Unsolved The Family Murders

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JezMez

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Sep 15, 2020
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Your comments suggest you might have actually met the guy, is that correct or did I misinterpret?
Never met him or anyone else associated with The Family or victims of. Just read a lot of stuff and once you look into the case closely you realise the typical "The Family are all high society so they're protected by the establishment" commentary is a misrepresentation. There is an element of truth, but it misses the true crux of who and what The Family were. Talk to most Adelaidians and they firmly believe it's all high society and they can't be talked out of it. People believe what they want to believe I guess.

Interestingly the new book (TFMB) claims Derrance was murdered by The Family in some mafioso style hit to warn the rest of The Family that they couldn't leave. This theory is simply laughable but some people like to believe it because it's "more fascinating". Remove all the fairy tales about mafioso style hits, people being silenced, 100s of more dead bodies, The Family being entrenched in the halls of Adelaide power etc etc and what's left is a fascinating story. A fascinating but unthinkable and horrible story. This story doesn't need all those fairy tale gimmicks.
 
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AdelaideGT

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Sep 1, 2020
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Mother Goose apparently walked like a goose, it's in the book. Also mentioned in this by Serkan Ozturk 2018.

He was given the nickname Mother Goose for his distinctive gait and the way that he walked as he moved around South Australia’s capital city. Some sections of the media meanwhile referred to him as “a prominent member of Adelaide’s 1980s gay scene”.
In the 80s, I thought he had gotten that nickname as he 'told bedtime stories to kids'. But I didn't know him, just knew of him.

Mr B - A child prostitute with a drug problem
I find myself wondering if this was a blonde known as 'Little B' (as there was an older man with the same name known as 'Big B'). I thought of him as 'gay for pay' and he was involved with a few other drug users.

Dr X - A doctor who we are yet to know his identity
What was this doctor supposed to have done?

I recall in the early 80s, there was an older Doctor, practicing in Goodwood, who many of the drag queens in town saw as an easy mark to get prescriptions of sedatives. They were right. I went to him once, mumbled something about sleeping problems and had a prescription for serepax in quick time. I don't think he was gay - just a bit of a pushover.
 

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JezMez

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I find myself wondering if this was a blonde known as 'Little B' (as there was an older man with the same name known as 'Big B'). I thought of him as 'gay for pay' and he was involved with a few other drug users.
How old is Little B and do you know his real name?


Mr B was born around 1959 making him around 20 when AB was murdered and around 61 today. He was from the outer northern suburbs of Adelaide. He's lived at times in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane (where he was allegedly a bus driver). Within years of The Family murders he found himself addicted to heroin.


What was this doctor supposed to have done?
We don't know but....


TFMB mentions four doctors; SGW, Millhouse, Dr Robert (gay, x-dresser, was BVE main supplier, never a suspect), and a 4th guy who was mates with Mr R and passed his med exam with Dr Robert. He was also allegedly part of the alleged group that met through Derrance and morphed into The Family.


Then there's a part of a book that talks about a child prostitute named Colin who in the late 80s had clientele that included Mr R and some other guy who was allegedly in The Family and had access to locked rooms in a hospital. I assume this is the same Dr.


I call him Dr X because we don't know who he is. In fact, no one here has ever heard of another doctor being involved.


TFMB speculates that the surgery on Muir was so skilled it had to be done by an actual surgeon and that due to time constraints between Neil being murdered and dumped that they had to have access to proper lighting, benches and materials.

So the book is implying that Dr X is the guy who cut up the bodies.

This theory is not without its problems;

1. The police have made a statement that there are 3 main suspects; The businessman (Mr R), a doctor, and a male prostitute (Mr B). If Dr X is the person who cut up the bodies then surely he has to be the "doctor suspect". But SGW was tight with this group. He and RDB were investigated to drug raping young men in the late 70s. There's no mention of two doctors. I'm still very confident the "doctor suspect" is SGW. So why is Dr X not a "main suspect"? All the TS's and TV's are higher up the police pecking order.

2. The evidence that the bodies had to be cut up by at expert surgeon isn't unchallenged. Other experts think a GP or butcher could have done it.

So Dr X is a new mystery. He has to be in those court papers or whatever it was the authors of TFMB read.


So who is he? Is he the cutter? Is he the "doctor suspect"? Or was he an early suspect that fell by the wayside once the picture became clearer?
 

Kurve

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Wasn't Millhouse implicated as the surgeon? So much so he was asked to come in and provide a statement?

Blood in his bathroom etc
He ended up prosecuted for Neil Muir's murder, they clearly had a sex for drugs/money relationship. Small amounts of blood in the bathroom, nothing that could be tested. The drains and pipes were also clear.

From the ebook, Muir had a leg wound which was covered by a bandaid then another laid on the top which is information I hadn't seen before. Fibres from Millhouse's persian carpet were found on the bandaid along with white and brown hairs. From the ebook it's thought the hairs were von Einem's.

It seems absurd to me that anybody would go to the lengths they did of cutting Neil Muir up and leaving or sticking his bandaid back on? If it wasn't so ghastly it would be laughable.

New info out of the ebook is also that pine needles were found with Muir's remains. Like - let's just cut him up like deranged psychos, doing intricate hand surgery at the same time then scrape all the bits up that fell on the floor and not worry about the pine needles that are getting stuck all over it.

The ebook presents a pretty good prosecution against Millhouse and real lucky not to have been convicted. Just my opinion but I still don't think Millhouse did it.
 

Kurve

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Modern science might now be able to pinpoint the area the tree grew that shed the pine needles found with Muir's remains. Certainly they would be able to tell the genus of the pine and probably how old it was at the time. If they still have them.

Someone from the university might offer to have a go at it.
 

HK_Hawk

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He ended up prosecuted for Neil Muir's murder, they clearly had a sex for drugs/money relationship. Small amounts of blood in the bathroom, nothing that could be tested. The drains and pipes were also clear.

From the ebook, Muir had a leg wound which was covered by a bandaid then another laid on the top which is information I hadn't seen before. Fibres from Millhouse's persian carpet were found on the bandaid along with white and brown hairs. From the ebook it's thought the hairs were von Einem's.

It seems absurd to me that anybody would go to the lengths they did of cutting Neil Muir up and leaving or sticking his bandaid back on? If it wasn't so ghastly it would be laughable.

New info out of the ebook is also that pine needles were found with Muir's remains. Like - let's just cut him up like deranged psychos, doing intricate hand surgery at the same time then scrape all the bits up that fell on the floor and not worry about the pine needles that are getting stuck all over it.

The ebook presents a pretty good prosecution against Millhouse and real lucky not to have been convicted. Just my opinion but I still don't think Millhouse did it.
Yeah, the book did present a pretty good case against Millhouse, but it does seem somewhat at odds and detached from the other Family murders. He may have been involved with just that one and the near escape was enough to get him the hell out of whatever he found himself involved with?.. but, I'm not fully convinced. It just doesn't seem to gel with the bigger picture.

The "vacuuming" of the drains and pipes was quite suspicious, along with the copious amounts of cleaning that had been done between the murder and the police search of the house (without the involvement of his regular house cleaner).

It seemed very odd that the judge came up with the direction to ignore the fiber evidence because in his opinion, the bags containing the body had a tear in them and thus the bandaid could have drifted in from the river... I mean, really? That was just an incredibly bizarre thought process and/or stupidity.

Regarding the pine needles, perhaps they came in to contact while the body was being taken to the place of surgery prior to dismemberment? I can only guess, the killer(s) were perhaps ignorant of what the presence of some pine needles could tell authorities, and were more focused on the cutting up?
 

JezMez

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He ended up charged with Neil Muir's murder, they clearly had a sex for drugs/money relationship. Small amounts of blood in the bathroom, nothing that could be tested. The drains and pipes were also clear.



From the ebook, Muir had a leg wound which was covered by a bandaid then another laid on the top which is information I hadn't seen before. Fibres from Millhouse's persian carpet were found on the bandaid along with white and brown hairs. From the ebook it's thought the hairs were von Einem's.



It seems absurd to me that anybody would go to the lengths they did of cutting Neil Muir up and leaving or sticking his bandaid back on? If it wasn't so ghastly it would be laughable.



New info out of the ebook is also that pine needles were found with Muir's remains. Like - let's just cut him up like deranged psychos, doing intricate hand surgery at the same time then scrape all the bits up that fell on the floor and not worry about the pine needles that are getting stuck all over it.



The ebook presents a pretty good prosecution against Millhouse and real lucky not to have been convicted. Just my opinion but I still don't think Millhouse did it.


The ebook theory is this;



NM was last seen with Millhouse at about 3pm. NM was discovered the next morning cut up and packaged like an RSL meat tray. Someone testified that to do this in a full operating theatre (light, metal table, support crew etc) would take a specialist surgeon with years of experience 4 hours. Add to this, the cuts and dissection were work of a pro.

There was evidence NM had been at Millhouse's - the bandaid with the fibre. ** to explain Kurve's doubt about the bandaid - it can be explained in that NM was on Millhouse's rug playing twister and it half or full ripped off and NM reapplied it himself explain how fibres got underneath.

So the theory goes; For everything to work time wise and skillwise, NM goes back to Millhouses to have sex. BVE is there and gets involved and does the bottle up the cornhole trick in the bath and NM dies. BVE calls his mate Dr X (Millhouse and SGW aren't skilled enough to do the surgery) and they take NM somewhere and cut him up. Millhouse stays at home and cleans up. So Millhouse not part of The Family but was part of NM's murder through happenstance and The Family did the rest (cutting him up etc)

A sound theory, but again not without its problems;

1. Were Millhouse and BVE tight enough to have him over when NM was there? Apart from being gay, both knowing NM, what's the connection? NM wasn't involved in picking young men with BVE, nor was Millhouse.

2. Cleaning the drain. In the hundreds of murder crime docos Ive watched, I've yet to set a case where the killer got out his plumbing tools and cleaned all the blood out of the drain.

3. NM dies in the bath with a bottle of bubbly up his ass. BVE calls his doctor mate. Why would the doctor want to get involved in cleaning up Millhouse's mess? I doubt he's going to want to have sex with a dead junkie.

Another theory;

1. NM goes back to Millhouse's. They play twister on the rug. NM's bandaid comes off during. He picks it up off the rug and re-applies it.

2. NM gets his fix and leaves. He goes to O'Connell St to get a bus. BVE is doing his nightly trawl of his beat and sees NM and picks him up. He drugs him and takes him to his doctor mates.

The problem with this theory;

1. Would Mr R be interest in a washed up 25 year old junkie?
2. How do you explain the discrepancies in Millhouse's statements?



All the theories are ok, but at the same time they all have flaws.
 

HK_Hawk

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The ebook theory is this;



NM was last seen with Millhouse at about 3pm. NM was discovered the next morning cut up and packaged like an RSL meat tray. Someone testified that to do this in a full operating theatre (light, metal table, support crew etc) would take a specialist surgeon with years of experience 4 hours. Add to this, the cuts and dissection were work of a pro.

There was evidence NM had been at Millhouse's - the bandaid with the fibre. ** to explain Kurve's doubt about the bandaid - it can be explained in that NM was on Millhouse's rug playing twister and it half or full ripped off and NM reapplied it himself explain how fibres got underneath.

So the theory goes; For everything to work time wise and skillwise, NM goes back to Millhouses to have sex. BVE is there and gets involved and does the bottle up the cornhole trick in the bath and NM dies. BVE calls his mate Dr X (Millhouse and SGW aren't skilled enough to do the surgery) and they take NM somewhere and cut him up. Millhouse stays at home and cleans up. So Millhouse not part of The Family but was part of NM's murder through happenstance and The Family did the rest (cutting him up etc)

A sound theory, but again not without its problems;


1. Were Millhouse and BVE tight enough to have him over when NM was there? Apart from being gay, both knowing NM, what's the connection? NM wasn't involved in picking young men with BVE, nor was Millhouse.

2. Cleaning the drain. In the hundreds of murder crime docos Ive watched, I've yet to set a case where the killer got out his plumbing tools and cleaned all the blood out of the drain.

3. NM dies in the bath with a bottle of bubbly up his ass. BVE calls his doctor mate. Why would the doctor want to get involved in cleaning up Millhouse's mess? I doubt he's going to want to have sex with a dead junkie.

Another theory;

1. NM goes back to Millhouse's. They play twister on the rug. NM's bandaid comes off during. He picks it up off the rug and re-applies it.

2. NM gets his fix and leaves. He goes to O'Connell St to get a bus. BVE is doing his nightly trawl of his beat and sees NM and picks him up. He drugs him and takes him to his doctor mates.

The problem with this theory;

1. Would Mr R be interest in a washed up 25 year old junkie?
2. How do you explain the discrepancies in Millhouse's statements?



All the theories are ok, but at the same time they all have flaws.
It is a sound theory indeed.

I have also struggled to connect Vonnie and Millie; besides both knowing NM and having a penchant for drugging, raping and inserting tapered objects in boys' backsides. As niche as that insertion fetish seems, I do wonder if some of the alleged hard porn coming in through the inner circle in those early days featured this particular fetish and thus where these two got the taste for it? There was mention of some rougher porn coming in from Europe. They may well have known each other but there is nothing really recorded to suggest they hung out. This lack of social connection makes it difficult to explain how Vonnie would end up at Millie's house in those circumstances... did Vonnie pick up NM after he staggered out of the club, and take him to Millie's place on NM's insistence (confident he could score what he wanted there, which Vonnie may not have had with him at the time)?

It does also seem odd that we suddenly see this type of surgical element, which wasn't apparent with AB. It does suggest the involvement of a new member(s) with the relevant taste and ability for it. That said, I think it is still open to conjecture as to whether Millie would have the skill/ability to perform the surgery. The evidence seemed inconclusive and a bit ambiguous. If Millie had the ability it would help negate your third concern about why a third party surgeon would get involved with clean up. Perhaps Millie and Vonnie worked together on that grossly task without any further involvement from others? That said, I'm not convinced Millie has the stomach or taste for that?
 

Kurve

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Yeah, the book did present a pretty good case against Millhouse, but it does seem somewhat at odds and detached from the other Family murders. He may have been involved with just that one and the near escape was enough to get him the hell out of whatever he found himself involved with?.. but, I'm not fully convinced. It just doesn't seem to gel with the bigger picture.

The "vacuuming" of the drains and pipes was quite suspicious, along with the copious amounts of cleaning that had been done between the murder and the police search of the house (without the involvement of his regular house cleaner).

It seemed very odd that the judge came up with the direction to ignore the fiber evidence because in his opinion, the bags containing the body had a tear in them and thus the bandaid could have drifted in from the river... I mean, really? That was just an incredibly bizarre thought process and/or stupidity.

Regarding the pine needles, perhaps they came in to contact while the body was being taken to the place of surgery prior to dismemberment? I can only guess, the killer(s) were perhaps ignorant of what the presence of some pine needles could tell authorities, and were more focused on the cutting up?
If we're reading a prosecution's story of which there wasn't a real lot of substance tbh, of course it's going to look bad for Millhouse. No doubt Muir was there, no doubt Millhouse went into overdrive cleaning up because bathrooms are where blood evidence is going to be found in anybody's house more so if you play fetishistic sex games in the tub. Millhouse knows the cops are coming for him whether he did it or not and he knows he's in a really bad position.

Cant cope, starts drinking, makes mistakes, ends up in psych ward.

Nobody disappears while Millhouse is under a scope and prosecuted at trial, after he's found not guilty and two years to the day from Muir's murder, Peter Stogneff goes missing and is found similarly dissected. It wasn't Millhouse.

Very, very nasty and although no guarantees Stogneff would have been found, there was a message in it imo.
 

JezMez

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Perhaps Millie and Vonnie worked together on that grossly task without any further involvement from others?
I'm personally ruling this out on the grounds of lack of blood at Millie's. There's no amount of cleaning that would hide that amount of blood.

For this reason, up until now I was pretty confident Millie was not involved. Muir had to have been dissected somewhere else. Did he die at Millie's and BVE moved him somewhere else to cut him up? Or did he leave Millie's alive and then cross paths with BVE?

Also worth some though;

Mr B claimed when he left BVE and Mr R with a comatose AB that BVE asked him, "we're going to do some surgery on this guy, want to come?".

Mr B's big picture info is good but he could never be trusted with the finer details. What if this is what BVE said? Why would he say it? Why would he know he's going to perform some surgery? When he called Mr R from the phone box, did he also call Dr X? Or was it SGW?
 

HK_Hawk

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If we're reading a prosecution's story of which there wasn't a real lot of substance tbh, of course it's going to look bad for Millhouse. No doubt Muir was there, no doubt Millhouse went into overdrive cleaning up because bathrooms are where blood evidence is going to be found in anybody's house more so if you play fetishistic sex games in the tub. Millhouse knows the cops are coming for him whether he did it or not and he knows he's in a really bad position.

Cant cope, starts drinking, makes mistakes, ends up in psych ward.

Nobody disappears while Millhouse is under a scope and prosecuted at trial, after he's found not guilty and two years to the day from Muir's murder, Peter Stogneff goes missing and is found similarly dissected. It wasn't Millhouse.

Very, very nasty and although no guarantees Stogneff would have been found, there was a message in it imo.
A message to whom, I wonder?
Scouts? Street boys? Fellow predators? Law? Society? A bit of all?
 

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HK_Hawk

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I'm personally ruling this out on the grounds of lack of blood at Millie's. There's no amount of cleaning that would hide that amount of blood.

For this reason, up until now I was pretty confident Millie was not involved. Muir had to have been dissected somewhere else. Did he die at Millie's and BVE moved him somewhere else to cut him up? Or did he leave Millie's alive and then cross paths with BVE?

Also worth some though;

Mr B claimed when he left BVE and Mr R with a comatose AB that BVE asked him, "we're going to do some surgery on this guy, want to come?".

Mr B's big picture info is good but he could never be trusted with the finer details. What if this is what BVE said? Why would he say it? Why would he know he's going to perform some surgery? When he called Mr R from the phone box, did he also call Dr X? Or was it SGW?
I tend to agree that NM was likely cut and diced elsewhere. I'm not sure that necessarily means a further party had to be involved. The question is, did Millie (or Vonnie) have access to a convenient and appropriate location for the deed? If they did, then it is conceivable they managed the deed without further involvement from others. Now, that said, I doubt this was the case and it seems logical that a further party (and quite likely one with surgical ability) was involved. I just don't think Millie had the fortitude to manage such a deed, and his drinking binges seem to support that.

I'm not so sure on the second theory you put forward about leaving Millie's and running into Vonnie later. Firstly, I'm not sure timing would allow it. Secondly, if NM had just scored, how motivated is he to jump into a car with Vonnie on the lure of more candy? Unless he was so out of it, Vonnie was able to bundle him into the car like a good Samaritan... but then there were no sightings of such an event.

Good pick up on Mr B's claims about the proposed "surgery". That does put a slicer in the picture from the start. I'm assuming he didn't always get involved.
 

Bits

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The book says this about Millhouse. Doesn’t seem like he’s averse to a spot of violence or the use of tools.

“Dr Millhouse frequently purchased pornographic magazines, one particular magazine found in his possession being a very violent and aggressive under the counter issue entitled ‘Two Bulls in Debauchery’.
This seemed to typify a noted shift in the doctor’s sexual interests and approach from allegedly submissive to dominating by 1979. By the late 70’s the doctor had ‘kinked’ even further, attempting to introduce metal sex instruments for use during his sexual encounters.”

Excerpt from
The Family Murders
Greg McInerny & Wendy Roles
This material may be protected by copyright.
 

HK_Hawk

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I would view it differently

why do you drink? - I drink to forget

ie the drinking may be a sedative while operating and a duller in those dark moments

*speculation on a point
Yeah, you could be right. I was naively thinking that murder and dismemberment was far removed from hard core sex with the use of metal objects, pi$$ing and $hitting on people... however, it is about power, isn't it!
 

JezMez

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I tend to agree that NM was likely cut and diced elsewhere. I'm not sure that necessarily means a further party had to be involved. The question is, did Millie (or Vonnie) have access to a convenient and appropriate location for the deed? If they did, then it is conceivable they managed the deed without further involvement from others.
I don't think Millie was ever part of The Family. I think at most me may have been involved in NM's death.

So for BVE and Millie or BVE and SGW to cut up Muir it means the testimony about the level of skill required to cut like that is over stated. There are people (i.e. the police) who think it was overstated and could have been done by a GP (i.e. SGW).

I'm not so sure on the second theory you put forward about leaving Millie's and running into Vonnie later. Firstly, I'm not sure timing would allow it.
The timing still works. Where it gets iffy is the cutter. Whether it's SGW or Dr X, BVE has to arrange for them to be on hand at short notice.


Secondly, if NM had just scored, how motivated is he to jump into a car with Vonnie on the lure of more candy?
As far as we know BVE never supplied him with H. A better explanation is he accepted a lift to wherever he was going.

Good pick up on Mr B's claims about the proposed "surgery". That does put a slicer in the picture from the start. I'm assuming he didn't always get involved.
From what I can tell - it's likely he was involved (present) at the first one and then cut ties with BVE. That's how it reads to me.
 

JezMez

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Here's one more thing the ebook alleges;

NM had his bell-end cut off and a laceration down his shaft which is what happens in gender realignment surgery. So the inference is that Dr X is the cutter (rather than SGW) and that he was practising some gender realignment surgery and surgery in general.

Dr X
Possible gender realignment surgeon
Would have been 34-40 in 1979
British accent and background
Had a senior position at one of Adelaide's hospital
 

Kurve

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Here's one more thing the ebook alleges;

NM had his bell-end cut off and a laceration down his shaft which is what happens in gender realignment surgery. So the inference is that Dr X is the cutter (rather than SGW) and that he was practising some gender realignment surgery and surgery in general.

Dr X
Possible gender realignment surgeon
Would have been 34-40 in 1979
British accent and background
Had a senior position at one of Adelaide's hospital
I'm not sure anybody in Australia was doing gender reassignment/affirmation surgery back in 1979? My understanding is the first was in Melbourne much later but I'll try and verify that.
 

JezMez

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Why not a Hospital? There is a Morgue close to their beat.
In the eighties I walked past one while making a delivery. There was no security visible.
The ebook suggests that. It provides a few options. The story about Colin culminates in one of his clients from the late 80s being a Family member and having access to unused private rooms at a hospital that he could have sex with his young rent boy (Colin).

The implication is that this guy could be the cutter and could have had access to a hospital to do it in.
 

JezMez

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I'm not sure anybody in Australia was doing gender reassignment/affirmation surgery back in 1979? My understanding is the first was in Melbourne much later but I'll try and verify that.
Firman had her sex change op in 1982 and had been taking hormones for most of the 1970s.
 

Kurve

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The ebook suggests that. It provides a few options. The story about Colin culminates in one of his clients from the late 80s being a Family member and having access to unused private rooms at a hospital that he could have sex with his young rent boy (Colin).

The implication is that this guy could be the cutter and could have had access to a hospital to do it in.
I can't really even get my head around the necessity of cutting Muir down in the first place. He was a well known drug addict living a really high risk lifestyle. Without wishing to sound callous, he could have just been rolled into the river and it probably would have been written off by police through that era.
 

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