Opinion The Fab 4 of the Big 3 Dynasty's: It's time for some serious analysis.

kid_a

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#51
You cant base who`s "fab 4" were the best based simply on the team results. Brisbanes mid group was imo the best of the ones mentioned, but Hawthorn had a better overall regular 22. Like I genuinely believe the Eagles during the mid part of the decade had the best midfield brigade of the 2000s, but the depth of talent wasnt there throughout the whole playing field.(seriously looking back at the 2006 flag we didnt have many "a-graders"the only true rolls royces we had were........Cousins, Kerr, Judd, Cox, Glass, Wirrpanda, other than the team was pretty much just above average)

The comparing of the fab 4s to each other using the whole teams results is the equivalent of comparing which city has the richest suburb, but using the average income stats of the entire city to do it.
 
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Tom14

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#52
As a Hawks fan, I'm getting pretty sick & tired of posters in the Oz football & historical analysis threads, shitting on my club & it's players by their omission.

So for that reason, here's an objective comparison between 4 Hawks with their Brisbane & Geelong counter-parts....For whom so many believe we don't rate against.

Also....I won't be including Healy's BS AA awards as any kind of an objective measure here, as the Hawks had a very similar record as the Cats over the same comparative eras (Cats: 2007-2011 to Hawks: 2011-2015) & yet half the AA nominations....Which is complete ********..

Hawthorn Fab 4: Mitchell, Hodge, Burgoyne & Lewis:

2011-2015: Played 126; Won 99, Lost 27....Finals Played 16. Won 12 Lost 4.
All 4 players have played 300 games plus.
All 4 players have 4 premierships each.
9 Best & fairest between them.
2 Norm Smiths
1 Brownlow....Sam Mitchell 227 Brownlow votes. 3rd most in history.....Hodge 145 Votes & 3 time premiership Captain.

Brisbane Fab 4: Black, Voss, Ackermanis & Lappin:

2000-2004: Played 125, Won 88.5, Lost 36.5....Finals Played 15. Won 12 Lost 3.
Only 2 players have played over 300 games plus.
All 4 players have 3 premierships each.
11 Best & Fairest between them.
1 Brownlow.....Simon Black 184 Brownlow votes. 9th most in history.....Voss 150 Votes & 3 time premiership Captain.
1 Norm Smith

Geelong Fab 4: Ablett, Selwood, Johnson & Bartel:

2007-2011: Played 125, Won 105, Lost 20....Finals Played 15. Won 12 Lost 3
Only 2 players have played over 300 games plus
3 Players have played in 3 Premierships each, with Ablett 2.
9 Best & Fairest between them.
3 Brownlow....Gary Ablett Jnr 239 Brownlow votes. 2nd most in history....Selwood with 189 votes.
2 Norm Smiths

Conclusion: The Lions don't actually stack-up against the Cats & Hawks H&A records, due to their poor 2000....The Cats average 1 more win than the Hawks over the 5 year comparison.....Which in no way accounts for 2x as many AA's.....However, all 3 clubs rate the same across the finals in their respective eras.....Quite incredible really

My list means that Mitchell, Black & Ablett come in first rank for those 3 sides.
All of Hodge, Voss & Selwood are very comparable as leaders.
Burgoyne, Johnston & Ackermanis are the 3 sides x-factors.
The 4th musketeer is Lewis, Bartel & Lappin.

Conclusion: The Hawks measure up equally as well as the other 2 juggernauts....Plus all 4 Hawks have an extra premiership in their kit bag to boot, which gives them the decisive edge here. While the Cats slightly superior H&A record - over the 5 year journey - gives them the edge in the comparative dynasty stakes.

It's clearly: Geelong, Hawthorn then Brisbane a distant 3rd for the club eras.

As for who has the best Fab 4?.....Hawthorn's all have 4 premierships each.....Sorry peeps, it's Hawthorn, Brisbane then the Cats there, with a 12 -9 -8. record.

Meaning that the Hawks in 2nd & First place come in first, followed by the Cats with a first & third, then the Lions with a second & third.

Oh well......It appears the Big Footy frat has it all arse-ways about.
Lol this is clearly just a dick measuring post but the original idea isn't the worst. I'll take your 4 categories and rank them purely as footballers.

1: Ablett, Black, Mitchell
2: Voss, Hodge, Selwood
3: Akermanis Burgoyne, Johnson
4: Bartel, Lappin, Lewis

Voss was a better player than all bar Ablett in his prime which was pre the broken leg in 98. Afterwards he was still great but not quite the same in the relevant period.

If I was ranking them as footballers it would go:

1. Ablett
2. Black
3. Voss
4. Mitchell
5. Akermanis
6. Hodge
7. Selwood
8. Burgoyne
9. Bartel
10. Johnson
11. Lappin
12. Lewis

Entirely subjective and I am of course biased here. But I'll take the Lions fab 4, then geelong and then Hawthorn. Weird choice of things to fight about though because if you want to compare overall teams I think it is very arguable, would agree Hawks forward line is the best and geelong backline is the best.
 
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Thread starter #53
Lol this is clearly just a dick measuring post but the original idea isn't the worst. I'll take your 4 categories and rank them purely as footballers.

1: Ablett, Black, Mitchell
2: Voss, Hodge, Selwood
3: Akermanis Burgoyne, Johnson
4: Bartel, Lappin, Lewis

Voss was a better player than all bar Ablett in his prime which was pre the broken leg in 98. Afterwards he was still great but not quite the same in the relevant period.

If I was ranking them as footballers it would go:

1. Ablett
2. Black
3. Voss
4. Mitchell
5. Akermanis
6. Hodge
7. Selwood
8. Burgoyne
9. Bartel
10. Johnson
11. Lappin
12. Lewis

Entirely subjective and I am of course biased here. But I'll take the Lions fab 4, then geelong and then Hawthorn. Weird choice of things to fight about though because if you want to compare overall teams I think it is very arguable, would agree Hawks forward line is the best and geelong backline is the best.
Opinions are fine....And it's by no means a dick measuring contest.

All i'm doing here is demonstrating by way of premierships, finals, H&A winning %, personnel & games won/lost....That is, the facts…..That the Hawks dynasty was every bit as good, if not better than, the more revered Brions & Cats sides/eras.

The fact still remains that both our 4 boys & our era entail 1 more premiership than both of our esteemed adversaries & rivals.....I wont apologise for that particular fact being a crucial differential that the general trend of popular opinion just can't quite seem to account for nor square against.

Sam Mitchell has some 40 odd Brownlow votes more than Black.....I'm not saying he was a better footballer.....Hey, Hodge had more ability than Sam as a footballer....Lets be honest here.....But it's Sammy's application, consistency & full-on dedication & professionalism, that served to elevate both his game & his standing in the era he played in....His left side was every bit s good as his right.

Mitchell was far & away the most significant cog in our recent dynasty.....But Hodge & Burgoyne were far better naturally gifted footballers....You see the difference, Yes?
 
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Thread starter #54
You cant base who`s "fab 4" were the best based simply on the team results. Brisbanes mid group was imo the best of the ones mentioned, but Hawthorn had a better overall regular 22. Like I genuinely believe the Eagles during the mid part of the decade had the best midfield brigade of the 2000s, but the depth of talent wasnt there throughout the whole playing field.(seriously looking back at the 2006 flag we didnt have many "a-graders"the only true rolls royces we had were........Cousins, Kerr, Judd, Cox, Glass, Wirrpanda, other than the team was pretty much just above average)

The comparing of the fab 4s to each other using the whole teams results is the equivalent of comparing which city has the richest suburb, but using the average income stats of the entire city to do it.
The notion of the Fab 4 derives it's origins, in contemporary footballing parlance anyhow, from the Brions quartet of Black, Voss, Acker & Lappin....They were seen as the elite quartet who comprised the brilliant Brions midfield.....A defining factor of their dynasty which also served to differentiate them from all other teams in the competition at that time.

Sure, it's an arbitrary selective criteria, though it's still a judicious one all the same.....It's also fun....Especially when you consider the Cats & Hawks quartets whom hold up very nicely by comparison.....So yes, I'm drawing a direct parallel between dominant AFL eras with a dominant & elite inside core, if you will.

I believe that the theory is sound & holds water.....That the ominous parallels between the 3 eras & their elite inside quartet, are both essentially defining & interdependent.
 

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#55
The Fab 4 was a media dubbed term to talk about the dominant Lions engine room critical to their success at the time, relative to other clubs it was a huge strength.

At one point, the media starting questioning whether it should be considered a Fab 5, such was the form of Luke Power at one stage.
 
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Thread starter #56
The Fab 4 was a media dinner term to talk about the dominant Lions engine room critical to their success at the time, relative to other clubs it was a huge strength.

At one point, the media starting questioning whether it should be considered a Fab 5, such was the form of Luke Power at one stage.
It owes it's contemporary etymology to the Beatles, of course....And before that, d'Artagnan as the Fourth Musketeer from Alexandre Dumas' novel The 3 Musketeers.
 

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#57
It owes it's contemporary etymology to the Beatles, of course....And before that, d'Artagnan as the Fourth Musketeer from Alexandre Dumas' novel The 3 Musketeers.
I think it was written in an article, and a commentator or two the used it and from there the public just ran with it. It's similar to terms like the Big 4 or Clarkos Cluster, Pagans Paddock. At some point some form of media would have dubbed it, it gets a few mentions in the media and then the public runs with it to give it long term meaning, as is the case with Big 4 which has existed as a nickname for decades.
 

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#58
As a Hawks fan, I'm getting pretty sick & tired of posters in the Oz football & historical analysis threads, shitting on my club & it's players by their omission.

So for that reason, here's an objective comparison between 4 Hawks with their Brisbane & Geelong counter-parts....For whom so many believe we don't rate against.

Also....I won't be including Healy's BS AA awards as any kind of an objective measure here, as the Hawks had a very similar record as the Cats over the same comparative eras (Cats: 2007-2011 to Hawks: 2011-2015) & yet half the AA nominations....Which is complete ********..

Hawthorn Fab 4: Mitchell, Hodge, Burgoyne & Lewis:

2011-2015: Played 126; Won 99, Lost 27....Finals Played 16. Won 12 Lost 4.
All 4 players have played 300 games plus.
All 4 players have 4 premierships each.
9 Best & fairest between them.
2 Norm Smiths
1 Brownlow....Sam Mitchell 227 Brownlow votes. 3rd most in history.....Hodge 145 Votes & 3 time premiership Captain.

Brisbane Fab 4: Black, Voss, Ackermanis & Lappin:

2000-2004: Played 125, Won 88.5, Lost 36.5....Finals Played 15. Won 12 Lost 3.
Only 2 players have played over 300 games plus.
All 4 players have 3 premierships each.
11 Best & Fairest between them.
1 Brownlow.....Simon Black 184 Brownlow votes. 9th most in history.....Voss 150 Votes & 3 time premiership Captain.
1 Norm Smith

Geelong Fab 4: Ablett, Selwood, Johnson & Bartel:

2007-2011: Played 125, Won 105, Lost 20....Finals Played 15. Won 12 Lost 3
Only 2 players have played over 300 games plus
3 Players have played in 3 Premierships each, with Ablett 2.
9 Best & Fairest between them.
3 Brownlow....Gary Ablett Jnr 239 Brownlow votes. 2nd most in history....Selwood with 189 votes.
2 Norm Smiths

Conclusion: The Lions don't actually stack-up against the Cats & Hawks H&A records, due to their poor 2000....The Cats average 1 more win than the Hawks over the 5 year comparison.....Which in no way accounts for 2x as many AA's.....However, all 3 clubs rate the same across the finals in their respective eras.....Quite incredible really

My list means that Mitchell, Black & Ablett come in first rank for those 3 sides.
All of Hodge, Voss & Selwood are very comparable as leaders.
Burgoyne, Johnston & Ackermanis are the 3 sides x-factors.
The 4th musketeer is Lewis, Bartel & Lappin.

Conclusion: The Hawks measure up equally as well as the other 2 juggernauts....Plus all 4 Hawks have an extra premiership in their kit bag to boot, which gives them the decisive edge here. While the Cats slightly superior H&A record - over the 5 year journey - gives them the edge in the comparative dynasty stakes.

It's clearly: Geelong, Hawthorn then Brisbane a distant 3rd for the club eras.

As for who has the best Fab 4?.....Hawthorn's all have 4 premierships each.....Sorry peeps, it's Hawthorn, Brisbane then the Cats there, with a 12 -9 -8. record.

Meaning that the Hawks in 2nd & First place come in first, followed by the Cats with a first & third, then the Lions with a second & third.

Oh well......It appears the Big Footy frat has it all arse-ways about.
Seems you at least put some effort into the OP. Apart from Mitchell and perhaps Lewis, how much time did Hodge and Burgoyne spend in the midfield, particularly in finals?

I'd take Bartel out of Geelong's and put Ling in which then means playing against Hawthorn Mitchell wouldn't get a touch.
 
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Thread starter #59
Seems you at least put some effort into the OP. Apart from Mitchell and perhaps Lewis, how much time did Hodge and Burgoyne spend in the midfield, particularly in finals?

I'd take Bartel out of Geelong's and put Ling in which then means playing against Hawthorn Mitchell wouldn't get a touch.
Hodgey & Burgers spent most of the first half of the 2014 Grand final in the middle, in cutting the Swans midfield to shreds.

Like that clutch left foot goal Sammy kicked from just inside 50, right under Lingy's nose, to seal us the 2008 Premiership, you mean?

You must be joking....Ding-A-ling?...High calibre footballers only need apply....That would be like me nominating Shiels among this company.....Laughable.

Don't get me wrong, Lingy was likely your triple premiership era's best leader....But he has no place in this company.
 

Wojcinski

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#61
As a Hawks fan, I'm getting pretty sick & tired of posters in the Oz football & historical analysis threads, shitting on my club & it's players by their omission.

So for that reason, here's an objective comparison between 4 Hawks with their Brisbane & Geelong counter-parts....For whom so many believe we don't rate against.

Also....I won't be including Healy's BS AA awards as any kind of an objective measure here, as the Hawks had a very similar record as the Cats over the same comparative eras (Cats: 2007-2011 to Hawks: 2011-2015) & yet half the AA nominations....Which is complete ********..

Hawthorn Fab 4: Mitchell, Hodge, Burgoyne & Lewis:

2011-2015: Played 126; Won 99, Lost 27....Finals Played 16. Won 12 Lost 4.
All 4 players have played 300 games plus.
All 4 players have 4 premierships each.
9 Best & fairest between them.
2 Norm Smiths
1 Brownlow....Sam Mitchell 227 Brownlow votes. 3rd most in history.....Hodge 145 Votes & 3 time premiership Captain.

Brisbane Fab 4: Black, Voss, Ackermanis & Lappin:

2000-2004: Played 125, Won 88.5, Lost 36.5....Finals Played 15. Won 12 Lost 3.
Only 2 players have played over 300 games plus.
All 4 players have 3 premierships each.
11 Best & Fairest between them.
1 Brownlow.....Simon Black 184 Brownlow votes. 9th most in history.....Voss 150 Votes & 3 time premiership Captain.
1 Norm Smith

Geelong Fab 4: Ablett, Selwood, Johnson & Bartel:

2007-2011: Played 125, Won 105, Lost 20....Finals Played 15. Won 12 Lost 3
Only 2 players have played over 300 games plus
3 Players have played in 3 Premierships each, with Ablett 2.
9 Best & Fairest between them.
3 Brownlow....Gary Ablett Jnr 239 Brownlow votes. 2nd most in history....Selwood with 189 votes.
2 Norm Smiths

Conclusion: The Lions don't actually stack-up against the Cats & Hawks H&A records, due to their poor 2000....The Cats average 1 more win than the Hawks over the 5 year comparison.....Which in no way accounts for 2x as many AA's.....However, all 3 clubs rate the same across the finals in their respective eras.....Quite incredible really

My list means that Mitchell, Black & Ablett come in first rank for those 3 sides.
All of Hodge, Voss & Selwood are very comparable as leaders.
Burgoyne, Johnston & Ackermanis are the 3 sides x-factors.
The 4th musketeer is Lewis, Bartel & Lappin.

Conclusion: The Hawks measure up equally as well as the other 2 juggernauts....Plus all 4 Hawks have an extra premiership in their kit bag to boot, which gives them the decisive edge here. While the Cats slightly superior H&A record - over the 5 year journey - gives them the edge in the comparative dynasty stakes.

It's clearly: Geelong, Hawthorn then Brisbane a distant 3rd for the club eras.

As for who has the best Fab 4?.....Hawthorn's all have 4 premierships each.....Sorry peeps, it's Hawthorn, Brisbane then the Cats there, with a 12 -9 -8. record.

Meaning that the Hawks in 2nd & First place come in first, followed by the Cats with a first & third, then the Lions with a second & third.

Oh well......It appears the Big Footy frat has it all arse-ways about.
All that analysis and you finish it with "hawks fab 4 are da best because they got more flagz" :rolleyes:
 

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Thread starter #62
All that analysis and you finish it with "hawks fab 4 are da best because they got more flagz" :rolleyes:

Sure....Because that's my opinion.

The same way the Cats had the best era because they had the best H & A record & winning % out of all 3.

Similarly, the Hawk fab 4 has the best Premiership winning % out of all 3 Fab 4's....And premierships are the ultimate measure of greatness & success.
 

Wojcinski

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#63
Sure....Because that's my opinion.

The same way the Cats had the best era because they had the best H & A record & winning % out of all 3.

Similarly, the Hawk fab 4 has the best Premiership winning % out of all 3 Fab 4's....And premierships are the ultimate measure of greatness & success.
Basing 4 players skill vs another set of 4 players and using flags as the reasoning is farcical. You have a lot of good analysis in your original post but that conclusion certainly isn't.
 
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Thread starter #64
Basing 4 players skill vs another set of 4 players and using flags as the reasoning is farcical. You have a lot of good analysis in your original post but that conclusion certainly isn't.
The entire rationale behind this thread is the direct corollary drawn between the Fab 4 of these 3 sides & their teams successful dynasty's.

You don't read so good.
 
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Thread starter #65
You cant base who`s "fab 4" were the best based simply on the team results. Brisbanes mid group was imo the best of the ones mentioned, but Hawthorn had a better overall regular 22. Like I genuinely believe the Eagles during the mid part of the decade had the best midfield brigade of the 2000s, but the depth of talent wasnt there throughout the whole playing field.(seriously looking back at the 2006 flag we didnt have many "a-graders"the only true rolls royces we had were........Cousins, Kerr, Judd, Cox, Glass, Wirrpanda, other than the team was pretty much just above average)

The comparing of the fab 4s to each other using the whole teams results is the equivalent of comparing which city has the richest suburb, but using the average income stats of the entire city to do it.

One might possibly argue that Judd, Kerr, Cousins & Cox are an equivalent Fab 4 to the 3 sides here mentioned, with only one minor failing however.

That being that the Eagles only won a single Premiership with them, which in no ways constitutes a dynasty as such....So being 2 Premierships short of the requirement means your side fails to be included in this conversation.

That really ought to be self-evident.
 
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Thread starter #67
Brisbane in that 3 peat were the most sure thing ever. As good as hawthorn or the cats were, didn't have the same dominance. It is a non contest.
Lions by far the best dynasty

Unfortunately, the facts & the stats simply don't bear out your claim here.....In fact, they contradict them almost entirely....Meaning that your opinion is based upon pure perspectivism & supposition alone....Perhaps there's also a fair smattering of Hawk & Cat envy in there to boot, I'd venture.....Understandable really.
 

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#68
Brisbane in that 3 peat were the most sure thing ever. As good as hawthorn or the cats were, didn't have the same dominance. It is a non contest.
Lions by far the best dynasty
Agree - winning 3 Grand Finals V Vic sides elvated the Lions above the other 2.

Altough the Cats did it against 2 which has them over take the Hawks as the 2nd best side.
 
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#69
Unfortunately, the facts & the stats simply don't bear out your claim here.....In fact, they contradict them almost entirely....Meaning that your opinion is based upon pure perspectivism & supposition alone....Perhaps there's also a fair smattering of Hawk & Cat envy in there to boot, I'd venture.....Understandable really.
Too many variables to be calling it facts and supporting it with stats.
Different eras different rules diluted by draft years among other things. Football is about entertainment and in it's purest form the lions were by far and many will agree by far the best dynasty. As for envy there is plenty but the envy is mostly for that lions era. I understand and I see your argument but I disagree. I am sure I am allowed.
 
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Thread starter #70
Agree - winning 3 Grand Finals V Vic sides elvated the Lions above the other 2.

Altough the Cats did it against 2 which has them over take the Hawks as the 2nd best side.
LOL.

How it must sting that Brian Lake has more Premiership medallions, than any Kangaroo player, in your club's history....Yeowch.
 

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#71
LOL.

How it must sting that Brian Lake has more Premiership medallions, than any Kangaroo player, in your club's history....Yeowch.
What a bizarre post. How could that possibly sting? Does it sting Brett Allison has more premiership medals than Shane Crawford??

It looks like what stings is that most see through your little puff piece are rate the Lions 1.

If you can’t handle others opinion write your rubbish and then get the thread locked for no more replies.
 
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Thread starter #72
What a bizarre post. How could that possibly sting? Does it sting Brett Allison has more premiership medals than Shane Crawford??

It looks like what stings is that most see through your little puff piece are rate the Lions 1.

If you can’t handle others opinion write your rubbish and then get the thread locked for no more replies.
The Brions have been exposed in this here thread, as bringing up the rear, as compared to the Hawks & Cats dynasty's.

You're welcome to your opinions to the contrary, but allow me the privilege - in a thread I created - to contrast those opinions up against the facts....A process you are clearly somewhat perturbed by, as your posting history in this thread has demonstrated well enough of it's on accord.
 
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Thread starter #73
Agree - winning 3 Grand Finals V Vic sides elvated the Lions above the other 2.

Altough the Cats did it against 2 which has them over take the Hawks as the 2nd best side.

This argument you keep making is as absurd as it is ridiculous.

Sydney smashed your Kangaroos by over 10 goals in the 2014 Preliminary Final, yet according to your logic here, if the Kangaroos had won & we beat them - as we would have - then that would have made our 2014 Premiership more meritorious....Stoopid is as stoopid does.

Not only that, it was then an interstate side in Port Adelaide who knocked off the Brisbane juggernaut in 2004.

Once again, Hawthorn almost knocked off Essendon in the 2001 Preliminary final & would have, if it were not for Goldspank….And Collingwood has the worst Grand Final winning record in the history of the VFL/AFL comp....These facts alone render your absurd thesis as utterly redundant.

Even the 2 Cats Flags against Victorian opposition came against the 2 clubs with the worst Grand Final records in VFL/AFL history....How on earth that makes them more meritorious is beyond any logic whatsoever.

Face it, you're fully jelly of the Hawks treble; & the fact we took 2 flags off your mob in the 70's is still clearly sticking in your craw.

Oh yeah,....13 Premierships>>>>>>>>4.....

And tell that possum Petrie that Lakey sends him his thoughts & 3 Premiership winning medlions.
 
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#74
This argument you keep making is as absurd as it is ridiculous.

Sydney smashed your Kangaroos by over 10 goals in the 2014 Preliminary Final, yet according to your logic here, if the Kangaroos had won & we beat them - as we would have - then that would have made our 2014 Premiership more meritorious....Stoopid is as stoopid does.

Not only that, it was then an interstate side in Port Adelaide who knocked off the Brisbane juggernaut in 2004.

Once again, Hawthorn almost knocked off Essendon in the 2001 Preliminary final & would have, if it were not for Goldspank….And Collingwood has the worst Grand Final winning record in the history of the VFL/AFL comp....These facts alone render your absurd thesis as utterly redundant.

Even the 2 Cats Flags against Victorian opposition came against the 2 clubs with the worst Grand Final records in VFL/AFL history....How on earth that makes them more meritorious is beyond any logic whatsoever.

Face it, you're fully jelly of the Hawks treble; & the fact we took 2 flags off your mob in the 70's is still clearly sticking in your craw.

Oh yeah,....13 Premierships>>>>>>>>4.....

And tell that possum Petrie that Lakey sends him his thoughts & 3 Premiership winning medlions.
You have officially hit rock bottom and now starting to dig.

What has the Roos got to do with the all powerful Brisbane Lions team? The greatest and most brutal of the AFL era.
 
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