Politics The coming war with China - John Pilger

[VineyIsLORD]

No it isn't. The Russians and Chinese killed millions in the 20th century, millions more than the US did. What was the Holodomor if not genocide?

It's not just non-Western nations. The world is better off that the US is the hegemonic power than when it was the British Empire.

Good to see that dimwit Chameleon75 weigh in with half baked ideas.

The Russians and Chinese killed their own people as they rapidly industrialised. Ues. This is true.

They did not aggressively attack other nations or fund proxy wars or nuke anyone pr test nukes on people. The Americans did all pf those things.

It isnt simply a matter of body count. Especially when the deaths through starvation attributed to Mao are mostly through poor policy rather than deliberate action.

Im not saying Stalin or Mao were good men, i am saying the American empire is objectively worse than either of them.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

I'd suggest the Uyghur, Tibetans and Ukrainians don't share your view that it was the Chinese perpetrating it against the Chinese.

Do you really want to get into a tit for tat as to who or how many groups have been oppressed by America compared to China?

Do you think that will make America look good?

 

[igon value]

The Russians and Chinese killed their own people as they rapidly industrialised. Ues. This is true.

They did not aggressively attack other nations or fund proxy wars or nuke anyone pr test nukes on people. The Americans did all pf those things.

Are you sure re: the Russians? What would the Baltic states have to say about that? Or Finland? Are you forgetting your history?

It isnt simply a matter of body count.

That's all that matters.

i am saying the American empire is objectively worse than either of them.

Except it isn't.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

Are you sure re: the Russians? What would the Baltic states have to say about that? Or Finland? Are you forgetting your history?


That's all that matters.

Except it isn't.

Well give me the figures for total deaths by America including domestic policy seeing as you are wanting to apply that to Stalin and Mao.

How many Americans have died from lack of healthcare in the last 116 years? Add that to the total of American deaths abroad in war, the entire sum total pf deaths in WW2 can be put on America for funding the Nazi party in the first place etc etc.

They lose even on body count.

 

[igon value]

Do you really want to get into a tit for tat as to who or how many groups have been oppressed by America compared to China?

Do you think that will make America look good?

That the small sphere of influence China had led to both proportionally and nominally more deaths than contained within the American sphere of influence. You want to count 'groups' yet not numbers of individuals? Nonsense.

The fact the only people agreeing with you are little graham and Procrastinator35 should give you pause.

 

[igon value]

Well give me the figures for total deaths by America including domestic policy seeing as you are wanting to apply that to Stalin and Mao.

How many Americans have died from lack of healthcare in the last 116 years? Add that to the total of American deaths abroad in war, the entire sum total pf deaths in WW2 can be put on America for funding the Nazi party in the first place etc etc.

They lose even on body count.

You're a hopeless cause.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

That the small sphere of influence China had led to both proportionally and nominally more deaths than contained within the American sphere of influence. You want to count 'groups' yet not numbers of individuals? Nonsense.

The fact the only people agreeing with you are little graham and Procrastinator35 should give you pause.

Groups or individuals America looks worse.

I maintain the best situation is for an isolationist America, China, Russia, Swaziland etc

 

[VineyIsLORD]

You're a hopeless cause.

Im hopeless because i pointed out you are wrong even on your own nominated subjective criteria?

Feels good to be hopeless the I must say

Sorry your feels got hurt Rambo

 

[little graham]

Are you sure re: the Russians? What would the Baltic states have to say about that? Or Finland? Are you forgetting your history?
.

So the viikings genocide doesn't matter?

 

[Procrastinator35]

I'd suggest the Uyghur, Tibetans and Ukrainians don't share your view that it was the Chinese perpetrating it against the Chinese.

As opposed to Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Philippines, Korea, Japan, CHINA (OPIUM Wars), Libya, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Honduras, Venezuela, Puerto-Rica, El Salvador, Panama, Argentina etc, etc....I'm sure I've missed plenty.

Also Ukraine's civil war was started by Mossad & M16....Might need some more research on that one amigo.

 

[igon value]

Im hopeless because i pointed out you are wrong even on your own nominated subjective criteria?

Feels good to be hopeless the I must say

Sorry your feels got hurt Rambo

You entered wing nut land, I'm bracketing you with Procrastinator35 and little graham - too childish and naive for a response.

 

[igon value]

Also Ukraine's civil war was started by Mossad & M16....Might need some more research on that one amigo.

Jesus Christ you are thick.

 

[little graham]

As opposed to Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Philippines, Korea, Japan, CHINA (OPIUM Wars), Libya, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Honduras, Venezuela, Puerto-Rica, El Salvador, Panama, Argentina etc, etc....I'm sure I've missed plenty.

Australia.....

 

[Procrastinator35]

You entered wing nut land, I'm bracketing you with Procrastinator35 and little graham - too childish and naive for a response.

PISS WEAK Response....Argument lost.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Jesus Christ you are thick.

Not as thick as some snow-pea.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

You entered wing nut land, I'm bracketing you with Procrastinator35 and little graham - too childish and naive for a response.

Then why respond?

Sore loser much?

 

[little graham]

You entered wing nut land, I'm bracketing you with Procrastinator35 and little graham - too childish and naive for a response.

You getting nailed and turning to personal abuse. Brave. But why waste the energy. I learn the most about america from her dissidents. The good and the bad. the good they teach me is the fact they are teaching me the bad. but i wouldn't want to be an Indian reservation over an oil well lol..

 

[little graham]

Pretty sick society that would do this to cat.

 

[BlightysCats]

I would have been interested in this but if the documentary is anywhere near as biased as the OP's description then I'm out.

The US is far from a moral pretty boy; but out of the two of them, China is the one with boarder disputes with just about every neighboring country, has annexed territories and resources it has no right to claim in the south China sea, and has conducted it's foreign policy in a manner that has left it few friends anywhere near it.

And that's to say nothing of any internal issues.

They are an aggressive expansionist power, with a culture of nationalism that puts America's to shame.

Anyone who looks at these two powers and concludes that America is the greater evil or threat to world peace are morons.

I'm with you on the U.S over China but to call China an aggressive expansionist power is a bit strange, if you actually look at their history they're pretty much the opposite and if anything were too introspective and unwilling to open up to the wider world for large parts of the last 200 years. Sure they're now enforcing their unique meld of tyrannical capitalistic communism on to Hong Kong and playing a little game of Sim City in the South China Sea but the U.S actually invaded a country in the last 20 years what has China done comparable to that expansion wise?

 

[VineyIsLORD]

I'm with you on the U.S over China but to call China an aggressive expansionist power is a bit strange, if you actually look at their history they're pretty much the opposite and if anything were too introspective and unwilling to open up to the wider world for large parts of the last 200 years. Sure they're now enforcing their unique meld of tyrannical capitalistic communism on to Hong Kong and playing a little game of Sim City in the South China Sea but the U.S actually invaded a country in the last 20 years what has China done comparable to that expansion wise?

Exactly.

China takes its own territory very seriously but hasnt traditionally been expansionist.

The areas China are concerned with are Tibet, Taiwan, Hong Kong. Because these areas are historically considered part pf China (before they were taken off China by Britain in the case of Tibet and HK).

They have historically invaded North Vietnam semi regularly also. And always lost eventually because hey Its Vietnam and they shouldnt be invaded by anyone who plans on winning.

Really doesnt compare to the US who has invaded nations on every continent for the flimsiest reasons and often based on outright lies.

 

[MrPortAdelaide]

China simply get themselves into position where they can bully, and then through tactical means they will twist your arm till you give in, they are here to take and what they give is nothing compared to what they take

 

[MrPortAdelaide]

Exactly.

China takes its own territory very seriously but hasnt traditionally been expansionist.

The areas China are concerned with are Tibet, Taiwan, Hong Kong. Because these areas are historically considered part pf China (before they were taken off China by Britain in the case of Tibet and HK).

They have historically invaded North Vietnam semi regularly also. And always lost eventually because hey Its Vietnam and they shouldnt be invaded by anyone who plans on winning.

Really doesnt compare to the US who has invaded nations on every continent for the flimsiest reasons and often based on outright lies.

i understand the anger against the US but when it comes to World Powers throughout history the US are by far the nicest ones going around. The point is if the US are not the world power then someone else is going to be and that picture looks far worse

 

[VineyIsLORD]

i understand the anger against the US but when it comes to World Powers throughout history the US are by far the nicest ones going around. The point is if the US are not the world power then someone else is going to be and that picture looks far worse

Im not sure we can say the US actually are the nicest power when you look at the fact they've been involved in wars on every single continent, dropped nukes, tested nukes on the poorest, economically crippled anyone who disagrees with letting their natural resources be plundered etc.

I mean you would really have to qualify the reasoning behind your opinion. I disagree with it because they are far more interventionist, in a violent way, than many other world powers have been in the past

 

[MrPortAdelaide]

Im not sure we can say the US actually are the nicest power when you look at the fact they've been involved in wars on every single continent, dropped nukes, tested nukes on the poorest, economically crippled anyone who disagrees with letting their natural resources be plundered etc.

I mean you would really have to qualify the reasoning behind your opinion. I disagree with it because they are far more interventionist, in a violent way, than many other world powers have been in the past

the US if it wanted to could have held the world to ransom after WWII, you could have made an argument as to why shouldnt they since they did liberate many countires, but they didnt and there are many countires in the world that are a testament to their generosity, Germany & Japan to name a few. You still have to ask yourself the question are you better off with the US being the world power or China, the answer is clear.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

the US if it wanted to could have held the world to ransom after WWII, you could have made an argument as to why shouldnt they since they did liberate many countires, but they didnt and there are many countires in the world that are a testament to their generosity, Germany & Japan to name a few. You still have to ask yourself the question are you better off with the US being the world power or China, the answer is clear.

You are very ignorant of history if you think the US hasnt used force to hold large parts of the world to ransom since WW2.

I cant think of many that they genuinely liberated but I can name a great many countries that they have oppressed violently.

The answer is clear: China would most likely be the less intrusive and less violent power.