Unsolved The Family Murders

[Kurve]

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Out of Sight - The Untold Story of Adelaide's Gay Hate Murders

The Cases of Forensic Pathologist Colin Manock

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Unsolved - The Family Murders - MEDIA

This thread may be used to post the Family Murders media related content. To include press and gathered photographs from various sources. Please feel free to post but as this is a no discussion thread, comments will be deleted or moved at discretion. WHO'S WHO VICTIMS AB - Alan Barnes 16yo...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[JezMez]

I can't really even get my head around the necessity of cutting Muir down in the first place. He was a well known drug addict living a really high risk lifestyle. Without wishing to sound callous, he could have just been rolled into the river and it probably would have been written off by police through that era.

I've always thought it was for surgery practice. I still lean towards SGW pretending to be a surgeon but now that we know there was another doctor mentioned somewhere official, I'm open to the idea Dr X could be real.

 

[johnymac1]

I can't really even get my head around the necessity of cutting Muir down in the first place. He was a well known drug addict living a really high risk lifestyle. Without wishing to sound callous, he could have just been rolled into the river and it probably would have been written off by police.

it was all about sending a message, they left the bodies to be found.

 

[Bits]

it was all about sending a message, they left the bodies to be found.

But why the extremes? Barnes was only just prior to Muir and there was such a huge escalation. And then back to Langley & Kelvin with violence but not dismemberment?

 

[Kurve]

it was all about sending a message, they left the bodies to be found.

No guarantee they would have been found though and Stogneff nearly wasn't. Regards Muir and Stogneff the significance is more on the dates they were taken and the cuts. imo.

 

[GreyCrow]

But why the extremes? Barnes was only just prior to Muir and there was such a huge escalation. And then back to Langley & Kelvin with violence but not dismemberment?

If you separate them it's consistent

*Barnes knows what happened with Derrance and goes to legal aid

Silenced.

Muir is part of the crew. His drug issues make him highly vulnerable to the police going the heavy

Silenced

Stogneff , Langley and Kelvin were thrill. Given the timeline one or two of the original crew involved and others on the periphery of 1 or 2 but not all

*rampant speculation

 

[Kurve]

This is even probably too far out there for me to think Muir and Stogneff may have had their kidneys removed and trafficked, that the rest of the mutilation was to cover it up but I just stumbled over this, interestingly in late 1981. Did you know, back then just one kidney cost $30k (the price of a house) from some parts of Asia? Add costs. There was 1,200 people on the waiting list in Australia. This document from University of Adelaide draws attention to a desperate shortage.

Too interesting not to share.

https://www.michaelkirby.com.au/images/stories/speeches/1980s/vol8/1981/296-Uni_of_Adelaide_-_Transplantation_and_Bio-Ethics.pdf

 

[Bits]

.

If you separate them it's consistent

*Barnes knows what happened with Derrance and goes to legal aid

Silenced.

Muir is part of the crew. His drug issues make him highly vulnerable to the police going the heavy

Silenced

Stogneff , Langley and Kelvin were thrill. Given the timeline one or two of the original crew involved and others on the periphery of 1 or 2 but not all

*rampant speculation

Maybe, but Barnes was a fairly clean kill and Muir was completely bonkers with the level of mutilation. That’s not logical at all if the same person was running the show.

 

[GreyCrow]

.

Maybe, but Barnes was a fairly clean kill and Muir was completely bonkers with the level of mutilation. That’s not logical at all if the same person was running the show.

Fair point

But what if Muir was a warning to anyone else?

 

[AdelaideGT]

How old is Little B and do you know his real name?


Mr B was born around 1959 making him around 20 when AB was murdered and around 61 today. He was from the outer northern suburbs of Adelaide. He's lived at times in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane (where he was allegedly a bus driver). Within years of The Family murders he found himself addicted to heroin.

Little B was Brian. I would have thought he was about 20 in 1982 when I first met him. He was good looking, straight acting and of a slight build so I guess some might have thought he was a couple of years younger. About this time he lived in a share-house with about 3 others in their early 20s (a couple of who were drug users) as well as at least one older man who was very well-known on the scene.

We don't know but....

TFMB mentions four doctors; SGW, Millhouse, Dr Robert (gay, x-dresser, was BVE main supplier, never a suspect), and a 4th guy who was mates with Mr R and passed his med exam with Dr Robert. He was also allegedly part of the alleged group that met through Derrance and morphed into The Family.

So the book is implying that Dr X is the guy who cut up the bodies.

Oh ok. I guess there is a slight chance the Doctor I mentioned could have been 'Doctor Robert' but can't remember his name (I probably would recall if someone told me an actual name). Though all Doctors have some basic knowledge of surgery, I doubt the one I'm talking about would have been capable of much.

I have also struggled to connect Vonnie and Millie

That's even more confusing that the initials lol

There were two drag queens in Adelaide around the time known as Vonnie and Millie.

 

[HK_Hawk]

Fair point

But what if Muir was a warning to anyone else?

Yeah, nah, not seeing it. That’s generational organised crime $hit. Can you imagine this cluster * of misfits being that organised and calculating. These guys were driven by their dikks and psychopathology, not building long term power structures IMO

 

[Kurve]

There were two drag queens in Adelaide around the time known as Vonnie and Millie.

Vonnie is one of von Einem's nicknames and Millie is short for Dr. Millhouse.

 

[AdelaideGT]

I'm not sure anybody in Australia was doing gender reassignment/affirmation surgery back in 1979? My understanding is the first was in Melbourne much later but I'll try and verify that.

From my recollection in the early 80s, all surgery was done overseas, lots of queens journeying to Thailand in particular. Many of them used to 'show and tell' to others who were considering travel for that purpose. They could start hormone treatment while in Australia, of course.

 

[AdelaideGT]

Vonnie is one of von Einem's nicknames and Millie is short for Dr. Millhouse.

I gathered that. Just saying there was another Millie (nice funny guy, worked at the Mars Bar as part of 'Wally's Follies' for a number of years) and also there was a Vonnie who I'm not sure I met. I may have just heard about 'her' from other drag queens. At the time there were a LOT who came into Adelaide from other places and some didn't stay around long. Some lived quiet lives in the suburbs. Some came for a few bucks as a 'visiting artist' (or hooker at times) and to catch up with old friends.

But Millie is definitely NOT Millhouse lol

 

[HK_Hawk]

I like to call them Millie and Vonnie... suggests to me the impotent cowards they were/are

 

[Kurve]

It's an interesting suggestion in the ebook that particular cuts on Muir were likened to practicing gender reassignment surgery however, a cut along the shaft of the penis is also how it's done prior to skinning an animal and after the innards have been removed. Testicles are taken off as one of the first jobs.

I know everybody is going to hate this but with an average degree of difficulty, it only takes ten minutes to dress an animal ready to butcher into cuts of meat and that includes the removal of all innards.

There are legitimate sources and a heap of youtube clips around if in doubt. Experienced do-it-yourselfers, after the innards are removed can butcher a 250 pound pig in 45 minutes. That's with two on the job. So under two hours for one.

Mention of a gourmet butcher with the same bad habits as BVE in the ebook, seven times if I remember correctly, is too interesting not to want to know who it was?

 

[JezMez]

I wonder why some of this info has been unavailable until now?

The butcher from Grange is probably easiest to speculate an explanation - his name was thrown up by "ken". Police investigated him and discovered he was roughing up rent boys and had no affiliation with BVE and The Family. He may have even had an alibi. For what ever reason he was ruled out and that's why when suspect lists are released, he (or any other butcher) is not on it.

But what about Dr X? I suspect for similar reason - he was ruled out and that's why when suspect lists are released, there's only one doctor on it (SGW). This suggests police think SGW is the cutter.

A possible explanation for the escalation in violence between AB and NM:

AB gets taken by BVE and Mr B. Mr R comes along because BVE invited him. They take him somewhere, maybe Mr R's dungeon (everywhere else these rooms are called cellars. In SA they're called dungeons), put a bottle up his **** and he dies.

SGW hears about this through either Mr R or BVE and says he wants in on the next one. SGW is thinking he can do some surgery play. On the night, BVE talks to Mr R and SGW and they agree that BVE will pick someone up and bring him back (to either Mr R's or SGW - both had dungeons in their houses). BVE is trawling his beat in his car and sees NM. Hey Neil where are you going? I can give you a ride into the city. Here, have a beer......

The best explanation is that the cutter wasn't at the first one (AB) but was at the second (NM).

 

[Kurve]

More on Woodards, I'll try find out what the result was.


June 15, 2011 12:00am

AN INTERSTATE doctor with alleged links to the "Family" murders has been ordered to stand trial on sex charges.
Dr Stephen George Woodards, 61, from NSW, right, appeared in the Adelaide Magistrates Court yesterday.
He pleaded not guilty to five counts of unlawful sexual intercourse with a person under the age of 17, and two counts of indecent assault. Court documents allege the offences occurred between January 1, 1982, and August 29, 1982, at St Peters.

The court has previously heard the alleged victim was a male youth at the time of the offences, but has since changed gender.

"The prosecution case will be that the complainant and accused had little, if any, prior knowledge of each other before the alleged incident," he said.

"The offences allegedly occurred when the parties were alone in a room together ... (the other man's) name was given to the complainant, but up to four years after the event."

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www.adelaidenow.com.au

 

[Kurve]

I wonder why some of this info has been unavailable until now?

The butcher from Grange is probably easiest to speculate an explanation - his name was thrown up by "ken". Police investigated him and discovered he was roughing up rent boys and had no affiliation with BVE and The Family. He may have even had an alibi. For what ever reason he was ruled out and that's why when suspect lists are released, he (or any other butcher) is not on it.

But what about Dr X? I suspect for similar reason - he was ruled out and that's why when suspect lists are released, there's only one doctor on it (SGW). This suggests police think SGW is the cutter.

A possible explanation for the escalation in violence between AB and NM:

AB gets taken by BVE and Mr B. Mr R comes along because BVE invited him. They take him somewhere, maybe Mr R's dungeon (everywhere else these rooms are called cellars. In SA they're called dungeons), put a bottle up his ass and he dies.

SGW hears about this through either Mr R or BVE and says he wants in on the next one. SGW is thinking he can do some surgery play. On the night, BVE talks to Mr R and SGW and they agree that BVE will pick someone up and bring him back (to either Mr R's or SGW - both had dungeons in their houses). BVE is trawling his beat in his car and sees NM. Hey Neil where are you going? I can give you a ride into the city. Here, have a beer......

The best explanation is that the cutter wasn't at the first one (AB) but was at the second (NM).

I'm not totally hung up on the butcher and was surprised to see it in the ebook, I'd just like to know a bit more about this person.

At a bit of a loss too as to why one of Muir's legs was completely boned? He was cut down to 54 pounds including his head which would have weighed about 11. Even taking into consideration the weight of his organs/innards there's a significant amount of flesh gone.

It might make sense that wherever the rest of Muir went, it was important for the doer no identifiers were in that place. Everything that could easily identify him, head, hands and tattoos were all in the garbage bags.

 

[Kurve]

I wonder why some of this info has been unavailable until now?

The butcher from Grange is probably easiest to speculate an explanation - his name was thrown up by "ken". Police investigated him and discovered he was roughing up rent boys and had no affiliation with BVE and The Family. He may have even had an alibi. For what ever reason he was ruled out and that's why when suspect lists are released, he (or any other butcher) is not on it.

The butcher is recognised as an associate of BVE in the ebook. Ch 6 page 21. The butcher was also recruited as a witness for the prosecution to say bugger all. Only that he once saw von Einem near a pharmacy? What was that all about?

 

[Kurve]

More on Woodards, I'll try find out what the result was.


June 15, 2011 12:00am

AN INTERSTATE doctor with alleged links to the "Family" murders has been ordered to stand trial on sex charges.
Dr Stephen George Woodards, 61, from NSW, right, appeared in the Adelaide Magistrates Court yesterday.
He pleaded not guilty to five counts of unlawful sexual intercourse with a person under the age of 17, and two counts of indecent assault. Court documents allege the offences occurred between January 1, 1982, and August 29, 1982, at St Peters.

The court has previously heard the alleged victim was a male youth at the time of the offences, but has since changed gender.

"The prosecution case will be that the complainant and accused had little, if any, prior knowledge of each other before the alleged incident," he said.

"The offences allegedly occurred when the parties were alone in a room together ... (the other man's) name was given to the complainant, but up to four years after the event."

No Cookies | The Advertiser

www.adelaidenow.com.au

The ebook has the charges as eventually dropped against Dr. S.

 

[Bits]

The ebook has the charges as eventually dropped against Dr. S.

Yep. No amount of searching turns up anything online about the reasons.

 

[JezMez]

Reading between the lines, the victim was likely a child prostitute. How do you prove SGW knew he was underage? I have little sympathy for people who make decisions for their own benefit and then later regret and blame someone else because they were acting illegally.

 

[Power Ballad]

If you separate them it's consistent

*Barnes knows what happened with Derrance and goes to legal aid

Silenced.

Muir is part of the crew. His drug issues make him highly vulnerable to the police going the heavy

Silenced

Stogneff , Langley and Kelvin were thrill. Given the timeline one or two of the original crew involved and others on the periphery of 1 or 2 but not all

*rampant speculation

Exactly how I see them also.

Strangest of all to me though is Barnes connection to DK, Derrence and BvE. Who is the chicken? Who is the egg?

I can only guess he already knew BvE casually from his job, BvE flirts but this doesn't go anywhere... Barnes gets accused of rape... Barnes meets DK through a mutual friend and then becomes part of the group where he is reintroduced to BvE... He gets referred to Derrence through the group for legal assistance? He is likely around when Derrence is murdered. He is also somehow a regular at Derrances house and is a heroin addict known as "Blondie"... all of this at the age of 16 and in the first 5 months of 1979? What an absolutely tragic story, things escalated quickly since the charges were laid I suppose?

 

[Kurve]

Then there's a part of a book that talks about a child prostitute named Colin who in the late 80s had clientele that included Mr R and some other guy who was allegedly in The Family and had access to locked rooms in a hospital. I assume this is the same Dr.


I call him Dr X because we don't know who he is. In fact, no one here has ever heard of another doctor being involved.

The implication in the ebook is that the bearded Brit with access to locked hospital rooms and more specifically one that might hold a slab, is South Australia's chief forensic pathologist Dr. Manock.

Dr. X is Colin Manock

 

[JezMez]

He is also somehow a regular at Derrances house and is a heroin addict known as "Blondie"...

I missed this. Is it in the ebook?