The Denis Pagan Era and its legacy

Forward Press

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He also made Matthew Capuano a two time premiership player.
Of course having players like Wayne Carey, Corey McKernan and Glenn Archer helped (premiership team has multiple star players, more news at 11), but the 1999 team had players of the ilk of Capuano, Allison, Sholl, Clayton and Welsh. Cam Mooney was famously in the starting 18 and didn't even touch the ball.

Carey is regularly included in GOAT discussions but it takes more than one superstar player to make finals and win flags which North consistently did in the 1990s. Pagan has to get credit for that surely.
 

JeanLucGoddard

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Of course having players like Wayne Carey, Corey McKernan and Glenn Archer helped (premiership team has multiple star players, more news at 11), but the 1999 team had players of the ilk of Capuano, Allison, Sholl, Clayton and Welsh. Cam Mooney was famously in the starting 18 and didn't even touch the ball.

Carey is regularly included in GOAT discussions but it takes more than one superstar player to make finals and win flags which North consistently did in the 1990s. Pagan has to get credit for that surely.
Exactly, St Kilda had an all time great match winning key forward in Lockett for years and did stuff all
 

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Franc de Borges

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A few of the links are tenuous at best.

“My mate called me for advice before a date, therefore his successful marriage can be attributed to me” type stuff.
 

footyfan78

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We won the prelim in 98.
Remember going to a final at G where think you lost by over 100. Must have been towards end of Pagan time there. Was probably a sign of where his coaching was at with a new approach needed. He just was not flexible enough to be regarded any better than good for a period of time with one group of players.
He has two more premierships than Ross Lyon and probably flatters him given Lyon was very close to two himself with one group of players.
 

JeanLucGoddard

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Remember going to a final at G where think you lost by over 100. Must have been towards end of Pagan time there. Was probably a sign of where his coaching was at with a new approach needed. He just was not flexible enough to be regarded any better than good for a period of time with one group of players.
He has two more premierships than Ross Lyon and probably flatters him given Lyon was very close to two himself with one group of players.
Right, Lyon the better record because he DIDN'T win flags.
 

Franc de Borges

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Ummm, why is it only Carlton supporters acting like this?

Kind of proves my point.
Acting like what? Simpson and Longmire are the only two that could really be considered to have been influenced by him.

I’m not dismissing the premise because you’re a North fan, it’s because it’s shit.
 
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footyfan78

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Right, Lyon the better record because he DIDN'T win flags.
Checked and was 125 point loss coached by Pagan in that final I went to, Had a double chance, eventually lost prelim by 50 points that season as other poster pointed out. Some very ugly finals results there towards end.

Ross Lyon does not have a better record.
But this thread has made me think where Pagan sits overall in coaches I seen and thinking it through I rate him and Lyon very similar in how well they coached and how stubborn they were to their own different styles. Pagan has the better record and tasted real success. Lyon was not far off and both of them were very good coaches but neither was very flexible. The way they both coached to me I conclude their strength is also their weakness. Rather have 2 flags than none though. Pagan can walk away knowing he at least reached the top of the mountain a few times. Lyon never will despite getting very close.
 
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footyfan78

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The fact that Pagan is Carlton's second best coach of the past twenty years makes it surprising that their supporters are so desperate to slag him off in this thread.
The fact you got no clue is evident many times over.
He is actually our worst coach of past 20 years.
I'd even take Malthouse over him and I can't stand Malthouse more. Malthouse at least adjusted at times when some of his things did not work.
 

footyfan78

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Wasn't Denis a Carlton supporter and that was part of the reason?
He played under 17's, 19's or reserves at Carlton. I think Barassi moved him on and went to South or somewhere else. Before my time but he had a little connection to Carlton from past but never done any good as player or coach.
 

Forward Press

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Wayne got us into finals. He was better than Denis.
He inherited a list that made the top 4 the previous year and the Grand Final the year before that. It would have been more astounding if they didn't play finals.

Yep, better than Denis too. Did some great groundwork for the next decade and allowed quite a number of youngsters to have great grounding development for when they mature.
I respect your view on Bolton but his winning percentage speaks for itself. Do you give credit to Dean Bailey for laying the 'groundwork' by having Melbourne being consistently shit and hoarding top youngsters?

I just don't understand the apparent hatred of Pagan as the worst ever coach by Carlton supporters when Malthouse, Brittain and Bolton were coaches in the past 20 years too.
 

footyfan78

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I respect your view on Bolton but his winning percentage speaks for itself.

I just don't understand the apparent hatred of Pagan as the worst ever coach by Carlton supporters when Malthouse, Brittain and Bolton were coaches in the past 20 years too.
Yeah, Bolton winning percentage is not good but it was from total build from ground zero and he done way more good than harm overall. Maybe Bolton would always just been an ok development type coach. He did plenty of good though. I don't hate Pagan at all, he is a good bloke overall. I just hated his coaching in that period. I do not hate the man.

Malthouse much closer to hatred and he is genuinely a bit of a selfish prick with his style and manner.

As for worst ever coach. Did not say that, he just worst of last 20 years imo. Some other clown that got no idea, said he was the best...ha ha
I think Percy Jones or Ian Stewart the worst coaches of Carlton in time I followed the club. Stewart did not even last two months.
Percy Jones coached us to a straights sets final exit between two other coaches either side of him, winning premiership each season before and after his only season there. That imo, worse than Pagan in my time of following Carlton.
 
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windyhill

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Pagan at North, brilliant. Pagan at carlton, not so brilliant. Just proves 101% that players make coaches, always have, always will.
 

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