Politics & Government The definition of scalping

[SJ]

Yesterday I was in a situation where I had three base-level reserved seat tickets to Geelong v Gold Coast (face value $29 each) which could no longer be used. I am a member, so had no need for them either. They were bought legitimately.

Obviously with no need for them, I would rather they were put to good use, so I had planned to get to the footy early and try to find someone to sell them too at a significant discount ($50 maybe) to the face value ($87 prior to booking fees). I had been under the impression that any sale of tickets at or below the face value is legal in this state, as I can't see any cost to society or any reason for its banning.

Because it wasn't really a high-demand game, the queues at the ticket windows were pretty short and I wanted to make sure it didn't look like I was up to anything shady. So I told a ground attendant about my situation; I was happy to get rid of them at a personal loss to myself, and how someone else might as well use them, however I didn't to do anything illegal.

At this point a security guard walked up, and I explained the same situation. He told me that any sale of the tickets would be scalping. I asked even if sold at face value? He said yes. I asked even if sold at a discount to face value? He said yes. I asked him about the definition of scalping, but he couldn't really tell me (he didn't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed). I asked what would happen if I sold them for $0.00 (free), and he just said "make sure you do it away from my sight".

Then I went and asked some nearby police the same question. Seemingly the most senior cop there reiterated what the security guard said, and told me any exchange of tickets for cash is scalping (however he had never charged anyone with this act).

Not wanting to end up charged, I moved away to another area. In the end I gave the tickets away for nothing.

I still don't believe there is anything wrong with selling tickets at or below face value. I understand in Victoria there are 'declared events' (such as AFL Grand Final and Cricket World Cup) where on-selling is banned, but this match would certainly not have been one of those.

Can anyone help me out here? Was I right or wrong?

 

[Rough_Edges]

They're talking s**t.

 

[PowerbaII]

I was under the impression that ticket scalping was only illegal for the grand final and it's perfectly legal to re-sell tickets for any price, higher or lower than what you originally purchased them for. This is why eBay is always inundated with tickets for highly sought after games that have sold out, except the grand final.

 

[Quivorir]

I was under the impression that ticket scalping was only illegal for the grand final and it's perfectly legal to re-sell tickets for any price, higher or lower than what you originally purchased them for. This is why eBay is always inundated with tickets for highly sought after games that have sold out, except the grand final.

Its more that the police the grand final ticket resales a lot more than a GWS vs St Kilda game.

The police and the security guards in this situation have no idea at all.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Tickets to events declared under the Major Sporting Events Act cannot be resold at any price, profit or loss. As far as I know, the only AFL event currently declared is the Grand Final. It's basically just a rort to ensure the only people who may legally scalp tickets are the AFL and those they approve (ie the clubs).

Any other event, there are no laws governing resale.

What they may have been referring to is the terms and conditions included on the tickets - usually the promoter (AFL) and the seller (Ticketek / Ticketmaster) have a condition of no resale - and if the ticket is resold they reserve the right to cancel it. It's not law, but a condition they place on the product. Whether their right to do so has ever been tested under consumer law, I don't know. But maybe doing it right outside the ticket windows isn't the best move.

 

[SJ]

Tickets to events declared under the Major Sporting Events Act cannot be resold at any price, profit or loss. As far as I know, the only AFL event currently declared is the Grand Final. It's basically just a rort to ensure the only people who may legally scalp tickets are the AFL and those they approve (ie the clubs).

Any other event, there are no laws governing resale.

What they may have been referring to is the terms and conditions included on the tickets - usually the promoter (AFL) and the seller (Ticketek / Ticketmaster) have a condition of no resale - and if the ticket is resold they reserve the right to cancel it. It's not law, but a condition they place on the product. Whether their right to do so has ever been tested under consumer law, I don't know. But maybe doing it right outside the ticket windows isn't the best move.

Thank you, this is a good post. Can you please direct me towards where you think this might be written?

Edit: A quick Google search found this:

It is a condition of entry to the Venue (including all areas under owner or hirer, the “Venue”) for matches forming part of the Australian Football League’s season that patrons agree:

...

4. not to re-sell or offer to re-sell any tickets to the matches played at the Venue at a premium or to use any of them for advertising, promotional or other commercial purposes (including competitions) without the prior written consent of the Australian Football League. Note: if the ticket is sold or used in contravention of this condition, the bearer of the ticket may be denied admission to the Venue;

http://www.afl.com.au/tickets/conditions-of-entry

Which makes me think there is still nothing wrong with selling at a discount.

 

[kickazz]

Yep it looks like what you were intending to do was okay.

I think the only thing you really did wrong was to think that a security guard would have any idea about the law other than what relates directly to their job.

I guess no one at the ground would encourage it - they would prefer people buy more tickets at the windows. Also there is that off chance you are selling dodgy/used tickets, no one wants that s**t going on.

Best bet is to get someone near the back of the line, offer to go up to the gate with them as well to ensure they are legit tickets.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Ticketek is only at a premium seems:

http://premier.ticketek.com.au/Content/buyers/termsofsale.aspx

Resale of tickets & scalping

7. Tickets may not, without the prior written consent of Ticketek and the Seller, be resold or offered for resale at a premium (including via on-line auction or other unauthorised resale sites) or used for advertising, promotion or other commercial purposes (including competitions and trade promotions) or to enhance the demand for other goods or services. If a ticket is sold or used in breach of this condition, the ticket may be cancelled without a refund and the ticketholder may be refused admission. Ticketek and/or the Seller will take all reasonable steps to notify you of Ticketek’s intention to cancel the ticket or render it invalid within a reasonable time before cancelling it or rendering it invalid.
SCALPING WARNING: The resale of tickets in certain circumstances is governed by ticket sales legislation and may attract criminal penalties.

And it seems Ticketmaster have no conditions beyond the law:

https://www.ticketmaster.com.au/h/purchase.html

Unlawful Re-Sale of Tickets; Commercial Purposes

There are laws in place in certain states that prohibit resale of tickets to certain events or limit the prices at which they may be resold. As a ticket purchaser, you are responsible for complying with any such laws. Please also check when booking for any event-specific terms imposed by a Presenter that may limit Your rights to resell a ticket.

A ticket shall not be used for advertising, promotions, contests or sweepstakes, unless formal written authorisation is given by the Presenter, provided that even if such consent is obtained, use of Ticketmaster's trademarks and other intellectual property is subject to Ticketmaster's express consent.[/quote

 

[Cruyff14]

Scalping is selling at a profit.

They were wrong. Selling at face value or less is not scalping.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Good chance the security and cops have just been told to move along anybody selling tickets to prevent scalping.

 

[SJ]

Yep it looks like what you were intending to do was okay.

I think the only thing you really did wrong was to think that a security guard would have any idea about the law other than what relates directly to their job.

I guess no one at the ground would encourage it - they would prefer people buy more tickets at the windows. Also there is that off chance you are selling dodgy/used tickets, no one wants that s**t going on.

Best bet is to get someone near the back of the line, offer to go up to the gate with them as well to ensure they are legit tickets.

I realise that. I didn't want to talk to security or the police, my aim was to just ask the question of the ground attendant because I thought I had nothing to hide. The security guard couldn't wait to get involved and up on his high horse.

 

[SJ]

Good chance the security and cops have just been told to move along anybody selling tickets to prevent scalping.

Do they have any right to do this?

 

[Cruyff14]

Most security guards don't have much between much the ears.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Do they have any right to do this?

No, probably not. But there's practicalities at play. They're dealing with employees who may have varying levels of intelligence, and no conflict resolution skills. And they're not really going to be able to confirm exactly the price that each unofficial sale is taking place at. I'd say they've just been told to try to piss people off if they see it around the ground.

Next time just be a bit more discreet, plenty of people do it. Realise that may be harder with a smaller crowd.

 

[Shell]

Next time just be a bit more discreet, plenty of people do it. Realise that may be harder with a smaller crowd.

Or just try and on sell the tickets here on BF next time SJ?

 

[SJ]

Or just try and on sell the tickets here on BF next time SJ?

I did.

 

[Keys]

AFL definition of scalping :

Game not sold out - giving tickets to potential patrons for less than or equal to face value who would otherwise have bought tickets = less money for AFL = scalping

Game close to sold out (like GF) - selling tickets at a premium to face value but less than exorbitantly priced AFL endorsed packages (read centre square) = less money for AFL = scalping

Game fully sold out (AFL can't get any more money) = no less money for AFL = they DGAF = not scalping

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

I get a fair few free tickets from work but since I'm an AFL member I normally just give them to someone with kids waiting in line. Should I not do this anymore?

 

[Shell]

Poor SJ, just wanting to onsell his tickets at the same price- paper today is reporting ppl scalping ANZAC tickets for over $1100.

Would not even pay for a GF for that amount, no where near it. /yes I know lucky me won't have that problem this year.

I get a fair few free tickets from work but since I'm an AFL member I normally just give them to someone with kids waiting in line. Should I not do this anymore?

No, give them to me instead.

 

[Stratton_Gun]

I've been to about 10 A-League games in my life. I reckon 5 times I've been lining up and someone has given me a free ticket srs

 

[Shell]

I've been to about 10 A-League games in my life. I reckon 5 times I've been lining up and someone has given me a free ticket srs

Still not worth it imo.