into a national competition was not something they or any team that formed the VFL envisioned. It just ended up working out that way.

 

[Suspense]

There would be zero impact to the value of Collingwood’s IP unless a really, really, really simple Collingwood supporter accidentally purchased a Port Adelaide Prison Bar guernsey by virtue of being really, really, really simple and possibly vision impaired as well. If this was to occur I’m sure a refund could be arranged upon discovery of the error.

This isn't about differentiating to avoid brand confusion - it's about maintaining brand distinction and the AFL looking to retain the intangible value that comes along with that.

 

[Mr39]

The issue with two clubs using black and white stripes (stripes or prison bars, they are the same basic thing) is global identity, recognition and brand association. When someone sees an AFL club wearing B&W stripes they associate that with the Collingwood Football Club. Why can't Port Adelaide supporters understand this basic concept. You are trying to steal our identity, regardless if it is for one or two games a year it is irrelevant. If you love the B&W prison bars so much then leave the AFL competition and go back to following the SANFL, we can then bring in Tasmania, I'm sure they would love to wear the Teal and would just appreciate that they are participating in the AFL competition and have their own identity without trying to infringe upon another clubs.

They are clearly not the same thing. They are as much the same thing as the Collingwood, north and saint’s guernseys being the same thing.

 

[bomberclifford]

Port need to accept that on a national level their brand is now focused around the black teal and white chevron.

It is. It's also linked to the history of how Port came to be in the AFL. The only club to be elevated to the national comp outside of Victoria.

That's why we want to wear our PB guernsey occasionally to celebrate this.

 

[pz5151]

No black and white stripes.
Uses two of our four colours and our monogram.


View attachment 1471995

Port should bring this in next year and then gradually lighten the grey each year until it's indistinguishable from but technically not white.

Problem solved

 

[Pappagallo]

My argument is that the AFL would be hesitant in making a change that would dilute the distinctiveness of their IP within their own competition by having two teams with black and white stripes as a home uniform.

That two popular brands in the Premier League both wear the same colour home strip is irrelevant as;

1.
The argument is based on the consequential effect (dilution of IP distinctiveness) of a change from the status quo where all clubs have distinctive home uniforms - not whether it is possible for there to be two popular brands with the same home uniform in the same competition. Of course it is possible because it is a fact.

2.
We are talking about fundamentally different markets. The Australian Rules football market is primarily geographically focused on one country, with one main competition (AFL) consisting of 18 clubs - each with their own distinct home uniform. The consumers within this small geographic market are conditioned to seeing each of the clubs within this competition as having distinct home uniforms - thereby forming an important part of the perceived value of the clubs' IP within that market.

The Soccer market is global with many professional competitions worldwide - and in which clubs from these different competitions can, and often do, play one another. The EPL itself has different levels with the English football league system having approximately 5,300 clubs. The idea that you could even attempt to have distinct home strips for all the Soccer clubs at a professional level is absurd. Consumers within this global-market are conditioned to seeing many clubs, across all these competitions, sharing the same/similar home strips to other clubs (minimal distinctiveness). As a result, home uniform distinctiveness has minimal perceived value within the Soccer market.

This is why it is commonplace to see clubs with the same home strip in Soccer - whereas the AFL, having control of the singular professional competition, would prefer to retain the value of its IP with all its clubs within their competition having distinct home uniforms.


Pretty straightforward.

A-League.

12 Clubs.

No promotion/relegation system.

Two of them wear sky blue.

All’s well, even the perceived value brand distinction random marketing terminology.

 

[AndyD]

Legally, the AFL owns Collingwood's identity, does it not? How do you propose Collingwood packs up it's toys and walks away? Where is this supposed contact that states that Collingwood have the right to leave the competition if a different team comes in wearing a Guernsey that doesn't have their blessing? That's nonsense.

Ross Oakley’s book details that the Commission had difficulty in selling the concept to the clubs and getting their agreement to transfer the ownership of that identity. It is not difficult to imagine a condition of the agreement was that they would retain veto rights over another club using any aspect of that identity. The current state of play seems to strongly indicate such a condition was attached (or a threat to challenge it would exist if that was to happen), otherwise Collingwood would have absolutely zero say in the matter and Port would’ve been wearing it from when they wanted to.

If I’m right, and I strongly suspect I am, Port shouldn’t expect anything to change while Jeff Browne is president of Collingwood, considering he was one of the main architect’s of that agreement while he was legal counsel for the VFL/AFL. I would imagine he may be even more of a hardliner on that issue compared to McGuire given his intimate knowledge of that agreement. While it most likely has been updated multiple times since then, the basics around clubs putting their identities under the AFL’s control has likely stayed the same.