The Denis Pagan Era and its legacy

[Beerfish]

Sheedy was smart enough not to risk that though.

So you're saying Denis was a fool for even trying at Carlton?

 

[footyfan1978]

He's not in same stratosphere as Sheedy.
Sheedy won premierships with different sets of players so showed he could coach with more than just one group and have ultimate success.

 

[footyfan1978]

So you're saying Denis was a fool for even trying at Carlton?

He was. Who agrees to a deal with a president being voted out?
It was ******* dumb and showed real lack of thought.

 

[Scotland]

IIRC Pagan signed with Carlton shortly before the salary cap penalties were handed down. If he knew what was coming surely he wouldn't have joined the Blues...

They were last when he took over so I don't know if miracles were expected, but Carlton performed better than they should have in 2004 winning 10 games. All fell apart after that and with Walker (2004) and then Murphy/Kennedy (2005), Gibbs (2006) and Kruezer + Judd via trade for Kennedy out (2007) they started to finally get back on track. No coach survives long term with a record as bad as Pagan's.

IMO Pagan's time at Carlton says more about Carlton than it does about Pagan. Throw money at someone else's successful coach and try to manufacture success overnight by recruiting ready made players. The draft restrictions (for continuing the Carlton tradition of buying success via players) just added insult to injury. They were competitive with Ratten/Judd but the Carlton arrogance shone through again and they went for Malthouse (who just wanted to stick it up Eddie) thinking they had another level when in reality Ratten got that group about as far as they could go. If you're not beating WC in 2011 you are not beating Hawthorn/Geelong/Collingwood/Sydney. Now they have Teague and they finished the season 6-5 from a 1-10 start. You can mark it down that if they have a couple of 10-12 win seasons the board will be sniffing around trying to buy Clarko or Longmire or Ross Lyon or whoever.

 

[Capriati]

Only dark dark days for his time at my club.
Even Malthouse was not as bad and no big fan of his.

Why is it that coaches who have each had tremendous success at previous club go to Carlton and then get s**t from Carlton fans?

Malthouse and Pagan are two of the greatest coaches of the modern era. If they went to Cartlon and they didn't have the impact they had previously, maybe it is because Carlton Football Club is shambles. Their list is a shambles, their club culture (jobs for the boys) is in shambles, their football department is in shamble (hi SOS!), and going off posts like the above, their supporters are in shambles too!

Coaches can't fix ****ed up clubs. Look at Richmond, it wasn't until they got the off-field stuff sorted out that they were able to start impacting on the field. Same is true for Carlton.

Reality is, Carlton has been a shambles and only reason they sit on 16 premierships is because the were busy buying flags with salary cap breaches and rorting the system.

It isn't Malthouse and Pagan that suck, it's Carlton Football Club.

 

[Sharpiesadog]

IIRC Pagan signed with Carlton shortly before the salary cap penalties were handed down. If he knew what was coming surely he wouldn't have joined the Blues...

They were last when he took over so I don't know if miracles were expected, but Carlton performed better than they should have in 2004 winning 10 games. All fell apart after that and with Walker (2004) and then Murphy/Kennedy (2005), Gibbs (2006) and Kruezer + Judd via trade for Kennedy out (2007) they started to finally get back on track. No coach survives long term with a record as bad as Pagan's.

IMO Pagan's time at Carlton says more about Carlton than it does about Pagan. Throw money at someone else's successful coach and try to manufacture success overnight by recruiting ready made players. The draft restrictions (for continuing the Carlton tradition of buying success via players) just added insult to injury. They were competitive with Ratten/Judd but the Carlton arrogance shone through again and they went for Malthouse (who just wanted to stick it up Eddie) thinking they had another level when in reality Ratten got that group about as far as they could go. If you're not beating WC in 2011 you are not beating Hawthorn/Geelong/Collingwood/Sydney. Now they have Teague and they finished the season 6-5 from a 1-10 start. You can mark it down that if they have a couple of 10-12 win seasons the board will be sniffing around trying to buy Clarko or Longmire or Ross Lyon or whoever.

I agree with most of this.

Also, I heard an interview with Pagan on SEN where he recounted that he asked the board which strategy they wished to follow: recycle players for a short term bounce but no long term success or go for youngsters even from the lower reaches of the draft to try and uncover some gems. They told him to go with recycled players, he gave them the dead cat bounce they wanted and he foresaw and also the downturn after that. They didn't like the downturn, clearly thought they knew more than him.

He was also asked when a coach knows his days are numbered. His reply was 'When the President stops coming into your office for a chat.'
He was then asked asked when that happened at Carlton. 'About a year and a half before they sacked me.'
He was then asked how he continued coaching in the light of that. He said 'Sometimes you just put 1 foot in front of the other and do your very best until told otherwise.'
Always thought that was good advice, have followed it a few times in my life!

 

[footyfan1978]

Why is it that coaches who have each had tremendous success at previous club go to Carlton and then get s**t from Carlton fans?

My post is my opinion. It is not all Carlton fans positing.
I was asked about Pagan in thread. Gave my opinion and your generalisation of he just getting s**t is dumb considering I give him credit for success of premierships.
It is what it is. He did not coach well at my club. As a result I do not regard him as a great coach but a good coach that had a great period with one group of players. I listened to him talk as our coach and there was some very unimpressive things said by him that highlighted to me it was not going to go well. Furthermore of his time there, I do not recall players speaking of his coaching in any great regard. His mean legacy was excellent under 19's level coach and then some of those players he got again in their early 20's and he built a wonderful game plan around that group that tasted two premierships. His legacy is about the good and the bad.

 

[The Warlord]

So you're saying Denis was a fool for even trying at Carlton?

Nah, I reckon Denis put $$$ over his pride.

He knew Carlton were his one last payday and took it.

Knowing they'd be s**t.

 

[Beerfish]

He was definitely a pragmatist but then again most good coaches are.

 

[footyfan1978]

He was definitely a pragmatist

Which was both his strength and weakness.

 

[branedotorg]

Came for the real estate gags, leaving (mostly) disappointed

 

[Robertio]

Why is it that coaches who have each had tremendous success at previous club go to Carlton and then get s**t from Carlton fans?

Malthouse and Pagan are two of the greatest coaches of the modern era. If they went to Cartlon and they didn't have the impact they had previously, maybe it is because Carlton Football Club is shambles. Their list is a shambles, their club culture (jobs for the boys) is in shambles, their football department is in shamble (hi SOS!), and going off posts like the above, their supporters are in shambles too!

Coaches can't fix f’ed up clubs. Look at Richmond, it wasn't until they got the off-field stuff sorted out that they were able to start impacting on the field. Same is true for Carlton.

Reality is, Carlton has been a shambles and only reason they sit on 16 premierships is because the were busy buying flags with salary cap breaches and rorting the system.

It isn't Malthouse and Pagan that suck, it's Carlton Football Club.

Carlton were never charged by the AFL for breaching the salary cap in 95, so by opening your mouth i suppose you have proof. I would like to see it.

 

[footyfan1978]

Carlton were never charged by the AFL for breaching the salary cap in 95, so by opening your mouth i suppose you have proof. I would like to see it.

By opening his mouth showed how flawed his whole thinking is. Just a s**t talker basically.

 

[Robertio]

Nah, I reckon Denis put $$$ over his pride.

He knew Carlton were his one last payday and took it.

Knowing they'd be s**t.

You started this thread mate, and now your trying to turn it into a anti Carlton thread. Better make your mind up or is that what you are really after?

 

[PhatBoy]

Isn’t there a current premiership coach from the last decade missing?

 

[The Warlord]

Isn’t there a current premiership coach from the last decade missing?

Probably - who though?

 

[The Warlord]

Isn’t there a current premiership coach from the last decade missing?

Oh yes, Chris Scotts, I'll amend.

 

[BF Tiger]

He coached seven consecutive prelims in a decade. Those players you mention like Carey and Mckernan, he developed in the under 19s.

Aagin, Carlton people proving my point that the shitshow there at the end of his career has affected how he's viewed overall.

It happening in one decade isn’t a greater achievement than it happening across two decades.

Great coach. Record at North was backed up by his achievements in U19s and reserves.

Carlton was a pity.

 

[The Warlord]

It happening in one decade isn’t a greater achievement than it happening across two decades.

Great coach. Record at North was backed up by his achievements in U19s and reserves.

Carlton was a pity.

Yep, agree.

It is post coaching that's interesting.

I'd say Dimma was limited by the Pagan like attitude he had with you to start though.

 

[Capriati]

Carlton were never charged by the AFL for breaching the salary cap in 95, so by opening your mouth i suppose you have proof. I would like to see it.

Oh please, that is the equivalent of bombers saying that Essendon players were not guilty as there was no positive tests.

Carlton was found of major salary cap breaches in 94 and 99. You know as well as I do that player payments are front and back loaded. If a club breaches a salary cap in one year it has flow on affects the following years. Ie, money spent on Silvagni via cap breach in 94 means that less of his ‘agreed salary’ needs to be paid in 95.

Ultimately, the dealings of the club crippled it for a decade, and reality the club is only seeing the light of day now almost two decades on.

Yeah you want argue technicalities with me and your ilk want to place the blame at the feet of Malthouse and pagan, when really, you should be directing it at the club for the choice they made!

Typical Carlton fan, looking to blame others instead of looking at the culture and decision made by club leadership.


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[Bulldog Brent]

His hair was his greatest legacy ...

 

[Joey JoJo Shabad]

a

I nearly rented an apartment off him.

I'm guessing Denis wasn't happy with the fake agent audition you went in for......

Is that the main reason you didn't end up getting the apartment ?.

 

[The Warlord]

Came for the real estate gags, leaving (mostly) disappointed

Poor Ryan had a board up on Flemington Road for about a year. Just imagine every time they drive past Denis grilling him about it.

 

[The Warlord]

a

I'm guessing Denis wasn't happy with the fake agent audition you went in for......

Is that the main reason you didn't end up getting the apartment ?.

Nah didn't apply. It was in that big tower opposite the flats - I think Mofra has done the Lord's Work there- he's got his offices in.

I was wearing a North polo because I am a loser and also we were playing that arvo but it wasn't Denis showing the apartment obvs.

In the lift a resident revealed he was also a North supporter and he actually rented direct from Denis and that he'd jokingly done the "discount for a member" thing and Denis had given him a full Pagan death stare and gone "The full amount will be payable on the 23rd".

I can't believe I just typed all that out.

 

[Turnover]

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