The Elephant in the Room.

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Pykie

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The elephant in the room is we have some senior players being carried by some younger players at the moment.


Funnily enough it's probably some of these senior players holding back the side at the moment, rather than the inexperienced players holding us back.

Ziebell, Brown, Atley, Hall, MacMillan, Wood and even Pittard (to a lesser extent) have been down right terrible or underwhelming for most of the year.

We are talking senior, big $$$, 200+ gamers here that should be carrying this side.

I don't think any of them would be in the top 10 of the B&F at the moment and that's an indictment on all of them

Goldstein, Cunnington, Higgins, Tarrant, Walker and Polec are the only 'senior' players that have really earn'y their pay cheques this year to date.
 

The chorus

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Sydney and Hawthorn applied a lot of pressure to us and we responded by going into our shells: seldom playing on, not running with the ball, kicking short and sideways, and in short taking an eternity to get the ball into a crowded forward line. Late in both games we finally got some urgency and moved the ball quickly into our forward line and surprise, surprise we kicked some goals. We are good at applying pressure ourselves, but we are not so good at responding when other teams pressure us.
 

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Thewlis Dish

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Sydney and Hawthorn applied a lot of pressure to us and we responded by going into our shells: seldom playing on, not running with the ball, kicking short and sideways, and in short taking an eternity to get the ball into a crowded forward line. Late in both games we finally got some urgency and moved the ball quickly into our forward line and surprise, surprise we kicked some goals. We are good at applying pressure ourselves, but we are not so good at responding when other teams pressure us.
Very often it's the more senior guys who don't cope with the pressure too - Atley hasn't worked it out in 200 games and McDonald, Anderson and Pittard seemed to be having a personal competition as to who could take the worst option in the first three quarters. The less said about Jack the better, although he has never had a high footy IQ and has gotten by on intense competitiveness and sheer will.

Meanwhile Jy is a genius in tight spaces, Kyron always seems to wait for the smart option and Mahoney looked extremely composed.
 

GarnerSmash

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its bullshit, thats how it is.

We're a game away from top 4, lost two close games with out our best player and have shown our best can beat anyone.
I'm not sold that he was 100 % on the money, but I do think that he was not 100% wrong.

I don't think our form has been crash hot at all and the evidence I see tells me that teams who meet our physical challenge do us on the outside with quality. Quality teams can play different ways when they need to and I don't think we have that capacity primarily due to the pieces we have to play with.

I think there is a strong argument that we are going to need to get more quality in, and soon, because we don't have the skills across the board to challenge at the pointy end of the year, and too much of our proven quality is far closer to the end than the middle or beginning.

Higgins (32), Tarrant (31), Goldstein (32), Cunnington (29) are our top 4 players. We will be relying on these guys playing on for a number of years without drop off in form, fitness or desire.

Our next three in terms of quality are Simpkin (22), Polec (27), Brown (27).

In terms of quality we then have a whole heap of average players: Ziebell (cooked), Atley, Pittard, Williams, McDonald, MacMillan, Hall, Anderson, Dumont (role players), a bunch of guys on the chopping block in Garner, Wood, Tyson, Turner, Durdin, McKay, Ahern and then a group of promising juniors. If history tells us anything its that not all promising juniors turn into regular AFL players. It would be great if all of Thomas, Taylor, LDU, Zurhaar, Larkey, Mahoney, Perez, Comben, Walker, Scott, Hayden, Xerri, Bonar etc kick on but odds are that at least half won't. I hope to fu** that I am wrong.

We could conceivably chop 12 players without batting an eyelid, the equivalent or roughly two full drafts, including rookie drafts.

Lets do a hypothetical snap shot of 2023, with Higgins, Tarrant, Cunners, Goldy, Ziebell, Atley, MacMillan, Garner, Wood et al gone.

B: Williams - Walker - Pittard
HB: Hayden - ??? - McDonald
C: Scott - Simpkin - Polec
HF: Walker - Larkey - Taylor
F: Mahoney - Brown - Zurhaar
R: Xerri - Thomas - LDU
Int: Perez - Bonar - Dumont - Anderson

There's a lot if inexperience there, meaning we are relying on a lot of our young guys to kick on, with no guarantee that they will. We are really going to have to nail the draft in the next few years, and nail our development if we want to create a team that can challenge at the very top for a sustained period. If we don't, we are going to lose a great deal of quality in the short term that we will really struggle to replace.
 

kangatime

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I'm not sold that he was 100 % on the money, but I do think that he was not 100% wrong.

I don't think our form has been crash hot at all and the evidence I see tells me that teams who meet our physical challenge do us on the outside with quality. Quality teams can play different ways when they need to and I don't think we have that capacity primarily due to the pieces we have to play with.

I think there is a strong argument that we are going to need to get more quality in, and soon, because we don't have the skills across the board to challenge at the pointy end of the year, and too much of our proven quality is far closer to the end than the middle or beginning.

Higgins (32), Tarrant (31), Goldstein (32), Cunnington (29) are our top 4 players. We will be relying on these guys playing on for a number of years without drop off in form, fitness or desire.

Our next three in terms of quality are Simpkin (22), Polec (27), Brown (27).

In terms of quality we then have a whole heap of average players: Ziebell (cooked), Atley, Pittard, Williams, McDonald, MacMillan, Hall, Anderson, Dumont (role players), a bunch of guys on the chopping block in Garner, Wood, Tyson, Turner, Durdin, McKay, Ahern and then a group of promising juniors. If history tells us anything its that not all promising juniors turn into regular AFL players. It would be great if all of Thomas, Taylor, LDU, Zurhaar, Larkey, Mahoney, Perez, Comben, Walker, Scott, Hayden, Xerri, Bonar etc kick on but odds are that at least half won't. I hope to fu** that I am wrong.

We could conceivably chop 12 players without batting an eyelid, the equivalent or roughly two full drafts, including rookie drafts.

Lets do a hypothetical snap shot of 2023, with Higgins, Tarrant, Cunners, Goldy, Ziebell, Atley, MacMillan, Garner, Wood et al gone.

B: Williams - Walker - Pittard
HB: Hayden - ??? - McDonald
C: Scott - Simpkin - Polec
HF: Walker - Larkey - Taylor
F: Mahoney - Brown - Zurhaar
R: Xerri - Thomas - LDU
Int: Perez - Bonar - Dumont - Anderson

There's a lot if inexperience there, meaning we are relying on a lot of our young guys to kick on, with no guarantee that they will. We are really going to have to nail the draft in the next few years, and nail our development if we want to create a team that can challenge at the very top for a sustained period. If we don't, we are going to lose a great deal of quality in the short term that we will really struggle to replace.
Every team need to replace experienced players, its what happens. over 2 years we'll replace nearly a quarter of the squad.

If every player listed plays every game until beginning of 2023 (with no finals) average games are (with ??? playing 0 game)
back 6: 80 games
Mid 6: 76 games
Fwd 6: 67 games
Int: 4: 76 games.

Add in any experienced players we trade in and we'll have plenty of experience.
 

GarnerSmash

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Every team need to replace experienced players, its what happens. over 2 years we'll replace nearly a quarter of the squad.

If every player listed plays every game until beginning of 2023 (with no finals) average games are (with ??? playing 0 game)
back 6: 80 games
Mid 6: 76 games
Fwd 6: 67 games
Int: 4: 76 games.

Add in any experienced players we trade in and we'll have plenty of experience.
And the odds of that are pretty ******* slim.

We need to use these two firsts this year for locked in, 12+ year quality footballers. We need to recruit quality RFA's both this year and next (Williams and Kelly pls) and use next years first wisely. We are walking a fairly tight ledge here and we will want to make every step count.
 

DesertRoo

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Ziebell should play the Aaron Hamill role, basically muscle for the young kids. Let them run around kick goals, create, get out of their way but be first in if a defender tries to bully them.
coz we know brown and our taller boys arent able to fill that void.
He also needs to give off as many goals as he can, to get the kids in the game.
Will be a thankless role but hell of an important one, until they develop bodies for AFL.
 
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kangatime

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And the odds of that are pretty ******* slim.

We need to use these two firsts this year for locked in, 12+ year quality footballers. We need to recruit quality RFA's both this year and next (Williams and Kelly pls) and use next years first wisely. We are walking a fairly tight ledge here and we will want to make every step count.
sure, but you are the one looking to 2023. There's 2 trade periods and 2 drafts before then. This time last year would you have known we would have a 89 game tall defender in Walker playing so well? Plus there's every chance Goldy and Taz could still be playing in 23.

Of course we want to nail the draft, all teams do, but not just the 1st round. Picking up 3rd rounders like Taylor is how teams can improve quickly.
 

King Corey

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How's this for an elephant.

Maybe Bradley was right when he said we needed a rebuild.
Must admit it crossed my mind too.

We were trying yesterday for the most part and the hawks at least matched us physically then simply used it much better for quick transitions.

A few times before the last desperate minutes we tried it and someone would either then hold it up too long fearful of butchering the pass or someone would double grab and break it all down.

That's just class and touch. You don't expect to ever reach the level of a blank cheque expansion team's first season list, but you need more than we have.
 

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GarnerSmash

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sure, but you are the one looking to 2023. There's 2 trade periods and 2 drafts before then. This time last year would you have known we would have a 89 game tall defender in Walker playing so well? Plus there's every chance Goldy and Taz could still be playing in 23.

Of course we want to nail the draft, all teams do, but not just the 1st round. Picking up 3rd rounders like Taylor is how teams can improve quickly.
I'm thinking that we pretty much need to nail almost every pick in the next two years, get in quality FA's and have all kids develop into regular AFL players for us to even be in a position to challenge post Taz/Goldy/Higgo/Cunners/Ziebell/Atley/JMac et al. A hell of a lot has to go right.
 

Chadwiko

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Ziebell is struggling and I'm not sure if it's because his body isn't right, or whatever. But he's really hurting the side.

Brown however still deserves his spot in our 22. We've been doing him no favours with our forward delivery and we're badly missing that second key forward that our game-plan/structure is designed around.
 

Horizons_00

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Just seen the shot of him staring into space by himself on the boundary. Looked very contemplative. Sad 😕
That was a compelling moment.

Maybe Jack feels like it’s getting close to the end for him or he doesn’t feel up to being a captain anymore. His face was a man going through some serious self reflection

Would be so frustrating for him
 

Passmore

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That was a compelling moment.

Maybe Jack feels like it’s getting close to the end for him or he doesn’t feel up to being a captain anymore. His face was a man going through some serious self reflection

Would be so frustrating for him
I instinctively read that first line in a Gerard Whateley tone.
 

shimaburnsgrieg

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Ziebell is struggling and I'm not sure if it's because his body isn't right, or whatever. But he's really hurting the side.

Brown however still deserves his spot in our 22. We've been doing him no favours with our forward delivery and we're badly missing that second key forward that our game-plan/structure is designed around.
What you say is true about BBB but that doesn't paint him in a very positive light.

That is, what you are saying is that he needs all the conditions re delivery, structure and personnel to perfectly suit him before he can perform.

And when conditions do suit him why does he jump one handed - like hailing a cab at 3am after 9 hours on the booze?

Don't get me wrong - he has shown he can perform well when it all goes in his favour.

However what we'd like to see - and what would command $3m over 4 years - is the ability to turn the game in our favour when conditions aren't perfect for him. That's the difference between a great forward and a good forward.
 

shimaburnsgrieg

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Ziebell should play the Aaron Hamill role, basically muscle for the young kids. Let them run around kick goals, create, get out of their way but be first in if a defender tries to bully them.
coz we know brown and our taller boys arent able to fill that void.
He also needs to give off as many goals as he can, to get the kids in the game.
Will be a thankless role but hell of an important one, until they develop bodies for AFL.
I thought that was his role already?
 

Clarke is King

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What you say is true about BBB but that doesn't paint him in a very positive light.

That is, what you are saying is that he needs all the conditions re delivery, structure and personnel to perfectly suit him before he can perform.

And when conditions do suit him why does he jump one handed - like hailing a cab at 3am after 9 hours on the booze?

Don't get me wrong - he has shown he can perform well when it all goes in his favour.

However what we'd like to see - and what would command $3m over 4 years - is the ability to turn the game in our favour when conditions aren't perfect for him. That's the difference between a great forward and a good forward.
The one handed marking attempts drive me mad. Ben Brown is good at leading and marking when conditions are suitable, otherwise he is a liability. Can see Larkey overtaking him as the main man in the next couple of years.
 

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