Discussion The Evolution of the Saints List

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Grant Thomas had this playing list in 2006

2006 List in age order::

Code:
   Name              Games Age Date of Birth Height Weight Origin Position  
  Harvey, Robert (V+)   340 35 21 Aug 1971 181cm 84kg Seaford Midfield  
  Thompson, Andrew      211 33 21 Oct 1972 180cm 81kg Old Melburnians Midfield  
  Gehrig, Fraser        235 30 03 Mar 1976 195cm 104kg Murray Bushrangers Forward  
  Hudghton, Max         194 30 02 Sep 1976 191cm 92kg Northern Knights Defender  
  Hamill, Aaron         190 29 20 Aug 1977 184cm 94kg Tuggeranong Forward  
  Voss, Brett           159 28 22 Feb 1978 181cm 84kg Morningside Defender   
  Hayes, Lenny          149 26 14 Jan 1980 186cm 85kg Pennant Hills Midfield  
  Milne, Stephen        119 26 08 Mar 1980 176cm 80kg Dandenong Stingrays Forward  
  Baker, Steven         134 26 22 May 1980 179cm 83kg Geelong Falcons Midfield  
  Michael Rix            11 25 08 Jan 1981 200cm 100kg Coburg Ruck
  Blake, Jason           91 25 15 Mar 1981 189cm 87kg Beaumaris Ruck Utility  
  Fiora, Aaron          108 25 19 Apr 1981 186cm 80kg Port Adelaide Winger/Flanker  
  Schwarze, Troy         71 24 23 Dec 1981 190cm 89kg Dingley Defender  
  Ackland, Cain          53 24 16 Mar 1982 196cm 96kg Port Adelaide Ruck  
  Murray, Allan          16 24 20 May 1982 180cm 83kg Murray Bushrangers Forward  
  Fisher, Sam            51 24 10 Jul 1982 191cm 88kg West Adelaide Defender  
  Koschitzke, Justin     78 24 20 Sep 1982 197cm 96kg Murray Bushrangers Ruck KPP  
  Riewoldt, Nick        114 23 17 Oct 1982 193cm 95kg Southport Forward    
  Clarke, Xavier         79 22 28 Sep 1983 181cm 80kg St Marys Forward  
  Montagna, Leigh        52 22 02 Nov 1983 178cm 76kg Northern Knights Midfield  
  Brooks, Barry           8 22 24 Dec 1983 198cm 95kg Grassy Ruck  
  Dal Santo, Nick        98 22 22 Feb 1984 185cm 83kg Bendigo Pioneers Midfield  
  Fisher, Leigh          25 22 19 Apr 1984 184cm 90kg Mentone Grammar Midfield  
  Gram, Jason            32 22 27 Apr 1984 186cm 84kg Gippsland Power Defender  
  Ball, Luke             86 22 25 May 1984 183cm 84kg Sandringham Dragons Midfield  
  Maguire, Matthew       85 22 30 May 1984 190cm 96kg Geelong Falcons Defender  
  McGough, Mark          49 22 22 Jun 1984 188cm 88kg Murray Bushrangers Midfield  
  Ferguson, Matthew       8 21 01 Oct 1984 187cm 87kg Heyfield Forward  
  [COLOR="lime"]Pfitzner, Dylan (R)     0 20 13 Apr 1985 196cm 82kg Central District Forward[/COLOR]  
  Goddard, Brendon       83 21 20 May 1985 189cm 96kg Traralgon Utility 
  Watts, Fergus           6 21 21 Sep 1985 195cm 95kg Sandringham Dragons Forward
  Clarke, Raphael        22 20 24 Sep 1985 188cm 82kg St Mary's Defender  
  McQualter, Andrew      17 20 09 Jun 1986 179cm 79kg Gippsland Power Midfield  
  Gwilt, James            5 20 11 Aug 1986 188cm 88kg Noble Park Utility  
  Gilbert, Sam            2 20 19 Aug 1986 194cm 82kg Southport Defender
  [COLOR="lime"]McDonnell, Edward (R)   0 19 30 Dec 1986 192cm 87kg Western Magpies Utility[/COLOR]
  Raymond, Phillip        0 19 24 Jun 1987 186cm 69kg Glenelg Forward
  [COLOR="Lime"]Corr, Cathal (R)        0 18 01 Nov 1987 182cm 82kg Northern Knights Utility[/COLOR]
  Sweeney, Justin         0 18 25 Dec 1987 186cm 87kg Tyabb Forward
 
After GT was sacked, the club was restructured and more resources were allocated toward recruiting.

The changes to the list 2006/7

Deletions

Troy Schwarze (delisted)
Cain Ackland (delisted)
Matthew Ferguson (delisted)
Mark McGough (delisted)
Allan Murray (delisted)
Justin Peckett (retired)
Stephen Powell (retired)

Rookie Deletions

Cathal Corr (delisted)
Ed McDonnell (delisted)
Dylan Pfitzner (delisted)

Additions

Michael Gardiner
Shane Birss
David Armitage
Brad Howard
Jarryd Allen
Matthew Ferguson
Matthew Clarke

Rookie Additions

Clinton Jones
Luke Van Rheenen
Robbert Eddy
James Wall
Jarryn Geary
Jaydn Attard

Thats 9 players out and 12 players in (utilising our rookie spots more appropriately)* Ignoring Matthew Ferguson
 
The St Kilda 2007 list in age order after the draft:

This is the list that Ross Lyon inherited - he had some input on recruiting immediately after his appointment but most of the groundwork had already been done and the recruiters were able to follow up on their work all season.

Code:
   Name              Games Age Birth Date Height Weight Origin          Position  
  Harvey, Robert (V+)   340 35 21 Aug 1971 181cm  84kg Seaford             Midfield  
  Thompson, Andrew (V+) 211 34 21 Oct 1972 180cm  81kg Old Melburnians     Midfield  
  Clarke, Matthew       248 33 18 Sep 1973 200cm 100kg West Gambier        Ruck 
  Gehrig, Fraser        235 31 03 Mar 1976 195cm 104kg Murray Bushrangers  Forward  
  Hudghton, Max         194 30 02 Sep 1976 191cm  92kg Northern Knights    Defender  
  Hamill, Aaron         190 29 20 Aug 1977 184cm  94kg Tuggeranong         Forward  
  Voss, Brett           159 29 22 Feb 1978 181cm  84kg Morningside         Defender   
  Gardiner, Michael     129 27 05 Jul 1979 199cm  99kg Claremont           Ruck 
  Hayes, Lenny          149 27 14 Jan 1980 186cm  85kg Pennant Hills       Midfield  
  Milne, Stephen        119 27 08 Mar 1980 176cm  80kg Dandenong Stingrays Forward  
  Baker, Steven         134 26 22 May 1980 179cm  83kg Geelong Falcons     Midfield  
  Michael Rix            11 26 08 Jan 1981 200cm 100kg Coburg              Ruck
  Blake, Jason           91 25 15 Mar 1981 189cm  87kg Beaumaris           Utility  
  Fiora, Aaron          108 25 19 Apr 1981 186cm  80kg Port Adelaide       Winger/Flanker  
  Fisher, Sam            51 24 10 Jul 1982 191cm  88kg West Adelaide       Defender  
  Koschitzke, Justin     78 24 20 Sep 1982 197cm  96kg Murray Bushrangers  Ruck KPP  
  Riewoldt, Nick        114 24 17 Oct 1982 193cm  95kg Southport           Forward    
  Birss, Shane           51 23 11 Mar 1983 183cm  80kg Sale                Midfield 
  Clarke, Xavier         79 23 28 Sep 1983 181cm  80kg St Marys            Forward  
  Montagna, Leigh        52 23 02 Nov 1983 178cm  76kg Northern Knights    Midfield  
  Brooks, Barry           8 23 24 Dec 1983 198cm  95kg Grassy              Ruck  
  Jones, Clinton (R)      0 23 02 Feb 1984 183cm   83kg South Fremantle    Midfield
  Dal Santo, Nick        98 23 22 Feb 1984 185cm  83kg Bendigo Pioneers    Midfield  
  Fisher, Leigh          25 22 19 Apr 1984 184cm  90kg Mentone Grammar     Midfield  
  Gram, Jason            32 22 27 Apr 1984 186cm  84kg Gippsland Power     Defender  
  Ball, Luke             86 22 25 May 1984 183cm  84kg Sandringham Dragons Midfield  
  Maguire, Matthew       85 22 30 May 1984 190cm  96kg Geelong Falcons     Defender  
  Ferguson, Matthew       8 22 01 Oct 1984 187cm  87kg Heyfield            Utility  
  Goddard, Brendon       83 21 20 May 1985 189cm  96kg Traralgon           Utility 
  [COLOR="Red"]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/COLOR]
  Watts, Fergus           6 21 21 Sep 1985 195cm  95kg Sandringham Dragons Forward
  Clarke, Raphael        22 21 24 Sep 1985 188cm  82kg St Mary's           Defender  
  Attard, Jayden (R)      5 21 27 Feb 1986 187cm  83kg Dandenong Stingrays Defender 
  McQualter, Andrew      17 20 09 Jun 1986 179cm  79kg Gippsland Power     Midfield  
  Gwilt, James            5 20 11 Aug 1986 188cm  88kg Noble Park          Utility  
  Gilbert, Sam            2 20 19 Aug 1986 194cm  82kg Southport           Defender
  Wall, James (R)         0 20 05 Jan 1987 198cm  80kg Calder Cannons      Defender 
  Raymond, Phillip        0 19 24 Jun 1987 186cm  69kg Glenelg             Forward
  Howard, Brad            0 19 21 Dec 1987 180.5cm 72kg Redlands           Midfielder    
  Sweeney, Justin         0 19 25 Dec 1987 186cm   87kg Tyabb              Forward
  Eddy, Robert (R)        0 19 07 Jan 1988 181.7cm 85kg Gippsland Power    Midfield
  Allen, Jarryd           0 19 14 Jan 1988 193.2cm 88kg Calder Cannons     Forward
  Van Rheenan, Luke (R)   0 19 07 Mar 1988 201cm   90kg Scoresby           Ruck
  Armitage, David         0 18 16 Jun 1988 183.5cm 80kg Morningside        Midfielder
  Geary, Jarryn (R)       0 18 23 Jun 1988 182.1cm 77kg Bendigo Pioneers   Midfield
 

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Ross Lyon has had 12 months to look at his players and the team structure. The recruiters attempted to address the deficiencies he percieved with trades while still focusing on youth especially via the rookie draft.

Players Removed from List 2007/8:

Code:
   Name              Games Age Birth Date Height Weight Origin          Position  
  Thompson, Andrew (V+) 221 34 21 Oct 1972 180cm  81kg Old Melburnians     Midfield
  Clarke, Matthew       258 34 18 Sep 1973 200cm 100kg West Gambier        Ruck
  Gehrig, Fraser        255 31 03 Mar 1976 195cm 104kg Murray Bushrangers  Forward  
  Hamill, Aaron         190 30 20 Aug 1977 184cm  94kg Tuggeranong         Forward
  Voss, Brett           170 29 22 Feb 1978 181cm  84kg Morningside         Defender
  Brooks, Barry          10 23 24 Dec 1983 198cm  95kg Grassy              Ruck
  Watts, Fergus           6 22 21 Sep 1985 195cm  95kg Sandringham Dragons Forward
  McQualter, Andrew      23 21 09 Jun 1986 179cm  79kg Gippsland Power     Midfield  
  Wall, James (R)         0 20 05 Jan 1987 198cm  80kg Calder Cannons      Defender
  Raymond, Phillip        0 20 24 Jun 1987 186cm  69kg Glenelg             Forward
  Sweeney, Justin         1 19 25 Dec 1987 186cm  87kg Tyabb               Forward

Players Added to Main List:
Code:
   Name              Games Age Birth Date Height Weight Origin          Position  
  Gehrig, Fraser        255 31 03 Mar 1976 195cm 104kg Murray Bushrangers  Forward  
  King, Steven          193 28 11 Nov 1978 201cm 105kg Shepparton HS       Ruck
  Gardiner, Charlie      51 24 01 Mar 1983 190cm  91kg Geelong Grammar     Forward
  Dempster, Sean         51 23 20 Jan 1984 192cm  87kg Gippsland U18       Defender
  Schneider, Adam        98 23 12 May 1984 179cm  79kg Osbourne            Forward
  [COLOR="Red"]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/COLOR]
  McEvoy, Ben             0 18 11 Jul 1989 200.2cm 94.6kg Murray Bushrangers Ruck
  Connors, Eljay          0 17 01 Jan 1990 181.0cm 65.0kg Bendigo Pioneers Midfield
  Steven, Jack            0 17 28 Mar 1990 180.0cm 76.4kg Geelong Falcons  Midfield

Rookies Promoted to Main List:
Code:
   Name              Games Age Birth Date Height Weight Origin          Position  
  Jones, Clinton          6 23 02 Feb 1984 183cm  83kg South Fremantle     Midfield
  [COLOR="Red"]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/COLOR]
  Geary, Jarryn           0 19 23 Jun 1988 182.1cm 77kg Bendigo Pioneers   Midfield

Retained Rookies:
Code:
   Name              Games Age Birth Date Height Weight Origin          Position 
  Attard, Jayden (R)     25 21 27 Feb 1986 187cm  83kg Dandenong Stingrays Defender 
  Eddy, Robert (R)        0 19 07 Jan 1988 181.7cm 85kg Gippsland Power    Midfield
  Van Rheenan, Luke (R)   0 19 07 Mar 1988 201cm   90kg Scoresby           Ruck

Players Added to Rookie List:
Code:
   Name              Games Age Birth Date Height Weight Origin          Position 
  McQualter, Andrew (R)  23 21 09 Jun 1986 179.0cm 79.0kg Gippsland Power  Midfield  
  Miles, Luke (R)         0 21 30 Oct 1986 185.8cm 78.8kg Swan Districts   Defence
  Chivers, Glenn (R)      0 18 09 Apr 1989 188.4cm 87.5kg Oakleigh Chargers Defence
  Haretuku, Khan (R)      0 18 19 Oct 1989 198.0cm 96.0kg NSW Scholarship

Thats 9 players out and 10 players in (ignoring Gehrig and McQualter)
 
2008 List in age order:
Code:
   Name              Games Age Birth Date Height Weight Origin          Position  
  Harvey, Robert (V+)   359 36 21 Aug 1971 181cm  84kg Seaford             Midfield  
  Gehrig, Fraser        255 31 03 Mar 1976 195cm 104kg Murray Bushrangers  Forward  
  Hudghton, Max (V+)    204 31 02 Sep 1976 191cm  92kg Northern Knights    Defence 
  King, Steven          193 28 11 Nov 1978 201cm 105kg Shepparton HS       Ruck
  Gardiner, Michael     129 28 05 Jul 1979 199cm  99kg Claremont           Ruck 
  Hayes, Lenny          168 27 14 Jan 1980 186cm  85kg Pennant Hills       Midfield  
  Milne, Stephen        141 27 08 Mar 1980 176cm  80kg Dandenong Stingrays Forward  
  Baker, Steven         152 26 22 May 1980 179cm  83kg Geelong Falcons     Midfield  
  Michael Rix            28 26 08 Jan 1981 200cm 100kg Coburg              Ruck
  Blake, Jason          113 26 15 Mar 1981 189cm  87kg Beaumaris           Utility  
  Fiora, Aaron          130 26 19 Apr 1981 186cm  80kg Port Adelaide       Wing/Flank  
  Fisher, Sam            71 25 10 Jul 1982 191cm  88kg West Adelaide       Defender  
  Koschitzke, Justin     97 25 20 Sep 1982 197cm  96kg Murray Bushrangers  Ruck KPP  
  Riewoldt, Nick        134 25 17 Oct 1982 193cm  95kg Southport           Forward    
  Gardiner, Charlie      51 24 01 Mar 1983 190cm  91kg Geelong Grammar     Forward
  Birss, Shane           63 24 11 Mar 1983 183cm  80kg Sale                Midfield 
  Clarke, Xavier         97 24 28 Sep 1983 181cm  80kg St Marys            Forward  
  Montagna, Leigh        73 23 02 Nov 1983 178cm  76kg Northern Knights    Midfield  
  Dempster, Sean         51 23 20 Jan 1984 192cm  87kg Gippsland U18       Key Defence
  Jones, Clinton          6 23 02 Feb 1984 183cm  83kg South Fremantle     Midfield
  Dal Santo, Nick       120 23 22 Feb 1984 185cm  83kg Bendigo Pioneers    Midfield  
  Fisher, Leigh          47 23 19 Apr 1984 184cm  90kg Mentone Grammar     Midfield  
  Gram, Jason            52 23 27 Apr 1984 186cm  84kg Gippsland Power     Defence  
  Schneider, Adam        98 23 12 May 1984 179cm  79kg Osbourne            Forward
  Ball, Luke            104 23 25 May 1984 183cm  84kg Sandringham Dragons Midfield  
  Maguire, Matthew       95 23 30 May 1984 190cm  96kg Geelong Falcons     Defence  
  Ferguson, Matthew      10 23 01 Oct 1984 187cm  87kg Heyfield            Utility  
  Goddard, Brendon       90 22 20 May 1985 189cm  96kg Traralgon           Utility 
  Clarke, Raphael        30 22 24 Sep 1985 188cm  82kg St Mary's           Defence  
  Attard, Jayden (R)     25 21 27 Feb 1986 187cm  83kg Dandenong Stingrays Defence 
  McQualter, Andrew (R)  23 21 09 Jun 1986 179cm  79kg Gippsland Power     Midfield  
  Gwilt, James           13 21 11 Aug 1986 188cm  88kg Noble Park          Utility  
  Gilbert, Sam           20 21 19 Aug 1986 194cm  82kg Southport           Defence
  [COLOR="Red"]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/COLOR]
  Miles, Luke (R)         0 21 30 Oct 1986 185.8cm 78.8kg Swan Districts     Defence
  Howard, Brad            2 19 21 Dec 1987 180.5cm 72.0kg Redlands           Midfield    
  Eddy, Robert (R)        0 19 07 Jan 1988 181.7cm 85.0kg Gippsland Power    Midfield
  Allen, Jarryd           0 19 14 Jan 1988 193.2cm 88.0kg Calder Cannons     Forward
  Van Rheenan, Luke (R)   0 19 07 Mar 1988 201.0cm 90.0kg Scoresby           Ruck
  Armitage, David         3 19 16 Jun 1988 183.5cm 80.0kg Morningside        Midfield
  Geary, Jarryn           0 19 23 Jun 1988 182.1cm 77.0kg Bendigo Pioneers   Midfield
  Chivers, Glenn (R)      0 18 09 Apr 1989 188.4cm 87.5kg Oakleigh Chargers  Defence
  McEvoy, Ben             0 18 11 Jul 1989 200.2cm 94.6kg Murray Bushrangers Ruck
  Haretuku, Khan (R)      0 18 19 Oct 1989 198.0cm 96.0kg NSW Scholarship  
  Connors, Eljay          0 17 01 Jan 1990 181.0cm 65.0kg Bendigo Pioneers   Midfield
  Steven, Jack            0 17 28 Mar 1990 180.0cm 76.4kg Geelong Falcons    Midfield
 
Players Removed from List 2008/9:

Code:
  Harvey, Robert (V+)   383 37 21 Aug 1971 181cm  84kg Seaford             Midfield  
  Gehrig, Fraser        260 32 03 Mar 1976 195cm 104kg Murray Bushrangers  Forward  
  Michael Rix            29 27 08 Jan 1981 200cm 100kg Coburg              Ruck
  Fiora, Aaron          140 27 19 Apr 1981 186cm  80kg Port Adelaide       Wing/Flank  
  Gardiner, Charlie      63 25 01 Mar 1983 190cm  91kg Geelong Grammar     Forward
  Birss, Shane           71 25 11 Mar 1983 183cm  80kg Sale                Midfield 
  Ferguson, Matthew      12 24 01 Oct 1984 187cm  87kg Heyfield            Utility  
  Attard, Jayden (R)     25 22 27 Feb 1986 187cm  83kg Dandenong Stingrays Defence 
  Howard, Brad            2 20 21 Dec 1987 180.5cm 72.0kg Redlands           Midfield    
  Van Rheenan, Luke (R)   0 20 07 Mar 1988 201.0cm 90.0kg Scoresby           Ruck
  Chivers, Glenn (R)      0 19 09 Apr 1989 188.4cm 87.5kg Oakleigh Chargers  Defence

Players Added to Main List:
Code:
   Name              Games Age Birth Date Height Weight Origin          Position  
  Ray, Farren            75 22 29 Mar 1986 187cm  84kg Peel Thunder        Midfield 
  Begley, Colm           29 22 31 Aug 1986 188cm  83kg Ireland/Bris Lions  Defender 
  [COLOR="Red"]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/COLOR]
  Heyne, Nicholas         0 18 22 Jul 1990 188.2cm 79.1kg Orbost             Forward
  Smith, Alistair         0 18 08 Aug 1990 183.5cm 79.0kg Perth              Midfield
  Cahill, Paul            0 18 18 Aug 1990 193.1cm 80.7kg Sturt              Forward
  Lynch, Tom              0 18 15 Sep 1990 191.7cm 85.2kg Sandringham        Forward
  Stanley, Rhys           0 18 01 Dec 1990 200.4cm 88.5kg West Adelaide      Ruck

Rookies Promoted to Main List:
Code:
   Name              Games Age Birth Date Height Weight Origin          Position  
  McQualter, Andrew      35 22 09 Jun 1986 179cm  79kg Gippsland Power     Midfield  
 [COLOR="Red"]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/COLOR]
  Eddy, Robert           13 20 07 Jan 1988 181.7cm 85.0kg Gippsland Power    Midfield

Retained Rookies:
Code:
   Name              Games Age Birth Date Height Weight Origin          Position  
  Miles, Luke (R)         0 22 30 Oct 1986 185.8cm 78.8kg Swan Districts     Defence
  Haretuku, Khan (R)      0 19 19 Oct 1989 198.0cm 98.0kg NSW Scholarship

Players Added to Rookie List:
Code:
   Name              Games Age Birth Date Height Weight Origin          Position  
  Dawson, Zac (R)        14 22 22 Feb 1986 195cm  95kg Doutta Stars        Defence
  Howard, Brad (R)        2 20 21 Dec 1987 182.0cm 80.0kg Redlands           Midfield    
  Gaertner, Steven (R)    0 18 02 Jan 1990 199.0cm 87.0kg Dandenong Stingrays Defence
  McGarry,  Sam (R)       0 18 21 Apr 1990 186.0cm 77.0kg Sandringham Dragons Midfield
  Tungatulum, Ross (R)    0 18 05 Jun 1990 ???.?cm ??.?kg St Mary’s          Forward
  Simpkin, Tom (R)        0 18 07 Aug 1990 191.0cm 83.0kg Geelong Falcons    Defence

Thats 10 players out and 12 players in (ignoring Brad Howard).
 
2009 List in age order:
Code:
   Name              Games Age Birth Date Height Weight Origin          Position  
  Hudghton, Max (V+)    227 32 02 Sep 1976 191cm  92kg Northern Knights    Defence 
  King, Steven          215 30 11 Nov 1978 202cm 105kg Shepparton HS       Ruck
  Gardiner, Michael     138 29 05 Jul 1979 199cm  99kg Claremont           Ruck 
  Hayes, Lenny          192 28 14 Jan 1980 186cm  85kg Pennant Hills       Midfield  
  Milne, Stephen        165 28 08 Mar 1980 176cm  80kg Dandenong Stingrays Forward  
  Baker, Steven         154 28 22 May 1980 179cm  83kg Geelong Falcons     Midfield  
  Blake, Jason          136 27 15 Mar 1981 189cm  87kg Beaumaris           Utility  
  Fisher, Sam            96 26 10 Jul 1982 192cm  88kg West Adelaide       Defender  
  Koschitzke, Justin    119 26 20 Sep 1982 197cm  96kg Murray Bushrangers  Ruck KPP  
  Riewoldt, Nick        158 26 17 Oct 1982 193cm  92kg Southport           Forward    
  Montagna, Leigh        98 25 11 Feb 1983 178cm  76kg Northern Knights    Midfield  
  Clarke, Xavier        105 25 28 Sep 1983 181cm  80kg St Marys            Forward  
  Dempster, Sean         73 24 20 Jan 1984 191cm  87kg Gippsland U18       Defence
  Jones, Clinton         26 24 02 Feb 1984 183cm  83kg South Fremantle     Midfield
  Dal Santo, Nick       144 24 22 Feb 1984 185cm  83kg Bendigo Pioneers    Midfield  
  Fisher, Leigh          56 24 19 Apr 1984 184cm  86kg Mentone Grammar     Midfield  
  Gram, Jason            77 24 27 Apr 1984 186cm  84kg Gippsland Power     Defence  
  Schneider, Adam       117 24 12 May 1984 179cm  79kg Osbourne            Forward
  Ball, Luke            122 24 25 May 1984 183cm  84kg Sandringham Dragons Midfield  
  Maguire, Matthew       99 24 30 May 1984 190cm  96kg Geelong Falcons     Defence  
  Goddard, Brendon      113 23 20 May 1985 191cm  96kg Traralgon           Utility 
  Clarke, Raphael        41 23 24 Sep 1985 188cm  82kg St Mary's           Defence  
  Dawson, Zac (R)        14 22 22 Feb 1986 195cm  95kg Doutta Stars        Defence
  Ray, Farren            75 22 29 Mar 1986 187cm  84kg Peel Thunder        Midfield 
  McQualter, Andrew      35 22 09 Jun 1986 179cm  79kg Gippsland Power     Midfield  
  Gwilt, James           26 22 11 Aug 1986 188cm  88kg Noble Park          Utility  
  Gilbert, Sam           39 22 19 Aug 1986 194cm  82kg Southport           Defence
  Begley, Colm           29 22 31 Aug 1986 188cm  83kg Ireland/Bris Lions  Defender 
  [COLOR="Red"]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/COLOR]
  Miles, Luke (R)         0 22 30 Oct 1986 185.8cm 78.8kg Swan Districts     Defence
  Howard, Brad (R)        2 20 21 Dec 1987 182.0cm 80.0kg Redlands           Midfield    
  Eddy, Robert           13 20 07 Jan 1988 181.7cm 85.0kg Gippsland Power    Midfield
  Allen, Jarryd           4 20 14 Jan 1988 193.2cm 88.0kg Calder Cannons     Forward
  Armitage, David        16 20 16 Jun 1988 183.5cm 80.0kg Morningside        Midfield
  Geary, Jarryn          10 20 23 Jun 1988 182.1cm 77.0kg Bendigo Pioneers   Midfield
  McEvoy, Ben             1 19 11 Jul 1989 200.2cm 94.6kg Murray Bushrangers Ruck
  Haretuku, Khan (R)      0 19 19 Oct 1989 198.0cm 98.0kg NSW Scholarship  
  Connors, Eljay          0 18 01 Jan 1990 181.0cm 65.0kg Bendigo Pioneers   Midfield
  Gaertner, Steven (R)    0 18 02 Jan 1990 199.0cm 87.0kg Dandenong Stingrays Defence
  Steven, Jack            0 18 28 Mar 1990 180.0cm 76.4kg Geelong Falcons    Midfield  
  McGarry,  Sam (R)       0 18 21 Apr 1990 186.0cm 77.0kg Sandringham Dragons Midfield
  McGrath, Blake (R)      0 18 24 Apr 1990 208.0cm 85.0kg Pennant Hill       Ruck
  Tungatulum, Ross (R)    0 18 05 Jun 1990 ???.?cm ??.?kg St Mary’s          Forward
  Heyne, Nicholas         0 18 22 Jul 1990 188.2cm 79.1kg Orbost             Forward
  Simpkin, Tom (R)        0 18 07 Aug 1990 191.0cm 83.0kg Geelong Falcons    Defence
  Smith, Alistair         0 18 08 Aug 1990 183.5cm 79.0kg Perth              Midfield
  Cahill, Paul            0 18 18 Aug 1990 193.1cm 80.7kg Sturt              Forward
  Lynch, Tom              0 18 15 Sep 1990 191.7cm 85.2kg Sandringham        Forward
  Stanley, Rhys           0 18 01 Dec 1990 200.4cm 88.5kg West Adelaide      Ruck

We now have 12 players born in 1990, 33 players born in 1980's and 3 players born in 1970's

We have turned over our list ferociously since Ross Lyon arrived (9 + 9 + 10 = 28 players delisted and 12 + 10 + 12 = 34 new players recruited !!!)

This level of player turnover is akin to a major rebuild, except that we have done this almost sneakily, building quite a stash of youthful (and largely untried) talent that will mature in the VFL. Hopefully many will force their way into the best 22. Meanwhile the more mature players on our list are approaching the optimum age and experience level that historically fits the premiership formula.

Each season we seem to start off highly rated because of the way we finished the previous season. We don't go as well as expected. Then it seems as if we had been overrated, but then we hit our straps and motor home. Could this be due, in part, to our rather large list turnover? Could it be that we have new players filling existing roles and new roles for existing players that take some time to perfect? New heads to learn the game plan and gain the confidence of the existing playing group. Many of the mature players recruited have done well, a few have not.

This year we start with Sean Dempster and Jarryd Allen both looking at missing half the season, but we gain some real greats of the club in Matty Maguire, Steven Baker and Xavier Clarke back from injury and ready to contribute. Leigh Fisher has trimmed down and wants a crack at a midfield position - and he's burning down the tracks to impress in order to get his chance. New mature recruits Colm Begley and Farren Ray are expected to claim spots on the half back flank. Michael Gardiner should now be able to run out the entire season after struggling with injury in the second half of last season. (...and we'll have Macca chomping at the bit to get a run in the ruck should someone not be up to scratch).

The red line delineates (in my mind) the main list from the hopefuls. You can add Zac Dawson to the hopefuls, and you could put a case forward for Eddy, Armitage and Geary to go above the line. I also have high hopes that Ben McEvoy and Jack Steven both get games. I'd also like to see Eljay debut on a wing and see what potential he has. Heyne and Lynch might also get a game at some stage during the season and it will be nice to see what they can bring to the table too.

I am so envious of those of you who can go to the Sandringham matches and see our up and coming stars in action. What a season 2009 is going to be.
 
Excellent summary there Kildonian. I'm amazed by that stat about 34 new players coming in - astounding! The irony of people like NH saying that "We must stop fooling ourselves, a full rebuild is needed", is that, it seems pretty darn close to a full rebuild to me. And the list is just pretty darn excellent.

It especially warms my heart to think that we've been able to get this kind of youth and strength in our side, despite generally finishing well for the last five years, while Carlton has had to drown in squalor to get a list that - though flushed with experienced youth - is (to put it kindly) no better.
 
I still have concerns abotu Eljay, just with the injuries he's already had could we really blood a new Kosi while Kosi is till around? Screams calamity if the two play the match where it's almost guaranteed one of the two is then going to be out for a fair long time.

I knew out turnover was relatively large, I just never sat down and did the numbers, but even I'm surprised at the length gone to get the list together, looks to be a consistent turn over of individuals who simply did not fit the bill for individuals who do or could, a state of flux does generally keep the group honest.
 
Kildonan,

I come here in peace. I was looking at your Evolution of the Saints list and would like to point something out.

The reason what St Kilda have done isn't called a re-build is because it isn't a re-build. It is more just a turnover of players.

If you look at all your additions of all players in those lists, not one addition would be in your top dozen players. The only possible would be Armitage as a future prospect.

There is no quality there at all...not including the untried kids like Lynch of course.

In order to re-build a club you must inject quality. I grant that it is difficult to do when you finish 3-9 for five or six years running. But the additions on those lists are almost all deadwood, capable of just squeezing into an AFL side, at best.
 
Some very simplistic arguments there Terry

If you look at all your additions of all players in those lists, not one addition would be in your top dozen players.
If you're talking current, King is most certainly a top dozen player. Schneider and Dempster were too patchy, but could still move into the top dozen.

The only possible would be Armitage as a future prospect.

There is no quality there at all...not including the untried kids like Lynch of course.
How do you define 'quality'? Draft position? Potential? Do you think you've seen enough of our recruits to make that call?

Each poster would probably pick a different player to defend against your blanket statement. Eddy, Jones, Geary, Steven, Miles. Steven is one that I have very high hopes for.

In order to re-build a club you must inject quality. I grant that it is difficult to do when you finish 3-9 for five or six years running. But the additions on those lists are almost all deadwood, capable of just squeezing into an AFL side, at best.
That's as insulting as it is untrue. All clubs take in some 'deadwood' as you put it but a look at the info Kildonan provided would show that our tolerance for it has dropped dramatically.

Watts, Brooks, Murray and all Thomas's rookies were moved out in the first year. C. Gardiner, Birss and Ferguson were all given chances and moved on in short order. M. Gardiner probably only survives to keep providing tutelage to our young ruck brigade (which in a few years will be one of the best in the competition).

Ray, Begley and Dawson may soon join them. But they're a calculated risk.

If nothing else the law of averages means that there is some 'quality' in amongst the kids we've recruited. Personally my money's on Heyne, Steven and Blake 'Walking Goalpost' McGrath.
 
Goodie,

Nothing was meant to be insulting. I save that crap for the fun on Bay 13.

I agree that you have moved on a lot of deadwood from the list. But i don't think anyone could argue that there is any top 12 players in your additions(once again, not counting the untried).

You mention King,Schneider and Dempster. None of them are in your top dozen players. All were moved on from their previous club. Sometime you get a gem like Gram, but these 3 players are limited.

As for the other players mentioned, i don't think you could say any are other than top up players(16-22'ers in your team).

I think an honest look at the lists, well compiled by Kildonan, would indicate a turnover of mediocre players and not a list re-build.
 
Terry - I did say that the "level of player turnover is akin to a major rebuild" - I wasn't intimating that it actually was a rebuild. I simply was impressed by the sheer numbers turned over (slightly inflated though they are by a few we recruited then later sacked).

The players we have recruited to the senior list as senior (experienced) players have either made it as first 22 players or they have been sacked. These players have not been recruited to be a "top 12 player" they were recruited to fill a percieved deficiency in our team. King, Schneider and Dempster have fulfilled our expectations in those terms and Gardiner will likely do so this year. That was our expectation (or hope). Farren Ray and Colm Begley join Michael Gardiner as players with an expectation of filling a role for the club in this next year (and hopefully many more).

St Kilda as a club have been achieving fairly good results for half a decade - so you should understand that our deficiencies are not as major as teams that have had poor results recently.

The other players (below the red line) are unknown quantities as yet, but there are a number of real beauties in there. There are 20 players below that line and Zac making it 21. There are three first round draft recruits amongst those kids and several other highly rated kids all developing while our main list has been bolstered by the mature recruits.

My belief is that the bulk of our mature list is approaching their peak playing age and this makes it hard for the kids to break into the squad. Those that do are likely to be better than the player they displace (hence improve the squad in the process).

You may think this is true but it applies to all AFL clubs not only the Saints. I think it especially applies to the Saints because of the age gap between the mature playing group and the kids coming through. Most other clubs have a more even spread of players.

This age disparity is somewhat similar to what the Lions had when they were in their threepeat years. The mature playing group remained relatively stable and their kids were unable to break into the side. They also topped up with a few players to fill perceived deficiencies in their squad, players like Martin Pike and Blake Caracella (off the top of my head) filled roles that allowed them to win.
 

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Fair enough Kildonan. Regarding your first paragraph above, maybe i misinterpreted that you were saying it was a re-build in the OP.

IMO though, and i would suggest a lot of people from the other 15 clubs, the Saints list probably has the biggest drop off between its top Dozen players and the rest of the list(peripheral players and quality young kids ).

Anyway, after reading the OP you went to the trouble to do , i just thought i'd add a (probably predictable) but honest outside view.
 
Terry,

Sod off back to your own board. Don't put dribble like "I come in peace". I've seen your scumbag posts regarding OUR club. We don't need your "honest outside viewpoint" that we have 3-4 superstars, a few good players and the rest are mediocre.

However being a blue bagger with the delusional view that your club is a premiership contender in 2009 because everyone says so (Fremantle anyone?) consider this: Carlton has one superstar (Judd), one traditional full forward (fev) and one other fairly decent player (stevens). And then it drops off. Dramatically.

I find it hypocritical that a supporter of a club with The Squibbinator as the man of the future comes onto this board telling us we're recycling rather than rebuilding.
 
IMO though the Saints list probably has the biggest drop off between its top Dozen players and the rest of the list(peripheral players and quality young kids ).

Anyway, after reading the OP you went to the trouble to do , i just thought i'd add a (probably predictable) but honest outside view.

The Saints have a philosophy where the team is most important, not the individual. What you may be seeing as a player whose stats don't include him in the top twelve players are those players who are willing to sacrifice their flashiness for the team effort. We have a number of players who are underestimated by opposition club supporters, but I wouldn't mind betting that these players are not underestimated by opposition players or their coaches.

We are happy with our playing personnel, as well we should be they are amongst the best in the AFL and have been for years.

I am confident that our 19th, 20th, 21st and 22nd players selected would easily find their way into the Carlton squad, and before many of your peripheral players.

We are an honest club who use legitimate means to achieve our goals. We can not and will not "buy" a premiership. Instead we have chosen the "hard work" path, developing our own players.

This philosophy is new to Carlton, and you are only beginning to adopt this approach because the rest of the clubs insisted you stopped cheating. Even still, accepting the Pratt money stolen from honest Australians shows that Carlton are the recidivist club. Be proud of your bought players and your bought premierships, but we will be even prouder of our honest achievements.
 
Clearly there is a rebuild going on.

We have not invested in highly rated young ruckmen and pacy midfielders in years gone by, as shown by Mini (pick 17), Ackland (33 after being delisted), McGough (49), Watts (trade for pick 17), Rix (49), and Armo (9).

McEvoy's recruitment at pick 9 in 2007 showed the difference in the philosophy - can't imagine GT going for a ruckman with the first round pick.

We traded the second round for guys with some toe (Scneids and Dempster), and pick 3 went on pace too (Jack Steven who was an "under-age" player). Using the fifth pick we again went with pace via Connors who had the punctured lung (which we knew about) then the shoulder injury which is now right.

2008 saw a similar philosophy with Stanley picked as a young ruckman with talent, and pace injected via Ray, Heyne and Smith (2nd, 3rd and 4th round picks).

If you think otherwise I reckon you're looking through shit-coloured glasses. This terrible condition can unfortunately afflict supporters of opposition clubs. It can be contagious and people who have the disease should be quarantined (at least from the Saints board).
 
Interesting to note that Sammy Fisher pointed out in his Official Saints website interview that we now have the largest list of any club in the comp, and that this has led to more competition for spots.

Regarding Tel Wallet's point, I recognise that a lot of the players he's mentioning are not in our Top-12, but last time I checked, an AFL team was made up of 22 players. Our problem for the last 2 or 3 years has not been lack of quality at the top (Hayes, Ball, Dal, Milne, Roo, etc), it has been a MAJOR lack of quality in our 2nd and 3rd tier. We have all known weeks we're we felt 2-6 spots of ours were being made up of people we had to "settle for" - Fiora, Birss, etc. Far too often, we have had players who were "making up the numbers".

Lyon has almost eradicated this. The 2nd Tier players are no longer picked based upon them being the least worst of the ordinaries. I think they're going to be picked based upon being the players most hungry and talented for their positions - as it darn well should be.

Terry may well like to point out the fact that there is still a problem with this - if all your recruits and younguns are fillers for 2nd tier spots NOW, where are your 1st tier players going to come from when our current 1st tiers get old and retire? Again, this is an excellent point.

But it is incredibly hard for any of us to look into a crystal ball, here. It is especially hard to do it for clubs that are not our own (I flippantly did that for Carlton in my previous post on this thread, and that was wrong, so I apologise, Terry). My point is, we don't know who will start out as a 2nd tier and eventually mature into being a 1st tier. Given his draft position, few would have picked Sam Fisher, for example, to become a 1st tier player. But he has. Many would have picked Fergus Watts to be a 1st tier, but injury put a stop to that. None of us know.

What I DO know, is that we have (with the exception of King and Maxy) a rather young list, and that we have the luxury of having potentially 4 years to see our 2nd tier players become 1st tier. Lynch doesn't need to be a superstar now - if he is, that's a bonus, but really, he can serve a long apprenticeship, knowing that he's essentially a potential replacement for Kosi or Roo way, way down the line. This is one of the reasons behind Lyon's patient attitude regarding young'uns serving a 4 year apprenticeship.

This contrasts with (at the risk of being rather ungracious) with Carlton's perhaps overuse of Kreuser last year - despite him being a new recruit (albeit a fabulous one), he was often forced to take the role and responsibility of lead ruck in an AFL team. Now, that could work out fine, but it could also (and more likely, I would suggest) lead to burnout or serious injury in the long-term. Ben McEvoy, who is potentially just as exciting a ruck pickup from the 2007 draft, is being given time to mature in the Magoos, and I suspect will be all the better for it.
 
Persevering Saint - thanks for the reply. good read.

Kildonan - i expected better than your latest reply ,considering i took the bother to reply to a post you obviously put time into and wanted to discuss.

Krusden - exactly what i expected from you.

Persevering Saint, i am fully aware of the challenges ahead of my club and don't have rose coloured glasses about everyone in that club( i'm not the most favorite poster on the Carlton Board lol).
But regarding the Saints list i just think that in the 4 or 5 years ahead there is less scope for improvent than most other clubs. Just my opinion.

I just think during the Thomas years and Lyon's first year you were shuffling the deckchairs(kinda like us during the Pagan years) and it is gonna bite you on the backside soon.

I see hardly any of your top dozen or so players under 24 yo. Most clubs have a good spread of their best players as young players. (again, this doesn't include untried players. All clubs have these, most more highly rated than St Kilda)

PS: if you prefer to discuss this between yourselves i'm happy to leave but that's what i don't really enjoy about my teams board, it's like an echo chamber of unrealistic thought. All team boards are the same. A little different perspective improves all discussion.
 
Terry, what I think you've identified is a big hole we have in the ages between 21 and 22. of the players in that age bracket at our club, quite a few are either reruns (Ray, Begley, or Dawson), or 2nd or 3rd tier players (McQualter, Gwilt). but there's a few things to consider there.

Firstly, the draft many of these were taken in was the 2003 "Dud-draft". With the exception of Cooney obviously, it was a pretty lean, lean draft. You know this as much as anybody - Tex Walker isn't exactly setting the world on fire as a #2 draft pick, is he (with all due respect, I don't think I'm saying anything that a Carlton supporet would mind me saying there - he's a nice player, just not a normal #2 draft player).

Given that they were picked in that draft, is there any wonder there's a lean patch during those age brackets?!

I also admit that this reveals a major flaw in Grant Thomas' coaching approach - the failure to decently utilise the rookie option. Yet this is precisely something that I think Lyon is proving exemplary at, as evidenced by the 7 new rookie recruits this year.

We ARE going to have a gap between our 23yo (Beeg is 23, and is an excellent player obviously - as is Raph Clarke, who is starting to pleasantly surprise a few of us) and 20yo, but I think this is less of a big deal than you seem to be making it, with all due respect.
 
Oh, and btw, personally, I don't mind having the outside input, especially right now, as it at least promotes discussion - you're being much more polite than the troll "Get Thee to a Nunnery", yet even his attack on Milney has created a 4 page thread, which can only be good for this forum. I think we just find it hard to accept ANY criticism from a Carlton poster, because of the bad blood we've had with them over the years. I totally understand and respect this in our posters. Personally, my approach to that is to take the high ground - if you were to be a troll (and I'm not necessarily saying that you are), I think that only makes you look worse.
 
I see hardly any of your top dozen or so players under 24 yo. Most clubs have a good spread of their best players as young players. (again, this doesn't include untried players. All clubs have these, most more highly rated than St Kilda)

Well Tez we've discussed this on Bay 13 at great lengths. I disagree with some of your points in the above post though. Established clubs who have been in the finals regularly over the 5 past seasons don't always fill this criteria. There seems to be a great belief on BF that a 22 yr old is better than a 27 year old simply because he is 22. That is rubbish. Jason Blake was lucky to make contact via foot when he first started and now he is a very handy roleplayer which a few teams would love to have. It's no surprise that when teams are struggling as Carlton has been, youth is often given chances when normally they probably wouldn't get a game. Lyon is gradually starting to mould the list to his liking. It's hardly foresight when people say the Saints are going down for 4-5 years in a row and in year 6 it may happen. It's a bit like a broken record. A little like your Bay 13 offerings really.
 
Terry's view appears to be a reiteration of a general (public) opinion of the Saints originating during the Thomas era. It bears no relation to the current state of the list. As genuine as his post at first seemed, I don't believe anyone could truly believe the 12 player thing - not if they've done any real assessment of the state of our list.

I have no great love for the blues - and I am quite happy to reiterate a general (public) opinion of them.

When I set about trying to put together a "Saints best 22" team, I cant - I find that I have too many players and not enough spots.

I look at Carlton's list - and at first it is easy: Judd, Murphy, Scotland, Stevens, Gibbs, Carrazzo, Waite, Simpson, Cloke, Fevola, Walker, but then the list falls down - kids and junk. Maybe thats the way that other clubs' fans look at the Saints list. Maybe my intimacy with the skills and strengths of our players makes them more in my eyes, or maybe their list is junk and ours is not.
 
Kildonan, and any others

would you care to list your 12 best St Kilda players? a genuine list please...

Mine would be:

Hudgton 32
Hayes 29
Milne 29
Riewoldt 26
Fisher 26
Montagna 26
*X.Clarke 25
Dal santo 25
Gram 24
Ball 24
Maguire 24
Goddard 23

* like Walker for us. When does performance overtake potential though

Of the younger players:

R Clarke
Gilbert
Armitage

are handy but not potential Topliners

McEvoy you might say. Like Hampson for us. We hope they're alright but others laugh.

Where are the future topliners?

Goddard , Fisher , Riewoldt and Gram are top young players who will continue to improve for you.But it is arguable if we have already seen the best of others on your best 12 list.

Therefore, you must have genuine class pushing thru elsewhere. I don't see it.
 

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