Unsolved The Family Murders

[Kurve]

- Mullighan Inquiry SA
- Murder of Dr. George Duncan
- The Disappearance of Daniel Shepherd
- The Disappearance of James Crocker
- SBS - OUT OF SIGHT Adelaide's gay-hate murders
- Colin Manock as Chief Forensic Pathologist SA

 

[squawk]

Someone was asking Charlie a while back where Dario/Darko Kastelan lived. The 1979 telephone directory lists the Kastelans at 677 Torrens Rd, Cheltenham.
The Legal Services Commission was at 24 Flinders St in 1979 - just a few blocks from where Neil Muir lived in Carrington Street.

 

[JezMez]

Why would Muir go to Legal Aid?

It's a bit annoying that all these years later there's speculation about whether it was AB or NM. Maybe SAPol know it's either one of them, or neither one of them, and that's fair enough. But there's also a big chance that an opportunity was missed to go and re-interview the witness and show them images of both Muir and Barnes.

The ebook claimed that the call made to Stogneff the night before was never traced. This is an astounding revelation. The Stogneff family think it was Peter's uncle (approx 4 years older that Peter). But the caller has never been confirmed (meaning it wasn't traced, and Peter's uncle denied making it).

What about comparing BVE's hair to the hair found at Millhouse's? It wouldn't have been done during the Millhouse investigation/trial because they didn't know BVE was involved at that time. But once BVE was arrested for Kelvin, did they go through file and make the comparison?

Maybe they did all this stuff and it's not our business. Maybe they didn't do it and they need another review/coroner's report/Royal Commission?

 

[squawk]

There are facts, there is speculation and there is reasonable assumption.

There’s speculation that NM was in the car with BVE when AB was picked up. There’s speculation that NM was at Stevenson’s house the night he was murdered. It’s probably a fact that NM was struggling with life and IF he was being drawn into even darker sides of life he may have wanted to “get out” - especially with having a fiancé and a child.
I think it’s a reasonable assumption to say Police have not investigated this very well. There would be a range of reasons for this which have been previously discussed. It also seems they rushed parts of the investigation by offering immunity deals and hoping that would at least get them somewhere, yet it didn’t.
this is why it might be time for a Royal Commission - to look at not only the investigation but to also bring the main players back in, in their ageing states, to see if something can be salvaged from the whole calamity and some (if not full) closure can finally be achieved.
Gambardella says he is willing to talk. Turtur has started to talk. Mr B - ? Mr R never seemed to be out under much pressure, he wasn’t even a witness for the Kelvin trial IIRC. Then there is Woodards and MGL and Darko Kastelan. I don’t know if Gant or Brook or Collier are still around. Plus there are no doubt known victims still alive who might come forward and there might even be victims olwho haven’t previously come forward that may now. Who knows what the redacted elements of the Mulligan Inquiry said?
Plenty of reasons to have a real go at this (again) now....

 

[Bits]

Gant & Brook are long gone but Megan Collier is definitely alive.

 

[DropBearess]

Gant & Brook are long gone but Megan Collier is definitely alive.

Megan was Pru's best friend of many years. She would know everything Pru knew, hence would be in possession of plenty of vital information.

 

[squawk]

Megan was Pru's best friend of many years. She would know everything Pru knew, hence would be in possession of plenty of vital information.

Where is Megan now?

 

[DropBearess]

Where is Megan now?

Still living in SA I believe.

 

[Bits]

Megan was Pru's best friend of many years. She would know everything Pru knew, hence would be in possession of plenty of vital information.

I will never understand why nobody, other than Mr B apparently, went to the police.

How could so many people be aware of such horrific crimes and say nothing, and I’m talking about drugging and raping as well, not just the murders.

Yes, they were all drug addicted, mandrax gobbling, heroin using etc, reliant on BvE for their pills, but nobody had a shred of decency? Not one of them thought, gee hang on this isn’t right?

And afterwards, they just went on their way with no repercussions?

A dig through Facebook shows that Pru, Sarah, Megan, Samantha were highly thought of in the trans community, and are referred to as warm, caring, supportive people. It’s like they were living two completely separate lives.

I would love to know how hard police pushed them at the time.

 

[DropBearess]

I will never understand why nobody, other than Mr B apparently, went to the police.

How could so many people be aware of such horrific crimes and say nothing, and I’m talking about drugging and raping as well, not just the murders.

Yes, they were all drug addicted, mandrax gobbling, heroin using etc, reliant on BvE for their pills, but nobody had a shred of decency? Not one of them thought, gee hang on this isn’t right?

And afterwards, they just went on their way with no repercussions?

A dig through Facebook shows that Pru, Sarah, Megan, Samantha were highly thought of in the trans community, and are referred to as warm, caring, supportive people. It’s like they were living two completely separate lives.

I would love to know how hard police pushed them at the time.

They did indeed just go on with it all afterwards, without a shred of decency. They hid in Sydney for several years, then returned and life went on.

I, too have never been able to grasp exactly how people could behave like this, especially after knowing full well what was likely to happen after AB. They went ahead as BVE's assistants just the same.

Then, on returning, a couple of them went into roles in a caring capacity (nursing etc.). Goodness knows how people could live two different lives.

I believe very little pressure was placed on Pru.
As far as l know she was formally interviewed only once, twice at most. Two informal interviews as well, possibly. She testified at BVE's trial. Charlie would know more.

 

[JezMez]

There are facts, there is speculation and there is reasonable assumption.

There’s speculation that NM was in the car with BVE when AB was picked up. There’s speculation that NM was at Stevenson’s house the night he was murdered. It’s probably a fact that NM was struggling with life and IF he was being drawn into even darker sides of life he may have wanted to “get out” - especially with having a fiancé and a child.
I think it’s a reasonable assumption to say Police have not investigated this very well. There would be a range of reasons for this which have been previously discussed. It also seems they rushed parts of the investigation by offering immunity deals and hoping that would at least get them somewhere, yet it didn’t.
this is why it might be time for a Royal Commission - to look at not only the investigation but to also bring the main players back in, in their ageing states, to see if something can be salvaged from the whole calamity and some (if not full) closure can finally be achieved.
Gambardella says he is willing to talk. Turtur has started to talk. Mr B - ? Mr R never seemed to be out under much pressure, he wasn’t even a witness for the Kelvin trial IIRC. Then there is Woodards and MGL and Darko Kastelan. I don’t know if Gant or Brook or Collier are still around. Plus there are no doubt known victims still alive who might come forward and there might even be victims olwho haven’t previously come forward that may now. Who knows what the redacted elements of the Mulligan Inquiry said?
Plenty of reasons to have a real go at this (again) now....

Wasn't there speculation Barnes was at Stevenson's the night of? First I've heard about Muir. There's speculation Derrance may have been dealing H (or using it to ply young street kids with). So Muir could have been involved in some trade, but by that time he was pretty washed up.

No doubt, opportunities have been missed.

 

[Kurve]

Wasn't there speculation Barnes was at Stevenson's the night of? First I've heard about Muir. There's speculation Derrance may have been dealing H (or using it to ply young street kids with). So Muir could have been involved in some trade, but by that time he was pretty washed up.

No doubt, opportunities have been missed.

That Neil Muir might have been at Derrance's house was raised in here back a bit in the thread. His brother on Frozen Lies had said that Neil talked about going to a house with a floppy roof. We know now that Neil also had priors so it's possible he may have used Derrance before and that he might be familiar with the Legal Aid offices. The question has been asked in here prior, if it wasn't Alan that showed up at Legal Aid the morning after the murder, if it could have been Neil.

 

[JezMez]

That Neil Muir might have been at Derrance's house was raised in here early in the thread. His brother on Frozen Lies had said that Neil talked about going to a house with a floppy roof. We know now that Neil also had priors so it's possible he may have used Derrance before and that he might be familiar with the Legal Aid offices. The question has been asked in here prior, if it wasn't Alan that showed up at Legal Aid the morning after the murder, if it could have been Neil.

There's not really any evidence he was there on the night of though. Just some speculation on a forum. I'm not sure where Debi Marshall got her info from but she seemed to think there was a big chance Darko was there and from memory, a reasonable chance Barnes was there. As Bits said - it's just amazing that some many people who knew things opted to stay silent. Gamba could probably clear this up.

 

[Kurve]

There's not really any evidence he was there on the night of though. Just some speculation on a forum. I'm not sure where Debi Marshall got her info from but she seemed to think there was a big chance Darko was there and from memory, a reasonable chance Barnes was there. As Bits said - it's just amazing that some many people who knew things opted to stay silent. Gamba could probably clear this up.

Agree, there's not evidence he was there on the night but we can be sure someone else was outside of the known. And it makes sense others were there.

 

[GreyCrow]

I will never understand why nobody, other than Mr B apparently, went to the police.

How could so many people be aware of such horrific crimes and say nothing, and I’m talking about drugging and raping as well, not just the murders.

Yes, they were all drug addicted, mandrax gobbling, heroin using etc, reliant on BvE for their pills, but nobody had a shred of decency? Not one of them thought, gee hang on this isn’t right?

And afterwards, they just went on their way with no repercussions?

A dig through Facebook shows that Pru, Sarah, Megan, Samantha were highly thought of in the trans community, and are referred to as warm, caring, supportive people. It’s like they were living two completely separate lives.

I would love to know how hard police pushed them at the time.

They did indeed just go on with it all afterwards, without a shred of decency. They hid in Sydney for several years, then returned and life went on.

I, too have never been able to grasp exactly people could behave like this, especially after knowing full well what was likely to happen after AB. They went ahead as BVE's assistants just the same.

Then, on returning, a couple of them went into roles in a caring capacity (nursing etc.). Goodness knows how people could live two different lives.

I believe very little pressure was placed on Pru.
As far as l know she was formally interviewed only once, twice at most. Two informal interviews as well, possibly. She testified at BVE's trial. Charlie would know more.

Just as Mr B was ultimately discredited due to lifestyle and drug use - so would these 3/4 - even more so than Mr B .

Today may be a different story but in 1985 having their lives paraded for all to see would not have led them to be open about what happened

As to how such behaviour conflicts with later life events is quite common. A need to atone may have drawn some to caring. (personal atonement not public)

I do agree that now is the time to place pressure on those still alive

 

[GreyCrow]

Megan was Pru's best friend of many years. She would know everything Pru knew, hence would be in possession of plenty of vital information.

What is the legal position on such testimony? Is it hearsay?

 

[Bits]

Just as Mr B was ultimately discredited due to lifestyle and drug use - so would these 3/4 - even more so than Mr B .

Today may be a different story but in 1985 having their lives paraded for all to see would not have led them to be open about what happened

Totally agree. My point was, at least Mr B tried to tell the police. As far as we know, nobody else said anything at all to stop this.

There are so many others not directly implicated in the murders who could have made a phone call or dropped a note into a letterbox. At the very least, with more reports, the police may have taken things more seriously and turned up the heat under BvE much sooner. As Charlie has said repeatedly there were four boys after Alan who could have been saved, and possibly dozens, if not hundreds, of rapes prevented.

 

[squawk]

What is the legal position on such testimony? Is it hearsay?

It probably is but if the same hearsay is repeated by different people then it paints a good picture. The point is that new lines of inquiry and questioning can be opened up for police PLUS an Inquiry such as a Royal Commission can make recommendations to Police.

 

[DropBearess]

What is the legal position on such testimony? Is it hearsay?

I believe it would be hearsay and therefore inadmissible.

 

[squawk]

If anyone is interested in contextual reading, there are a couple of books worth looking at.
The Salisbury Affair by Stewart Cockburn. What’s interesting is that Dunstan sacked the Police Commussioner because he wanted to clean the town up, so to speak. The issue was that some of the people Salisbury was looking at mixed in Dunstan’s circles. These days the Police Commissioner has carriage of operational decisions so it’s unlikely the same situation could occur now. This resulted in a Royal Commission (but I haven’t looked at that myself).
The other book is by Des Ryan and Mike McEwen and is called “It’s Grossly Improper”. Published in Nov 1979, it is best summarised by this short paragraph in the book....
“This is the story of how Dunstan chose wrongly between the principles he espoused, of accountability and integrity in government, and personal, selfish considerations which violated those same principles. It is the story of how Dunstan’s administration of government in SA was influenced by his sexual relationship with another man. In writing this book we were guided by one philosophy: the personal life of a public figure should be its own; but once that private life affects his capacity to execute his public duties in a responsible manner then it becomes the legitimate subject of the closest scrutiny. Dunstan himself has expressed the same opinion.”

 

[squawk]

I believe it would be hearsay and therefore inadmissible.

But not necessarily in a Royal Commission, I don’t think. (Happy to stand corrected). A RC is an Inquiry with sweeping and coercive powers that has different rules to a Court of Law. The Govt sets the Terms of Reference for a RC so it is charged to investigate to find answers to the terms of reference and make recommendations as a result.

 

[bth18]

Royal commissions can compel witnesses/suspects to speak whereas in courts they don’t have to - that would be hugely beneficial in this instance

 

[DropBearess]

If anyone is interested in contextual reading, there are a couple of books worth looking at.
The Salisbury Affair by Stewart Cockburn. What’s interesting is that Dunstan sacked the Police Commussioner because he wanted to clean the town up, so to speak. The issue was that some of the people Salisbury was looking at mixed in Dunstan’s circles. These days the Police Commissioner has carriage of operational decisions so it’s unlikely the same situation could occur now. This resulted in a Royal Commission (but I haven’t looked at that myself).
The other book is by Des Ryan and Mike McEwen and is called “It’s Grossly Improper”. Published in Nov 1979, it is best summarised by this short paragraph in the book....
“This is the story of how Dunstan chose wrongly between the principles he espoused, of accountability and integrity in government, and personal, selfish considerations which violated those same principles. It is the story of how Dunstan’s administration of government in SA was influenced by his sexual relationship with another man. In writing this book we were guided by one philosophy: the personal life of a public figure should be its own; but once that private life affects his capacity to execute his public duties in a responsible manner then it becomes the legitimate subject of the closest scrutiny. Dunstan himself has expressed the same opinion.”

Thanks for reminding us about those books Squawk. I read both many years ago and of course there was no apparent relevance therein to this case at the time. Required reading l reckon. Chasing both up on Kindle right now for good camping reads!

 

[Punk Rooster 16]

Someone was asking Charlie a while back where Dario/Darko Kastelan lived. The 1979 telephone directory lists the Kastelans at 677 Torrens Rd, Cheltenham.
The Legal Services Commission was at 24 Flinders St in 1979 - just a few blocks from where Neil Muir lived in Carrington Street.

Dennis Ronald Edwards (aka D St D) at Allenby Gardens?
BSVE at Mile End (although I’d read somewhere it was Thebarton, and near the Brewery...)

 

[squawk]

Dennis Ronald Edwards (aka D St D) at Allenby Gardens?
BSVE at Mile End (although I’d read somewhere it was Thebarton, and near the Brewery...)

Yes I did see BVE at an address in Thebarton. It’s an industrial site now - looks like Sharpe electrical on Google Earth. I didn’t keep a record of it though - it was circa mid-late 70s.

 

[squawk]

Thanks for reminding us about those books Squawk. I read both many years ago and of course there was no apparent relevance therein to this case at the time. Required reading l reckon. Chasing both up on Kindle right now for good camping reads!

Yes I read them both some time ago as well. I still have both books, which I have dug out and will endeavour to revisit! Would also be interesting to look at the report of the Salisbury Royal Commission.