Society/Culture The distrust of education

[peetoo]

The well off spread it, the battlers died from it

 

[Better Loosen Up]

What annoys me most is that there doesn't seem to have been any learnings taken away from the pandemic to have a record of a best practice approach if something like this happens again in the future which no doubt it will.

Obviously you're never going to come up with a rule book that is going to suit everyone but we need to have a plan ready for next time.

Those who say we shouldn't have lockdown measures or should have opened up, obviously didn't pay much attention to what other countries who did exactly that were going through. A simple youtube search will show you the horrors of that approach.

One thing I felt was lacking from the last pandemic was government and our major free to air tv channels educating the public on how viruses work and why the lockdown measures were necessary, especially whilst there wasn't enough of the population vaccinated. Instead people decided to go to Facebook University for their education which was an absolute fail.

 

[The Punter]

We have a word for what people learn from things, and it's a noun and it already exists: lessons.

 

[Better Loosen Up]

We have a word for what people learn from things, and it's a noun and it already exists: lessons.

Often times these "lessons" are easily forgotten or ignored.

 

[ElectricG]

As the classic ad says;

Investment in healthcare and lockdowns was probably the optimal combination (along with other measures).

Lockdowns like we had in VIC are undoubtedly a blunt instrument, but people forget that right at the very start we tried the softly, softly approach and there were rich folk in Toorak (or similar) having dinner parties with their mates freshly returned from overseas spreading it.

Literally at every turn when the government gave people an inch, people took a mile, then complained that the government was being heavy handed.

No one ever claimed there'd be no negative consequences from lockdowns, and very early on it was recognised that not all kids had equal access to computers and internet, or had parents that could assist them with their learning.

The way I see it is we had two issues:
1. A deadly pandemic; and
2. The march of capitalism has brought us to a point where our healthcare system is so white-anted and contracted-out that the it cannot adequately respond to [1].

And out of these two issues, only one is unprecedented. I read in an article the statement that “the only thing unprecedented about this pandemic is our response to it” and as months have turned into years I have come to agree with it and see [2] as the problem. Rather than make sure there’s a hospital bed for everyone, we’re instead told to stay inside and fed some national sentiment of “doing the right thing”, as if it were a problem of our making.

You’re clearly on board with more investment into public health but I’m not sure I agree with the lockdowns as a double tap. I think some people don’t realise the unfathomable cost of shutting down entire sectors of our economy and putting those people on welfare. Given that there will be more pandemics, I don’t see the lockdown model as sustainable. People are still using the term “post covid” as if the world changed with that event, and it did. But it wasn’t covid - how are you different for having had the disease? You’re not. You got a bit sick and then got better (most likely). We are “post covid” because of lockdowns. Is the post covid world a better or worse one? Do we need to change the world every time there’s a pandemic?

If the lesson we take away from this pandemic is to be more compliant with lockdowns so we can keep running this crappy system, then ultimately I think that’s a lost opportunity.

 

[Better Loosen Up]

The way I see it is we had two issues:
1. A deadly pandemic; and
2. The march of capitalism has brought us to a point where our healthcare system is so white-anted and contracted-out that the it cannot adequately respond to [1].

And out of these two issues, only one is unprecedented. I read in an article the statement that “the only thing unprecedented about this pandemic is our response to it” and as months have turned into years I have come to agree with it and see [2] as the problem. Rather than make sure there’s a hospital bed for everyone, we’re instead told to stay inside and fed some national sentiment of “doing the right thing”, as if it were a problem of our making.

You’re clearly on board with more investment into public health but I’m not sure I agree with the lockdowns as a double tap. I think some people don’t realise the unfathomable cost of shutting down entire sectors of our economy and putting those people on welfare. Given that there will be more pandemics, I don’t see the lockdown model as sustainable. People are still using the term “post covid” as if the world changed with that event, and it did. But it wasn’t covid - how are you different for having had the disease? You’re not. You got a bit sick and then got better (most likely). We are “post covid” because of lockdowns. Is the post covid world a better or worse one? Do we need to change the world every time there’s a pandemic?

If the lesson we take away from this pandemic is to be more compliant with lockdowns so we can keep running this crappy system, then ultimately I think that’s a lost opportunity.

I look at it from a different perspective.

Not all new viruses are the same or behave the same way. Take Sars for example. Sars was unable to be transmitted until the carrier had been infected and symptomatic for quite a number of days. This is ample time to test and isolate the infected person before it can spread meaning with the right processes in place, there was no need for major lockdowns. The Hendra virus was different again in that it had a fatal flaw in that it's kill rate was so high (50% or more) plus is wasn't as easily transmitted to humans meaning that it basically snuffed itself out with a pretty simple and localised health response.

Covid was different. It was more like the perfect virus. It could be transmitted before symptoms presented and it could infect far more hosts than it killed. Hence why it will now continue to live in some form forever. This is what makes it a far more deadly virus. It killed what, 1% of its hosts yet that's millions of people. Plus it has been life changing for many others.

So in my mind, the fight against Covid was a war! A virus that could easily kill. And until vaccines were available, our only way of winning this war was isolation supported by testing and tracing until the chains of transmission could be identified and stamped out. If everyone isolates effectively, the virus has no chance and would be killed off within a month. The only challenge then is to have the right processes in place so it can't come back. This is where our government failed us. This is where the learnings need to be made for the future.

Have a hospital bed for everyone? Not enough! Not only would you need a bed for everyone, a vast number of those beds would need to be ICU beds supported by fully trained ICU staff and equipment. It's simply not feasible.

You need to have a look on youtube like i suggested of ICU's in other countries at the time that were 4 times their normal size and they simply couldn't cope. On top of that you end up having some of these ICU staff becoming infected and dying as well making the situation even worse.

Whilst isolation is not ideal it was necessary. And some of the additional rules (not all) were necessary too because unfortunately, too many people make really dumb decisions.

 

[ElectricG]

The only challenge then is to have the right processes in place so it can't come back. This is where our government failed us.

Isn’t the going wisdom that eliminating a flu virus through isolation is basically impossible?

Below is last week’s covid stats. Nearly 2000 infected and 24 dead. What should we be doing about this, do you think?

 

[Gethelred]

We have a word for what people learn from things, and it's a noun and it already exists: lessons.

Tell John Worsfold that.

 

[Better Loosen Up]

Isn’t the going wisdom that eliminating a flu virus through isolation is basically impossible?

Below is last week’s covid stats. Nearly 2000 infected and 24 dead. What should we be doing about this, do you think?
View attachment 1871352

Covid is NOT a flu virus. Not even remotely related to the flu in any way in terms of its DNA or RNA or whatever it is.

 

[Better Loosen Up]

Isn’t the going wisdom that eliminating a flu virus through isolation is basically impossible?

Below is last week’s covid stats. Nearly 2000 infected and 24 dead. What should we be doing about this, do you think?
View attachment 1871352

Nothing we can do about it now apart from having vaccines and the anti-virals available for those who need it.

Over time, Covid like many other deadly viruses from the past will mutate itself to the point where it is no longer potentially deadly like what it is today.

 

[ElectricG]

Covid is NOT a flu virus. Not even remotely related to the flu in any way in terms of its DNA or RNA or whatever it is.

Okay. You’re right on that.

 

[owen87]

Tell John Worsfold that.

The dictionary is wrong, the correct word is learnings.

 

[owen87]

The way I see it is we had two issues:
1. A deadly pandemic; and
2. The march of capitalism has brought us to a point where our healthcare system is so white-anted and contracted-out that the it cannot adequately respond to [1].

And out of these two issues, only one is unprecedented. I read in an article the statement that “the only thing unprecedented about this pandemic is our response to it” and as months have turned into years I have come to agree with it and see [2] as the problem. Rather than make sure there’s a hospital bed for everyone, we’re instead told to stay inside and fed some national sentiment of “doing the right thing”, as if it were a problem of our making.

You’re clearly on board with more investment into public health but I’m not sure I agree with the lockdowns as a double tap. I think some people don’t realise the unfathomable cost of shutting down entire sectors of our economy and putting those people on welfare. Given that there will be more pandemics, I don’t see the lockdown model as sustainable. People are still using the term “post covid” as if the world changed with that event, and it did. But it wasn’t covid - how are you different for having had the disease? You’re not. You got a bit sick and then got better (most likely). We are “post covid” because of lockdowns. Is the post covid world a better or worse one? Do we need to change the world every time there’s a pandemic?

If the lesson we take away from this pandemic is to be more compliant with lockdowns so we can keep running this crappy system, then ultimately I think that’s a lost opportunity.

There's covid the disease and covid the 'phenomenon'.

When people talk about a post-Covid world they're talking about the phenomenon. Basically since WW2 there's not been a major global event of that scale. Covid was the first time in close to 80 years we had the entire world dragged in to a shared situation that required personal action to be taken to prevent substantial society-wide impacts. We saw that a lot of people are incredibly selfish and would do almost anything to avoid personal inconvenience even if it brought suffering upon others.

There's plenty of lessons we could (should) be taking from the covid phenomenon; better understanding how a pandemic occurs and spreads in the modern world where societies are deeply interconnected, the weaknesses and failures of things like the healthcare system, government responses, social responses and so on.

Lockdowns are an inherently blunt instrument there's no doubt about that, and it's not necessarily viable in all situations or all countries. They worked in Australia because as a country we're very isolated but had there been better controls at a border level (hotel quarantine in Victoria was notoriously leaky for example) they may not have been necessary at all. WA cut themselves off from the world and as a hermit kingdom with very limited access points it meant they avoided any of the lockdowns despite generally being pretty poor at stuff like social distancing and mask wearing when I went there in 2021.

We also got incredibly lucky with timing, if it had been even 3 or so years earlier there wasn't the vaccine platform technology yet to allow the fairly rapid testing and production of effective and safe vaccines that saw them provide a real pathway out of the most dangerous part of the pandemic.

 

[Rusty Brookes]

Covid was by no means unprecedented nor were a lot of the measures. A quick reading of the response to the Spanish flu shows pretty much the same stuff happened: border closures, mandated masks, closure of public gathering places, sham cures and development of a vaccine in a really short amount of time. Big difference was with technology, we were in a much better place to deal with the response than those from a hundred years before.

State Library Victoria When Spanish Flu came to Victoria

Spanish flu arrived in Australia in January 1919. With masks, closures, quarantine, inter-governmental squabbles and death, the events of a century ago resonate very keenly today.

blogs.slv.vic.gov.au

Spanish flu pandemic reaches Australia | Australia’s Defining Moments Digital Classroom | National Museum of Australia

At the end of the First World War, in 1918 and 1919, an influenza pandemic killed an estimated 50 million people worldwide. As an island, Australia was able to quarantine people when they arrived by sea. All the same, up to 15,000 Australians died of the flu in 1919.

digital-classroom.nma.gov.au

 

[ElectricG]

Covid was by no means unprecedented nor were a lot of the measures. A quick reading of the response to the Spanish flu shows pretty much the same stuff happened: border closures, mandated masks, closure of public gathering places, sham cures and development of a vaccine in a really short amount of time. Big difference was with technology, we were in a much better place to deal with the response than those from a hundred years before.

State Library Victoria When Spanish Flu came to Victoria

Spanish flu arrived in Australia in January 1919. With masks, closures, quarantine, inter-governmental squabbles and death, the events of a century ago resonate very keenly today.

blogs.slv.vic.gov.au

Spanish flu pandemic reaches Australia | Australia’s Defining Moments Digital Classroom | National Museum of Australia

At the end of the First World War, in 1918 and 1919, an influenza pandemic killed an estimated 50 million people worldwide. As an island, Australia was able to quarantine people when they arrived by sea. All the same, up to 15,000 Australians died of the flu in 1919.

digital-classroom.nma.gov.au

I don’t think it’s splitting hairs to say not having lockdowns was a key difference

 

[Better Loosen Up]

I don’t think it’s splitting hairs to say not having lockdowns was a key difference

You think there was no lockdowns for the Spanish Flu? Cities in the US did practice some form of isolation and mask wearing.

 

[peetoo]

There's covid the disease and covid the 'phenomenon'.

When people talk about a post-Covid world they're talking about the phenomenon. Basically since WW2 there's not been a major global event of that scale. Covid was the first time in close to 80 years we had the entire world dragged in to a shared situation that required personal action to be taken to prevent substantial society-wide impacts. We saw that a lot of people are incredibly selfish and would do almost anything to avoid personal inconvenience even if it brought suffering upon others.

There's plenty of lessons we could (should) be taking from the covid phenomenon; better understanding how a pandemic occurs and spreads in the modern world where societies are deeply interconnected, the weaknesses and failures of things like the healthcare system, government responses, social responses and so on.

Lockdowns are an inherently blunt instrument there's no doubt about that, and it's not necessarily viable in all situations or all countries. They worked in Australia because as a country we're very isolated but had there been better controls at a border level (hotel quarantine in Victoria was notoriously leaky for example) they may not have been necessary at all. WA cut themselves off from the world and as a hermit kingdom with very limited access points it meant they avoided any of the lockdowns despite generally being pretty poor at stuff like social distancing and mask wearing when I went there in 2021.

We also got incredibly lucky with timing, if it had been even 3 or so years earlier there wasn't the vaccine platform technology yet to allow the fairly rapid testing and production of effective and safe vaccines that saw them provide a real pathway out of the most dangerous part of the pandemic.

In the latter months, uninfected people were getting covid in hotel quarantine. All hail the bean counters who decided actual quarantine facilities were history a few years prior

 

[owen87]

You think there was no lockdowns for the Spanish Flu? Cities in the US did practice some form of isolation and mask wearing.

Working remotely via the internet wasn't exactly much of an option back then.

 

[Better Loosen Up]

Working remotely via the internet wasn't exactly much of an option back then.

Even back then they were able to work out that social distancing, isolation and mask wearing were effective tools against the spread of a virus. Well, except for Philadelphia that is.

 

[ElectricG]

Even back then they were able to work out that social distancing, isolation and mask wearing were effective tools against the spread of a virus. Well, except for Philadelphia that is.

Fwiw I think all of those seem like reasonable measure

 

[Gethelred]

I'd like to gently remind people that this thread isn't about covid or lockdowns.

If you'd like to continue discussing this, the old thread is here:

Covid-19 - Wuhan Coronavirus (COVID-19) - Part 5 - Get vaccinated.

https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Documents/in-focus/covid-19-vaccination-case-surveillance-051121.pdf In the peak fortnight of the outbreak to date (25 August to 7 September), the COVID-19 case rate among 2-dose vaccinated people was 49.5 per 100,000 while in unvaccinated...

www.bigfooty.com