Unsolved The Family Murders

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Kurve

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Dec 27, 2016
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Of interest: Out of Sight - The Untold Story of Adelaide's Gay Hate Murders

Use this thread below to lodge media, maps and photos for quick reference.

 
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SquiffyRae

Senior List
Sep 28, 2020
239
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Collingwood
I just noticed one of the reviews had been taken down, the one that mentions someone says hello.

One has been modified too. Not sure if that is the businessman himself, but I can't see how an online review with a name could be getting into legal territory?
I guess if you were Mr R's lawyer you could probably make a pretty convincing legal argument that when suppression orders on your name relate to your alleged involvement in crimes committed by Bevan Spencer von Einem, having an obviously bogus review on your antiques business bearing your name could be considered identifiable - especially when you've become known variously by the names Mr R, the businessman and occasionally more specifically as an antiques dealer. It's not specifically breaking any suppression order on his name by mentioning Bevan but could probably be considered close enough to outing him that he could get it removed.

But I dunno. Maybe he was just really good friends with former Australian batsman Michael Bevan and Michael wants to reconnect

I guess we can take this as confirmation Mr R is still in the land of the living. Someone wanted those reviews taken down/modified
 

theredrooster

Draftee
Jun 23, 2022
2
0
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Hello John Barnes,

Firstly. Thank you for opening yourself up in the very honest and forthright way you have in this forum. I am sure it’s extremely painful to continue to relive this filth over and over again.

I am deeply sorry for all that your family has been through over the last 4+ decades, but hopefully, your bravery in speaking up here is keeping the cases buoyant and the pressure on the police to hopefully bring these atrocities to licit convictions.

I have followed these cases for some time and have a fairly good understanding of most information that is publicly available. I would, however, like to ask you a few questions, if I my?

If you feel any of the questions are getting into dangerous or uncomfortable territories, legally or personally, please feel free to refrain. (But, my understanding is, you can’t defame nor need to suppress those who are already dead.)

  1. Firstly, do you believe BVE was involved in picking up 100s of young men, drugging them and sexually assaulting them over the 5-10+ year period? What approximate total number would your intel and/or instinct suggest?
  2. Do you believe BVE potentially, all of the time and/or some of the time, invited other associates to join the nonconsensual, unconscious rape of these victims?
  3. Whilst each incident most probably involved different co-conspirators, do you believe these attackers were more than just the transexual, friend housemates who it’s been reported, on occasion, provided BVE with a venue?
  4. Do you believe BVE was also delivering these unconscious young men to “higher level” co-conspirators ie: doctors, politicians, lawyers, professionals etc who also potentially shared a-joint, sadist lust for docile youths?
  5. Do you believe Alan was one of the 100s of hitchhikers coaxed into the car and drugged, but that he was accidentally killed during his attack? Or, do you feel it was premeditated for “his pack” to take his life? If so, do you have a theory why he was singled out not to be released?
  6. Do you believe Neil Muir was murdered by “his pack” (for want of a better word, but accepting each attack potentially involved different offenders) for knowing too much about Alan’s purposeful or accidental murder?
  7. Do you believe Peter and Mark were also coaxed and drugged, to be potentially passed around and then released, but also potentially accidentally died during "their" brutality? Or do you feel they were deliberately murdered by “their packs”?
  8. Do you feel the Kelvin case got so big “his pack” had no choice but to murder him?
  9. How many other male youths, do you feel, potentially also died in similar attacks, by these associates, that we simply don’t know about publicly? (Ie: Perhaps they were homeless or in an orphanage or their disappearances were never properly investigated?)
  10. Do you personally feel the late-Premier Don Dunstan may have been involved in interfering with the judicial process, given his well-known, close, personal association with several of those mentioned, many many times in the media, as suspected “pack” members and associates?
  11. Do you personally think Don Dunstan potentially partook in any of the rapes, given he too was gay (slash bi) and attracted to younger men? Do you feel compromising footage may exist of Dunstan, which then potentially forced his intervention? (This was very much the tactic employed in recent years by Jeffrey Epstein and his vile associates).
  12. What evidence do you feel the police still need to lay convictions for the murder of your brother and Peter, Mark and Neil?
  13. What message do you have for all the forum members here? What can we individually and collectively do to help you, and all the victim's families?
 

Hendrix27

Debutant
Nov 9, 2019
50
40
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Adelaide
I guess if you were Mr R's lawyer you could probably make a pretty convincing legal argument that when suppression orders on your name relate to your alleged involvement in crimes committed by Bevan Spencer von Einem, having an obviously bogus review on your antiques business bearing your name could be considered identifiable - especially when you've become known variously by the names Mr R, the businessman and occasionally more specifically as an antiques dealer. It's not specifically breaking any suppression order on his name by mentioning Bevan but could probably be considered close enough to outing him that he could get it removed.

But I dunno. Maybe he was just really good friends with former Australian batsman Michael Bevan and Michael wants to reconnect

I guess we can take this as confirmation Mr R is still in the land of the living. Someone wanted those reviews taken down/modified
Weird thing is Mr R is named in court documents available online to the public.
 

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bth18

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Oct 22, 2020
132
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suppression orders are a little bit funny and outdated in the internet age - really what they should be called are 'non-publication orders' because they were made to prevent media from publishing their names or details, or in Mr R's case his specific industry, that court document on the other hand is not media which is likely why.

I could also walk down rundle mall lunch time tomorrow and tell every single person who it is and that's perfectly fine
 

Wooden Robot

Club Legend
Feb 6, 2019
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suppression orders are a little bit funny and outdated in the internet age - really what they should be called are 'non-publication orders' because they were made to prevent media from publishing their names or details, or in Mr R's case his specific industry, that court document on the other hand is not media which is likely why.

I could also walk down rundle mall lunch time tomorrow and tell every single person who it is and that's perfectly fine

I'm sure he monitors this site too
 
Dec 23, 2021
9
29
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Hello John Barnes,

Firstly. Thank you for opening yourself up in the very honest and forthright way you have in this forum. I am sure it’s extremely painful to continue to relive this filth over and over again.

I am deeply sorry for all that your family has been through over the last 4+ decades, but hopefully, your bravery in speaking up here is keeping the cases buoyant and the pressure on the police to hopefully bring these atrocities to licit convictions.

I have followed these cases for some time and have a fairly good understanding of most information that is publicly available. I would, however, like to ask you a few questions, if I my?

If you feel any of the questions are getting into dangerous or uncomfortable territories, legally or personally, please feel free to refrain. (But, my understanding is, you can’t defame nor need to suppress those who are already dead.)

  1. Firstly, do you believe BVE was involved in picking up 100s of young men, drugging them and sexually assaulting them over the 5-10+ year period? What approximate total number would your intel and/or instinct suggest?
  2. Do you believe BVE potentially, all of the time and/or some of the time, invited other associates to join the nonconsensual, unconscious rape of these victims?
  3. Whilst each incident most probably involved different co-conspirators, do you believe these attackers were more than just the transexual, friend housemates who it’s been reported, on occasion, provided BVE with a venue?
  4. Do you believe BVE was also delivering these unconscious young men to “higher level” co-conspirators ie: doctors, politicians, lawyers, professionals etc who also potentially shared a-joint, sadist lust for docile youths?
  5. Do you believe Alan was one of the 100s of hitchhikers coaxed into the car and drugged, but that he was accidentally killed during his attack? Or, do you feel it was premeditated for “his pack” to take his life? If so, do you have a theory why he was singled out not to be released?
  6. Do you believe Neil Muir was murdered by “his pack” (for want of a better word, but accepting each attack potentially involved different offenders) for knowing too much about Alan’s purposeful or accidental murder?
  7. Do you believe Peter and Mark were also coaxed and drugged, to be potentially passed around and then released, but also potentially accidentally died during "their" brutality? Or do you feel they were deliberately murdered by “their packs”?
  8. Do you feel the Kelvin case got so big “his pack” had no choice but to murder him?
  9. How many other male youths, do you feel, potentially also died in similar attacks, by these associates, that we simply don’t know about publicly? (Ie: Perhaps they were homeless or in an orphanage or their disappearances were never properly investigated?)
  10. Do you personally feel the late-Premier Don Dunstan may have been involved in interfering with the judicial process, given his well-known, close, personal association with several of those mentioned, many many times in the media, as suspected “pack” members and associates?
  11. Do you personally think Don Dunstan potentially partook in any of the rapes, given he too was gay (slash bi) and attracted to younger men? Do you feel compromising footage may exist of Dunstan, which then potentially forced his intervention? (This was very much the tactic employed in recent years by Jeffrey Epstein and his vile associates).
  12. What evidence do you feel the police still need to lay convictions for the murder of your brother and Peter, Mark and Neil?
  13. What message do you have for all the forum members here? What can we individually and collectively do to help you, and all the victim's families?
Has anyone of any credibility directly implied the involvement of Don Dunstan in The Family's horrific acts? Besides an association (of an unclear level of closeness) with some of the figures potentially also involved. It's a very serious accusation against a deceased person who has no way to defend themselves and to whom there is seemingly little evidence of having ever partaken in such abhorrent behavior.

Also regarding point 11, just because someone is bi/gay, it doesn't mean they're automatically going to partake in sexually assaulting someone as you seem to imply. Someone being bi/gay does not by default make them any more likely to be a sex offender than a straight person.
 

ElizabethG

Draftee
Aug 18, 2021
17
22
AFL Club
Adelaide
Has anyone of any credibility directly implied the involvement of Don Dunstan in The Family's horrific acts? Besides an association (of an unclear level of closeness) with some of the figures potentially also involved. It's a very serious accusation against a deceased person who has no way to defend themselves and to whom there is seemingly little evidence of having ever partaken in such abhorrent behavior.

Also regarding point 11, just because someone is bi/gay, it doesn't mean they're automatically going to partake in sexually assaulting someone as you seem to imply. Someone being bi/gay does not by default make them any more likely to be a sex offender than a straight person.

Well, if I remember correctly someone came forward in Debi's book who stated that as a youth/young man he was invited to a sauna where Dunstan was already sitting (naked) with other boys/young men. Understandably, he felt extremely uncomfortable. So of course, this is only speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if Dunstan himself has partaken in rapes or taken advantage of boys/young men sometimes.
Also, BVE apparently stated that he once was at some New Year's Eve Party (?) and that the prime minister was also present, so if true, it's very likely they met. This account of course has to be viewed with caution since we all know that BVE is a notorious lier... Apart from that the gay community in Adelaide wasn't that huge back in the day, so I guess chances are they knew each other? Or a friend of his whose friend whose friend and so on knew him?
 

ElizabethG

Draftee
Aug 18, 2021
17
22
AFL Club
Adelaide
I also wanted to ask another question about the exact location of Richard Kelvin's tragic and brutal abduction.
If I understand correctly, Peppertree Lane connects Boulton and Margaret Street (and also Margaret and Murray Street). Because on Maps it looks as if Peppertree Lane doesn't connect the two streets. But from what I've been reading, I think it has to... Also, a car wouldn't fit into this laneway, would it? So it would be only accessible by pedestrians.

It has been discussed in the threat as well that Richard might have noticed that someone was following him (or maybe von Einem even tried to lure him into the car beforehand when Richard came out of Marian Street). Therefore Richard may have decided to run into Peppertree Lane, so that the car couldn't follow him. According to the people who heard the noises, the abduction might have taken place when he exited the laneway on Margaret Street.
What are your thoughts on that? And do you think he was encountered before?
 

theredrooster

Draftee
Jun 23, 2022
2
0
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Has anyone of any credibility directly implied the involvement of Don Dunstan in The Family's horrific acts? Besides an association (of an unclear level of closeness) with some of the figures potentially also involved. It's a very serious accusation against a deceased person who has no way to defend themselves and to whom there is seemingly little evidence of having ever partaken in such abhorrent behavior.

Also regarding point 11, just because someone is bi/gay, it doesn't mean they're automatically going to partake in sexually assaulting someone as you seem to imply. Someone being bi/gay does not by default make them any more likely to be a sex offender than a straight person.

Under no circumstance was I suggesting Don Dunstan had taken part in any of The Family murders - nor the atrocious offenses discussed in this thread.

I was merely asking John Barnes (the brother of a victim) for HIS opinion on the matter - which I made very clear he is free to decline.

The reason for this question: over the past four decades, multiple members of Mr Barnes’ family, including his late-mother and sister, have made, on the record public statements suggesting: “This cover up goes all the way to the top, BVE was merely a delivery boy”. To me, and perhaps others, “the top” implies extreme seniority — such as, perhaps, the leader of a parliamentary jurisdiction for example.

Investigative work, presented by Debi Marshall, also provides first-hand witness accounts suggesting advances of a potentially sexual nature were, at times made, by Premier Dunstan towards younger men.

It’s my understanding, from my own research, Premier Dunstan was also a neighbour and close, social associate and friend to multiple of the men listed in court transcripts, the media, and in fact this thread as having potential closeness to the case.

Public record also shows, that shady operators such as Abe Safron, who was also active in South Australia during this period, were known to videotape senior politicians and powerful people in compromising positions, which he later used to exploit, similarly to Jeffrey Epstein’s MO. This is not an uncommon practice in the trenches of manipulative evil.

Again I was not implying anything. Merely asking John Barnes for his opinion on this matter.

I actually personally respect Premier Dunstan immensely for the social and political progressiveness he brought to our country.

I also don’t need to be told: “All gay men are not pedophiles and that there is a difference between the two”. It’s 2022, I read, and I live in an enlightened modern world. I’m well across the paradigm of sex and sexuality.
 

Dell43

Debutant
Dec 31, 2020
94
101
AFL Club
Collingwood
Hello John Barnes,

Firstly. Thank you for opening yourself up in the very honest and forthright way you have in this forum. I am sure it’s extremely painful to continue to relive this filth over and over again.

I am deeply sorry for all that your family has been through over the last 4+ decades, but hopefully, your bravery in speaking up here is keeping the cases buoyant and the pressure on the police to hopefully bring these atrocities to licit convictions.

I have followed these cases for some time and have a fairly good understanding of most information that is publicly available. I would, however, like to ask you a few questions, if I my?

If you feel any of the questions are getting into dangerous or uncomfortable territories, legally or personally, please feel free to refrain. (But, my understanding is, you can’t defame nor need to suppress those who are already dead.)

  1. Firstly, do you believe BVE was involved in picking up 100s of young men, drugging them and sexually assaulting them over the 5-10+ year period? What approximate total number would your intel and/or instinct suggest?
  2. Do you believe BVE potentially, all of the time and/or some of the time, invited other associates to join the nonconsensual, unconscious rape of these victims?
  3. Whilst each incident most probably involved different co-conspirators, do you believe these attackers were more than just the transexual, friend housemates who it’s been reported, on occasion, provided BVE with a venue?
  4. Do you believe BVE was also delivering these unconscious young men to “higher level” co-conspirators ie: doctors, politicians, lawyers, professionals etc who also potentially shared a-joint, sadist lust for docile youths?
  5. Do you believe Alan was one of the 100s of hitchhikers coaxed into the car and drugged, but that he was accidentally killed during his attack? Or, do you feel it was premeditated for “his pack” to take his life? If so, do you have a theory why he was singled out not to be released?
  6. Do you believe Neil Muir was murdered by “his pack” (for want of a better word, but accepting each attack potentially involved different offenders) for knowing too much about Alan’s purposeful or accidental murder?
  7. Do you believe Peter and Mark were also coaxed and drugged, to be potentially passed around and then released, but also potentially accidentally died during "their" brutality? Or do you feel they were deliberately murdered by “their packs”?
  8. Do you feel the Kelvin case got so big “his pack” had no choice but to murder him?
  9. How many other male youths, do you feel, potentially also died in similar attacks, by these associates, that we simply don’t know about publicly? (Ie: Perhaps they were homeless or in an orphanage or their disappearances were never properly investigated?)
  10. Do you personally feel the late-Premier Don Dunstan may have been involved in interfering with the judicial process, given his well-known, close, personal association with several of those mentioned, many many times in the media, as suspected “pack” members and associates?
  11. Do you personally think Don Dunstan potentially partook in any of the rapes, given he too was gay (slash bi) and attracted to younger men? Do you feel compromising footage may exist of Dunstan, which then potentially forced his intervention? (This was very much the tactic employed in recent years by Jeffrey Epstein and his vile associates).
  12. What evidence do you feel the police still need to lay convictions for the murder of your brother and Peter, Mark and Neil?
  13. What message do you have for all the forum members here? What can we individually and collectively do to help you, and all the victim's families?
I also have a question for John Barnes or anyone else who may have something to share. Ken Thorsen (ret. head of Major Crime) suggested that multiple bodies had some form of rough surgery performed on them, I'm aware of the surgery on ML but was there any surgery performed on AB or RK?
 

Macka_321

Debutant
Jan 25, 2018
120
188
AFL Club
Adelaide
I also have a question for John Barnes or anyone else who may have something to share. Ken Thorsen (ret. head of Major Crime) suggested that multiple bodies had some form of rough surgery performed on them, I'm aware of the surgery on ML but was there any surgery performed on AB or RK?
That’s highly possible police would have held back some information as well that the public don’t know about.
 

bth18

Debutant
Oct 22, 2020
132
1,444
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
I also have a question for John Barnes or anyone else who may have something to share. Ken Thorsen (ret. head of Major Crime) suggested that multiple bodies had some form of rough surgery performed on them, I'm aware of the surgery on ML but was there any surgery performed on AB or RK?

could be referencing NM and PS being dissected maybe
 

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bth18

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Oct 22, 2020
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Well we know from police evidence that Neil had his genitals mutilated and Peter had similar cuts to his legs that Neil had, thats what I was referencing
 
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Zebo

Rookie
Sep 1, 2021
42
371
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Adelaide
We also know from reporting at the time and since (eg Debi Marshall) that no one was holding back on details of what was done to Alan Barnes. Pretty sure any 'rough surgery' would have been described.
 

Punk Rooster 16

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Jul 16, 2017
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Does anyone consider the possibility that RK was targeted and hunted down?
The others appear to have been seeking transport when taken, whereas it's fact that RK wasn't.
 

GreyCrow

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Does anyone consider the possibility that RK was targeted and hunted down?
The others appear to have been seeking transport when taken, whereas it's fact that RK wasn't.
Its possible

If we believe BVE - and to be fair the fish and chip shop on O'Connell was a very popular late night , Sunday night spot - then he may have seen RK previously and visited and visited the chippie hoping to see RK again - and maybe follow and have a narrower indication of where he lived.
 

Dell43

Debutant
Dec 31, 2020
94
101
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We also know from reporting at the time and since (eg Debi Marshall) that no one was holding back on details of what was done to Alan Barnes. Pretty sure any 'rough surgery' would have been described.
I agree and would assume with AB being the first of the murdered boys anything as unusual as some form of surgery being performed would of been reported. Most likely Ken Thorsen was referring to another case, however Mr. B did give evidence the BVE asked him if he wanted to “ hang around and watch him do some surgery on this guy”.
 

SquiffyRae

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Sep 28, 2020
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The thing with Mr B is you have to look at everything he says through the lens of someone trying to spill as many details as he can while weaving a narrative that paints him as an innocent bystander. At the subsequent hearings when they were trying to charge BvE with more murders, Mr B's own sister destroyed his version of events by mentioning that B had confided in her that he was present when Alan Barnes was murdered.

Mr B's story starts to make sense when you look at it from that angle. He's trying to rat out everyone that he knows was there and point police to other victims who had been mutilated but it's also a convenient out for him if he says the plan was "to perform surgery" when no surgery was performed. In that way, the original plan was to mutilate Alan but knowing there wasn't anything elaborate done on Alan, it makes it sound like the plan changed and B doesn't know why and therefore wasn't there at the crucial moment. His story makes no mention of Woodards cause in theory Woodards, the most likely butcher, doesn't come in until later when B's no longer in the picture. He doesn't know who the butcher is but he's trying to hint that these other murders are the same guys
 

SquiffyRae

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Sep 28, 2020
239
725
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Does anyone consider the possibility that RK was targeted and hunted down?
The others appear to have been seeking transport when taken, whereas it's fact that RK wasn't.
Now this we have to take Debi Marshall's word for since she wasn't allowed to record it but supposedly in her prison interviews with von Einem, he made a statement about having seen Kelvin wearing the dog collar earlier that day that contradicted the story he's been telling for over 35 years.

From witness accounts, it sounds like von Einem's car was full of his usual posse for his abduction gambit. Have a couple of the trans ladies in the car with him to pretend at first glance he's going to a party with hot women, get the victim in, give them drugged beer and do whatever. I can see how he might not have had success that day and noticed Kelvin at some point. Noting he was younger than what they usually went for, and thinking their usual story wouldn't work, they decide to instead change their plan and be extremely bold and simply grab him.

I think it's likely he was targeted in some form but I don't feel confident saying he was definitely targeted any longer than the afternoon he was abducted
 

fortunatecrow

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Oct 17, 2015
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The thing with Mr B is you have to look at everything he says through the lens of someone trying to spill as many details as he can while weaving a narrative that paints him as an innocent bystander. At the subsequent hearings when they were trying to charge BvE with more murders, Mr B's own sister destroyed his version of events by mentioning that B had confided in her that he was present when Alan Barnes was murdered.
Mr B has every incentive to down play his own involvement. The police quite possibly know it, but go along with his narrative because it helps them get at least one conviction. That makes sense to me.

Presumably BVE has to shut up because he can't say "Mr B was really there" without acknowledging his own involvement. But why does he not "tip the bucket" after he is found guilty?
 

SquiffyRae

Senior List
Sep 28, 2020
239
725
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Mr B has every incentive to down play his own involvement. The police quite possibly know it, but go along with his narrative because it helps them get at least one conviction. That makes sense to me.

Presumably BVE has to shut up because he can't say "Mr B was really there" without acknowledging his own involvement. But why does he not "tip the bucket" after he is found guilty?

From what I've seen, serial killers tend to fall into two broad categories - fame hogs and deniers. The fame hogs love it. They want the attention on them. They want the public to hear about all the horrifying stuff they've done. They relish it. These ones are so addicted to the notoriety that they will even claim responsibility for crimes they've never committed just for the attention they get from police.

Deniers on the other hand are completely the opposite. They will swear till their dying breath that they're completely innocent and are being victimised even in the face of overwhelming evidence of their guilt.

von Einem firmly fits the denier category. Right from the beginning his MO has been to deny everything. He doesn't know these people, he never saw these people, and he most certainly didn't abduct and murder them. Oh no, no, no. But that comes with one awkward problem when you're not a solo operator - the other people. It must be super tempting to take the nuclear option and decide that if I rot in jail then so do the rest of you. But von Einem's problem is he can't do that without first admitting to his own involvement.

He can't say that Mr. R, Woodards, Mr. B, Turtur, Brook, Firman, god knows who else was involved. Why? Because how would he know these people are involved if he wasn't also involved? Sure he could claim naturally as friends he may have overheard some things they said but he can't control their narratives. If he points the finger at the lot of them, there's nothing to stop one of the minnows like Mr. B or Turtur from thinking they can get away with it or get a lighter sentence if they fall over and give the police everything. Names, details, locations for forensic evidence. And every single one of them is gonna provide more evidence that von Einem was up to his neck in it.

As tempting as revenge must have been, von Einem has chosen to control what he knows he can control. The only thing he has full control over is his version of the narrative. His denials prevent police from finding people and things that would disprove his narrative. Hell he even maintains a degree of control over police as well since he knows all the details but he's not spilling a thing. For someone who knows he's gonna die in prison, he knows he's not got a lot of control over his life at all. So he gets his kicks by controlling other people. The police, families and the public who all want justice are all being controlled by a dude in his 70s who refuses to rat out his mates and has probably got a lot of kicks out of doing so for nearly 40 years
 

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