Unsolved The Family Murders

[Kurve]

The Who's Who List

• #2,647

Out of Sight - The Untold Story of Adelaide's Gay Hate Murders

The Cases of Forensic Pathologist Colin Manock

Use this thread below to lodge media, maps and photos for quick reference.

Unsolved - The Family Murders - MEDIA

This thread may be used to post the Family Murders media related content. To include press and gathered photographs from various sources. Please feel free to post but as this is a no discussion thread, comments will be deleted or moved at discretion. WHO'S WHO VICTIMS AB - Alan Barnes 16yo...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Kurve]

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What?

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The Parkside Body in the Freezer Case: Gino "Luigi" Gambardella (part 3)

Where is Gino "Luigi" Gambardella, a man linked to the notorious "Family"murders in Adelaide in the 1970's

hauntedadelaide.blogspot.com

Another interesting character associated with Gambardella and Stevenson is former High Court Judge, Lionel Murphy. It is alleged that the former Judge was present on the night of Stevenson’s death.

This claim first surfaced in 1991, when the Legal Services Commission contacted David Szach’s and stated that someone had come forward with information about the visit. A taxi driver is alleged to have dropped Mr Murphy and two other men off at the house in Parkside on the night of the murder.
Lionel Murphy died in 1986, after a long career which saw him serve as the attorney-general in the Whitlam Government. His long career ended in controversy when he charged with trying to pervert the course of Justice in 1985, and jailed. His conviction was swiftly over-turned and Judge Murphy returned as a working Judge, this led Bob Hawke to invoke an inquiry into the matter.

The case was reported in The Australian (newspaper) in December 2016 as “one of the greatest judicial scandals since federation was left with no conclusion, the commission being abandoned when it was revealed Murphy had been diagnosed with cancer and had only months to live” by reporter Kylar Loussikian.
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Sounds like BS to me. If these people were there, there'd be witnesses.

The article from Trove.

Murphy visit to death house alleged - The Canberra Times (ACT : 1926 - 1995) - 14 Apr 1991

ADELAIDE: A man jailed for Adelaide's so-called "body in the freezer" murder in 1979 ...

trove.nla.gov.au

 

[Kurve]

It does seem like too many steps and less than an obvious scenario but Kelvin could not have been killed in BVE's house as his mother didn't stay with relatives that weekend and BVE never took boys home when she was there.

Actually, the simpler explanation is believing the scientists.

I don't. Ross under Manock got it wrong, the fibres expert didn't. There's a hole in the story and BVE knew it but no jury was going to acquit regardless.

For what reason do you think they froze the body?

One last crack. This doesn't mean nobody else was involved because to be sure they were, initially to get Kelvin into the car.

No cause of death could be made for Kelvin, it may not have been as violent and bloody as most of us assumed. He could have been killed in BVEs house and probably was because the fibre evidence is trustworthy. IMO.

What isn't trustworthy IMO and frustrates everybody involved, not just investigators but those who have to prosecute the case against von Einem later, is the pathologist/s report - Ross under Manock who first estimate the time of death and get it (understandably?) wrong. Then they misinterpret the bruising at two to three weeks old and another at a couple of days. Neither of them had any training in histopathology (bruising) ten years later they still hadn't had any training and Keogh's conviction was overturned on a bruising issue.

What they also didn't see or perhaps couldn't have known, is that Kelvin's hair hadn't grown. There's been an interruption where time stood still, only one answer for that IMO. And it's not because they took him to the hairdressers. (Need autopsy report)

All these niggly little questions that most of us have, IMO might have an answer. Kelvin did die at BVEs house when his mother was away and likely the night before he went back to work. BVE was the last person to see him alive, he washed and redressed him in his own clothes that were scattered on his bedroom floor.

Then he was put into a freezer fully clothed, probably in the garage, maybe Mr R's and the post death processes were halted, locked in with the fibres and all the evidence that tells the story of where he was just before he died. When he's taken out of the freezer three and a bit weeks later in the fetal position he is exactly the same as he went in, as if he died just yesterday. He starts to thaw in BVEs boot? and the process of decay begins again where it left off.

It's so efficient, after two weeks out in the scrub nobody can tell the difference.

Maybe someone picked it up later the signs were there BVE had him in a freezer but nobody's going to call it. The pathologist's reports are in and they're stuck with that timeline, it can't be changed.

Why didn't they find the freezer through the investigation? They weren't looking for one.

BVE uses the hole in the story as his defence.

The five weeks being held also runs so well in the press it played a role in why the later murder charges against von Einem were dropped/permanent stay?

 

[PaulSubetro]

I don't. Ross under Manock got it wrong, the fibres expert didn't. There's a hole in the story and BVE knew it but no jury was going to acquit regardless.

So to be clear, you're saying your theory is;

- BVE is the killer
- Killed Kelvin in his mothers house
- Fibres expert got it right
- Mannock go it wrong because he's a buffoon and the body was frozen

One last crack. This doesn't mean nobody else was involved because to be sure they were, initially to get Kelvin into the car.

No cause of death could be made for Kelvin, it may not have been as violent and bloody as most of us assumed. He could have been killed in BVEs house and probably was because the fibre evidence is trustworthy. IMO.

What isn't trustworthy IMO and frustrates everybody involved, not just investigators but those who have to prosecute the case against von Einem later, is the pathologist/s report - Ross under Manock who first estimate the time of death and get it (understandably?) wrong. Then they misinterpret the bruising at two to three weeks old and another at a couple of days. Neither of them had any training in histopathology (bruising) ten years later they still hadn't had any training and Keogh's conviction was overturned on a bruising issue.

What they also didn't see or perhaps couldn't have known, is that Kelvin's hair hadn't grown. There's been an interruption where time stood still, only one answer for that IMO. And it's not because they took him to the hairdressers. (Need autopsy report)

All these niggly little questions that most of us have, IMO might have an answer. Kelvin did die at BVEs house when his mother was away and likely the night before he went back to work. BVE was the last person to see him alive, he washed and redressed him in his own clothes that were scattered on his bedroom floor.

Then he was put into a freezer fully clothed, probably in the garage, maybe Mr R's and the post death processes were halted, locked in with the fibres and all the evidence that tells the story of where he was just before he died. When he's taken out of the freezer three and a bit weeks later in the fetal position he is exactly the same as he went in, as if he died just yesterday. He starts to thaw in BVEs boot? and the process of decay begins again where it left off.

It's so efficient, after two weeks out in the scrub nobody can tell the difference.

Maybe someone picked it up later the signs were there BVE had him in a freezer but nobody's going to call it. The pathologist's reports are in and they're stuck with that timeline, it can't be changed.

Why didn't they find the freezer through the investigation? They weren't looking for one.

BVE uses the hole in the story as his defence.

The five weeks being held also runs so well in the press it played a role in why the later murder charges against von Einem were dropped/permanent stay?

Your theory is well considered and well thought out.

There's one immediate issue I can see - the guy who found Kelvin, he was in the same spot the day before and the body wasn't there. The question now is, can a body thaw out in 24 hours without it being detected that it has been frozen? The answer is probably here:

It turns out you can't just warm up a frozen body and proceed with the autopsy. It has to be defrosted slowly in a refrigeration unit at a steady thirty-eight degrees which can take up to week. Go any faster and the outside of the body will start to decompose while the inner organs are still frozen.

how long would a dead body take to thaw out? - Google Search

Here's another question;

The whole thing about BVE taking Kelvin to his home and dressing him is weird. It's a much more logical reasoning to do this all at the place of captivity. But some possible explanations are that BVE had become attached and wanted that extra time, or he had to dump the body early and go to work and there wasn't enough time to drive into the inner eastern suburbs. Don't forget that back then DNA profiling didn't exist.

So, a much similar question (or group of questions) that relates to logic and probability:

1. Why do they need a freezer at all? What upside is there to disguising time of death?
2. They didn't use one for Barnes, Muir or Langley. Why for Kelvin?
3. From past conversation I'm assuming you're saying this is how it links to Derrance. It's reasonably clear Szach was the killer. He went to jail. Gambardella skipped the country. How does this actually link in?



ps that wasn't your "last" crack. That was your first one. You've never actually said explicitly what you think happened. Just snippets of things.

 

[Kurve]

It turns out you can't just warm up a frozen body and proceed with the autopsy. It has to be defrosted slowly in a refrigeration unit at a steady thirty-eight degrees which can take up to week. Go any faster and the outside of the body will start to decompose while the inner organs are still frozen.

I have done the research on this as well.

He'd been defrosting since BVE turned the freezer off to get him out, its a slow even thaw. More thaw in the boot, still a bit rigid when he's left or long enough that rigor has set in. Easier to carry as well. Two weeks later any signs of an uneven decomposition rate that MIGHT have altered the report wouldn't be noticed IMO.

Also, we're still stuck in the early 80s right?

 

[BlueE]

Do you have a link to the full trial transcript please?

Interestingly I couldn't find the full transcript only newspaper reports of the expert at the trial. I believe the verdict was given in October 1980 and the SA Supreme Court transcripts were only addded until Sept 1980. I may be wrong with the dates and I was asking in case someone else has found it.

Supreme Court of South Australia

 

[Kurve]

1. Why do they need a freezer at all? What upside is there to disguising time of death?

Panic and paranoia they might already be being watched. BVE doesn't want to risk moving Kelvin until things calm down a bit. The three weeks Kelvin is in storage, the people who were there for the abduction, BVE and Mr R? carry on as normal.

I don't know if it links in any material way to Derrance's murder but to be sure, all involved in Kelvin's abduction would have known by the time Szach's trial finished that freezing a body makes time of death almost impossible to accurately nail.

 

[PaulSubetro]

I have done the research on this as well.

He'd been defrosting since BVE turned the freezer off to get him out, its a slow even thaw. More thaw in the boot, still a bit rigid when he's left or long enough that rigor has set in. Easier to carry as well. Two weeks later any signs of an uneven decomposition rate that MIGHT have altered the report wouldn't be noticed IMO.

Also, we're still stuck in the early 80s right?

We're starting to go way beyond the realm of probability. It's highly unlikely BVE knew he had to turn the freezer off a week before. It also needs to dethaw at 38 degrees.

You seem to be consistently attracted to long shots. I wonder if you pick 3x 100-1 long shots for the Melbourne Cup trifecta each year?

 

[Kurve]

We're starting to go way beyond the realm of probability. It's highly unlikely BVE knew he had to turn the freezer off a week before. It also needs to dethaw at 38 degrees.

You seem to be consistently attracted to long shots. I wonder if you pick 3x 100-1 long shots for the Melbourne Cup trifecta each year?

Maybe a bit petty?

Things didn't add up, now I think they might.

Bunkum he was even thinking about how long it would take to defrost Kelvin and it should be done evenly. It didn't matter. But he probably turned him over at least once or twice anyway.

Explains BVEs weird 'leaky esky' excuse for painting his boot as well, his mind went to a wettish icy melt spill.

The Sharon Mason case, she was found buried under pipes down deep where it's cold. There was talk of some uneven decomposition but nobody could make the call she'd been frozen at any time. Because they can't. These two cases aren't comparable but the point remains.

 

[BlueE]

Which trial? Millhouse? BVE 1984? BVE 1990?

I was talking about the trial for the murder of Neil Muir by Peter Leslie Millhouse which started around March 1980 and I believe the verdict was given in October 1980, which I've found very difficult to find (see above comment).

I have excepts from different newspaper reports of the trial leading with the expert comments of Robert Britten-Jones, surgeon, of North Adelaide. A full account would leave no doubt that this "surgery" was performed by an expert well above the surgical level of a GP.

In particular the disarticulation of the fingers at the joints without cutting the ligaments closely supporting the joints and dismemberment of the femur from the pelvis without scoring or cutting marks on the ball of the femur or the socket of the pelvis.

All the limbs were neatly dissected and not sawn, most of the muscle tissue was stripped from the bone, tattooed skin was removed, the organs including heart, lungs and intestines were removed and never recovered. Genital organs were dissected with the penis and one testicle removed.

Tattooed skin, dissected genital organs and severed fingers had been placed in a small plastic bag, which had been inserted into the torso where the stripped arms and legs were also packed.

The head was decapitated and placed in another plastic bag and connected to the bag containing the torso with a rope going through his neck and mouth.

April 3 1980 The Advertiser. "Skill used to cut body, court told".

Whoever dismembered a body found in the Port River in August would have needed a definite knowledge of human anatomy and skill in cutting human flesh, the Adelaide Magistrates Court was told yesterday.

Robert Britten-Jones, surgeon, of North Adelaide, said a number of sections of the body had been extremely neatly dissected. The disarticulation of the hands, which was a particularly difficult procedure because of the numerous ligaments in close proximity supporting the joints, indicated a definite knowledge of anatomy. It would have required skill in some degree to deal with such small joints in a compressed situation

Further anatomical knowledge had been indicated in the dissection of the hip joints. A noticeable feature in the dismemberment of the hip joints had been the absence of any score marks on the surface of the balls of the thigh bones. This was significant because it indicated a neatness, skill and anatomical knowledge in freeing the balls of the thigh bones from their sockets without producing score marks or cutting the surfaces.

netk.net.au/FamilyMurders/FamilyMurders3.asp

21 February 1980 The News. "Body in the bag"

Body in the bag man Neil Frederick Muir had been subjected to extensive mutilation, decapitation, skinning and dismembering, Adelaide Magistrates Court was told today. Most of the muscle tissue and organs had been removed and the arms and legs had been cut off at the sockets, the court heard.

The bags in which the body was contained were conveyed to the City mortuary where a pathologist comprised the portions to be Muir (sic). Tattooed skin, dissected genital organs and severed fingers had been placed in a small plastic bag, which had been inserted into the torso where the stripped arms and legs were also packed.

Mr Bishop said that because of the state of the body it had been difficult to ascertain the cause of death. However, anal and head injuries inflicted while Muir was alive had been detected.

31 August 1979 Chris Brice of The Advertiser reported “Wounds may link deaths”.

A pathologist’s preliminary report says there are tears in the anus of the mutilated and dismembered body of Neil Muir, 25. The report says the wounds were not serious enough to have caused Muir’s death, but were inflicted before he died.

Police continued a search along the banks of the Port River yesterday for a bag they believe may contain Muir’s internal organs including the heart, lungs and intestines. Police hope enough flesh and tissue were left on the body for the pathologist to be able to determine the cause of death and if it was caused by drugs.

 

[Kurve]

I was talking about the trial for the murder of Neil Muir by Peter Leslie Millhouse which started around March 1980 and I believe the verdict was given in October 1980, which I've found very difficult to find (see above comment).

I have excepts from different newspaper reports of the trial leading with the expert comments of Robert Britten-Jones, surgeon, of North Adelaide. A full account would leave no doubt that this "surgery" was performed by an expert well above the surgical level of a GP.

In particular the disarticulation of the fingers at the joints without cutting the ligaments closely supporting the joints and dismemberment of the femur from the pelvis without scoring or cutting marks on the ball of the femur or the socket of the pelvis.

All the limbs were neatly dissected and not sawn, most of the muscle tissue was stripped from the bone, tattooed skin was removed, the organs including heart, lungs and intestines were removed and never recovered. Genital organs were dissected with the penis and one testicle removed.

Tattooed skin, dissected genital organs and severed fingers had been placed in a small plastic bag, which had been inserted into the torso where the stripped arms and legs were also packed.

The head was decapitated and placed in another plastic bag and connected to the bag containing the torso with a rope going through his neck and mouth.

April 3 1980 The Advertiser. "Skill used to cut body, court told".

Whoever dismembered a body found in the Port River in August would have needed a definite knowledge of human anatomy and skill in cutting human flesh, the Adelaide Magistrates Court was told yesterday.

Robert Britten-Jones, surgeon, of North Adelaide, said a number of sections of the body had been extremely neatly dissected. The disarticulation of the hands, which was a particularly difficult procedure because of the numerous ligaments in close proximity supporting the joints, indicated a definite knowledge of anatomy. It would have required skill in some degree to deal with such small joints in a compressed situation

Further anatomical knowledge had been indicated in the dissection of the hip joints. A noticeable feature in the dismemberment of the hip joints had been the absence of any score marks on the surface of the balls of the thigh bones. This was significant because it indicated a neatness, skill and anatomical knowledge in freeing the balls of the thigh bones from their sockets without producing score marks or cutting the surfaces.

netk.net.au/FamilyMurders/FamilyMurders3.asp

21 February 1980 The News. "Body in the bag"

Body in the bag man Neil Frederick Muir had been subjected to extensive mutilation, decapitation, skinning and dismembering, Adelaide Magistrates Court was told today. Most of the muscle tissue and organs had been removed and the arms and legs had been cut off at the sockets, the court heard.

The bags in which the body was contained were conveyed to the City mortuary where a pathologist comprised the portions to be Muir (sic). Tattooed skin, dissected genital organs and severed fingers had been placed in a small plastic bag, which had been inserted into the torso where the stripped arms and legs were also packed.

Mr Bishop said that because of the state of the body it had been difficult to ascertain the cause of death. However, anal and head injuries inflicted while Muir was alive had been detected.

31 August 1979 Chris Brice of The Advertiser reported “Wounds may link deaths”.

A pathologist’s preliminary report says there are tears in the anus of the mutilated and dismembered body of Neil Muir, 25. The report says the wounds were not serious enough to have caused Muir’s death, but were inflicted before he died.

Police continued a search along the banks of the Port River yesterday for a bag they believe may contain Muir’s internal organs including the heart, lungs and intestines. Police hope enough flesh and tissue were left on the body for the pathologist to be able to determine the cause of death and if it was caused by drugs.

A chef in Canada went to a bar where he picked a guy up and they drank all night, went back to the chef's motel where they had sex.

Next morning the guy was dead. The chef had removed one of his eyes, genitals and all his internal organs. None of them were ever recovered and nobody heard a thing in this motel.

He was also cut up into 8 pieces and placed into the bath with his head turned towards the door.

All this was achieved with one knife.

Gordon Ramsey could do it .... and probably would he's so nasty.

 

[PaulSubetro]

I was talking about the trial for the murder of Neil Muir by Peter Leslie Millhouse

I'm going to give Young Blood another read. The book is consistent with the court cases. I'll let you know what it says once I read it.

 

[BlueE]

A chef in Canada went to a bar where he picked a guy up and they drank all night, went back to the chef's motel where they had sex.

Next morning the guy was dead. The chef had removed one of his eyes, genitals and all his internal organs. None of them were ever recovered and nobody heard a thing in this motel.

He was also cut up into 8 pieces and placed into the bath with his head turned towards the door.

All this was achieved with one knife.

Gordon Ramsey could do it .... and probably would he's so nasty.

Where is the expert report of the dissections of the fingers and dismemberment of the ball of the femur from the socket of the pelvis without the knife cutting any bone and the disarticulation of all the fingers from the hand without disturbing the ligaments?

This is next level surgical skill and the medical evidence from the trial in Canada would need to be compared before you can make flippant comments dismissing an expert surgeon's evidence at Neil Muir's trial.

 

[Kurve]

Where is the expert report of the dissections of the fingers and dismemberment of the ball of the femur from the socket of the pelvis without the knife cutting any bone and the disarticulation of all the fingers from the hand without disturbing the ligaments?

This is next level surgical skill and the medical evidence from the trial in Canada would need to be compared before you can make flippant comments dismissing an expert surgeon's evidence at Neil Muir's trial.

Was he being paid by the defence for his expert evidence? With the aim of discrediting the prosecution's evidence?

Was he asked if an experienced chef or boner could achieve the same thing?

How about a chiropractor? 'Disarticulation' is ringing a bell.

 

[Kurve]

here's one immediate issue I can see - the guy who found Kelvin, he was in the same spot the day before and the body wasn't there. The question now is, can a body thaw out in 24 hours without it being detected that it has been frozen? The answer is probably here:

The geologist who eventually found Kelvin was there on the 10th and didn't see him. Kelvin wasn't found until the 24th. He was in the scrub for two weeks.

 

[Bits]

Who said that DStD cut Richard’s hair? Trying to remember where that bit of info came from. Was it Turtur? I’ll have to listen to that podcast again.

And while the freezer is a reasonable theory, given the recent Derrance case wouldnt the investigators and pathologists be on red alert to that possibility?

Also I’d like to think that if there was even a remote possibility that Richard was killed soon after being taken, this would have been made more widely known, especially to the Kelvins. I can’t imagine anyone, no matter how incompetent, allowing that possibility to slide. And anyone with a smidgen of compassion wouldn’t have let Rob and Betteanne Kelvin believe that their son was kept alive and tortured for weeks if there was a viable alternative.

 

[Bits]

The geologist who eventually found Kelvin was there on the 10th and didn't see him. Kelvin wasn't found until the 24th. He was in the scrub for two weeks.

Correct. The proposed dump date of 10th was calculated based on the growth of maggots found on the body. He was there for around 2 weeks and this witness confirms the earliest possible date.

 

[Kurve]

And while the freezer is a reasonable theory, given the recent Derrance case wouldnt the investigators and pathologists be on red alert to that possibility?

You would think so but where Derrence was found in the freezer it was clear what happened and the pathologist went from there. No signs of Kelvin having been in a freezer when he was found. It was several years later, Ross did the autopsy is my understanding, Monock overseeing.

I understand what I've said disrupts what we thought we all knew as a fact, me included but I think the reasons behind the thinking might hold up. It's also more in line with the length of time the other boys were kept as well.

Also I’d like to think that if there was even a remote possibility that Richard was killed soon after being taken, this would have been made more widely known, especially to the Kelvins.

Bits, I suspect after BVE was convicted they would have been told.

 

[Bits]

The detail about DStD cutting Richard’s hair was in Trevor Peters’ diary. It is detailed in this article:

No Cookies | The Advertiser

No Cookies

www.adelaidenow.com.au

 

[Kurve]

The detail about DStD cutting Richard’s hair was in Trevor Peters’ diary. It is detailed in this article:

No Cookies | The Advertiser

No Cookies

www.adelaidenow.com.au

I hope when Debi Marshall's book comes out, all the relevant diary entries are in there. The police seemed to take if not all, at least some of it seriously enough to generate what they felt were new leads.

Denis St Denis is out of the way, maybe once Mr. R pops off BVE might be a bit more inclined to talk.

 

[Bits]

I hope when Debi Marshall's book comes out, the diary entries are in there. The police seemed to take if not all, at least some of it seriously enough to generate what they felt were new leads.

Denis St Denis is out of the way, maybe once Mr. R pops off BVE might be a bit more inclined to talk.

I think that there was more than enough detail in the diary entries that was accurate (and that confirmed information that had not yet been made public) to convince police that the other information in there was worth taking seriously.

Peters was clearly right in the middle of the friendship group - haircuts by DStD, comfortable enough in their company to jump up and see what BVE and DStD were giggling about, visiting DStD in hospital before he died, and living next to the trans women.

These are the cottages on Shipsters Rd where Peters and the trans women lived. They really are tiny as you can see by comparing with the car parked in front. They are no gaps between them and the doors are right next to each other in some cases. The mysterious Sarah Novak who gave evidence in court lived at number 46 which is the one with all the wood panels. I don’t believe Peters’ address is known to us yet but even if it wasn’t right next door, it was only a few steps away.



Having contemporaneous diary entries is invaluable. Peters wrote them for himself as a lifelong habit. There is no reason to think that they weren’t just his way of recording his daily activities. There is no reason to think that he made up any of the information. If he wrote that a woman (who he named) told him that DStD cut Richard’s hair, then I believe that the woman did tell him that. Whether she was lying or not is a different matter.

It is so frustrating that more of the contents haven’t been released, even with chunks redacted.

I don’t think BVE will ever talk. He has no reason to. The government will find ways to keep him locked up. The public outcry if they let him out would be enormous. He will die in prison with his secrets, denying his guilt to the end just like Milat.

 

[PaulSubetro]

I was talking about the trial for the murder of Neil Muir by Peter Leslie Millhouse

I'm going to give Young Blood another read. The book is consistent with the court cases. I'll let you know what it says once I read it.

Looks like there's inconsistent views on the skill level required to cut up the bodies;

Starting at the bottom of page 60, Young Blood by Bob O'Brien

---
There was a lack of agreement between the professionals as to whether or not the mutilation was done with some professional knowledge and skill. Ray Dowd worked on the advice that there was some skill involved. He said that the semi-professional nature of some of the cuts suggested that the killer could be a person with a medical or para-medical background or in a job where knowledge of the joints and cuts could be learned. The difficulty was that on 30 Aug 1979, the Chief Meat Inspector for the abattoirs gave a statement. He had expert knowledge about boning and skinning of animals. He believed the skinning was not consistent with a person having any expertise in this area. It was done in a rough manner. He also observed roughness in the area of the legs where the muscular tissue was removed. Boning skills were not present. He said that a saw was used on the bone while a knife was used on the flesh. This meant that the person who butchered Neil Muir was not likely to be an employee of an abattoir.

On page 70, it says this;

At the doctor's trial, the prosecutor argued that the dissection of Muir had to have been done by someone who had medical training and knowledge of anatomy. Dr Robert Britten-Jones gave this evidence but couldn't say if the person who did the dissection was a doctor.

---

So there's definitely some doubt and conflicting views. I think the answer is somewhere in between. I think Woodards took an opportunity to try his hand at surgery (I believe he's a GP but can't be sure).

And although Millhouse says he doesn't do surgery, he does have a degree in GP and surgery. Maybe that's standard or common?

 

[PaulSubetro]

Yet he didnt notify the police he knew him and had very recent contact with him - I ask why not?

Never said smoking gun. I agree its circumstantial . Just an interesting sidelight. Most homes might have had 1 or the other - it would be rarer for homes to have both. (from memory)


Alcoholic or not he drank more than people expected of him. Why?

Why did he feel the need for advice from a lawyer?

Yep, one report said the amount of cutting etc may have led to a slaughterhouse look. I kinda disagree - once dead blood doesnt jet , it pools. If they had a sink they could have drained off most.

The murders continued and the placement and mutilations were different to the 1st 2.

Again what changed? The charging of Millhouse and Gambardella going to Italy are the only 2 changes that I can see. So no I dont discount Millhouse for involvement in the 1st two murders and mutilations

I've already responded to this previously but I'm reading Young Blood again and it may further explain my thoughts;

- There is a strong theory that Millhouse was supplying drugs to patients. Probably from the Derrance Stevenson playbook - I supply you with drugs, you sleep with me.
- This is potentially why he was being evasive
- They couldn't find Muir's blood anywhere in his house. It is thought the blood is more likely from a drug addict shooting up.
- And it wasn't Millhouse who cleaned the blood - it was his cleaner. You don't get your house cleaner to clean up your murder scene
- The "rope" in question was clothes line cord. Very common. Millhouse's clothes line's cord had been replaced but it wasn't able to be determined when it was replaced. He was a renter so could have easily been prior to him moving in.

There's not only no physical evidence whatsoever, the circumstantial evidence is flimsy at best. The judge lectured the jury for two hours before they retired to make a decision with regards to the evidence not stacking up.

Just because he's been found not guilty at trial, doesn't necessarily mean he's not guilty. But when you look at the evidence, along with not having an association with BVE and leaving Adelaide after the second murder, it's highly unlikely he was involved.

 

[PaulSubetro]

Also noticed in Young Blood:

Barnes was accused of raping a female.

 

[Bits]

I took some screen shots from the Debi Marshall show. The white page was on screen for only a second and is blurry. It might be readable if someone has the time and patience to work on it.

Trevor Peters:

 

[Kurve]

It is so frustrating that more of the contents haven’t been released, even with chunks redacted.

Are Peters diaries the first time Denis St Denis has ever come up in relation to the murders?