Unsolved The Family Murders

[Kurve]

The Who's Who List

• #2,647

Out of Sight - The Untold Story of Adelaide's Gay Hate Murders

The Cases of Forensic Pathologist Colin Manock

Use this thread below to lodge media, maps and photos for quick reference.

Unsolved - The Family Murders - MEDIA

This thread may be used to post the Family Murders media related content. To include press and gathered photographs from various sources. Please feel free to post but as this is a no discussion thread, comments will be deleted or moved at discretion. WHO'S WHO VICTIMS AB - Alan Barnes 16yo...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Bits]

The thing with the band aid is weird though. Have you ever tried to re-stick a band aid that came off completely? Let alone one that had hairs/fibres stuck to it? Maybe it was just peeled up at the edges a bit - friction from the carpet - and carpet fibres got under the edge.

Also, Millhouse was a doctor. You’d think he would have bandaids in the house. If the wound bled enough to spill blood, (enough that they had to clean up the blood later), and reapply the bandaid, wouldn’t he have given him a new one?

 

[JezMez]

The thing with the band aid is weird though. Have you ever tried to re-stick a band aid that came off completely? Let alone one that had hairs/fibres stuck to it? Maybe it was just peeled up at the edges a bit - friction from the carpet - and carpet fibres got under the edge.

Also, Millhouse was a doctor. You’d think he would have bandaids in the house. If the wound bled enough to spill blood, (enough that they had to clean up the blood later), and reapply the bandaid, wouldn’t he have given him a new one?

The flaw in my scenario above is band-aid.

Muir might have bled for some other reason. Given the bleach clean, you'd have to think for whatever reason, Neil Muir bled in that bathroom.

 

[Bits]

Just throwing out thoughts here.

Maybe Millhouse & BvE were indulging themselves with a drugged Neil on the lounge room carpet - BvE’s hair & carpet fibres get stuck to the edges of the bandaid on Neil’s leg - and things went too far.

The ebook says that Millhouse was trying to introduce steel implements into his interactions and we know that insertion was also BvE’s kink.

Or maybe Millhouse was by himself with Neil and things went too far. Millhouse realised the bleeding was more serious than he thought, and called in BvE to help, given that BvE was known to Neil and was also known to be non-judgemental about that sort of activity given that he was into it himself.

They could have moved him to the bathroom for easy clean up, assuming Neil wasn’t already in there thanks to Millhouse’s golden shower kink. Then called in their friendly neighbourhood surgeon/doctor and carted Neil away to finish the job, potentially grabbing bin liners, clothesline etc as they went in case they came in handy.

So things started at Millhouse’s and moved from there to another location. Millhouse’s involvement may have ended at his home or he may have gone with them.

Neil dies, Millhouse panics and starts chucking bleach everywhere, goes on huge bender and ends up locked away in a psych unit thanks to his old colleagues.

This leaves all sorts of plot holes - how did they move Neil, where did they take him, who chucked him in the river etc.

 

[JezMez]

That court transcript would come in handy right now. Being able to see much blood warranted "traces of blood" would clarify a fair bit. Understanding if the clothes line cord either "matched" (i.e. that cord came from Millhouse's clothes line), was "consistent" (i.e. exact same product but can't determine if it came from Millhouse's clothes line), or similar (i.e. it's not a match).

 

[Kurve]

It would be handy to know if BVE took a day off work too given it was a Monday.

We know BVE knew Millhouse but was Millhouse supplying BVE with drugs? Off records maybe if not on script?

 

[QLander]

That's where I was at before the ebook was published and I'm still there. The e-book places a many tined fork in the road and I don't know which option to take, if at all.

Charlie's theory about BVE thinking Muir grassed him up has been debunked. BVE didn't know he was on the police's radar until after Muir as murdered. Someone (may have been Charlie as well) also theorised that BVE may have told Muir during pillow talk that he did Barnes and then thought he'd shut down that risk. I doubt they were having casual sex or in that type of relationship. Maybe BVE paid him in pills for sex on occasion (that Neil could then on-sell). Maybe, given that he sometimes used Muir as a lure, he told him he did Barnes as some sort of boast or threat?

But I still think at this stage, the most likely option is Woodards (some repeating of your points);

• Barnes' death was accidental. They took him to a rental and BVE went too far with his insertion kink, ruptured Barnes' anus, he bled out, so they cleaned him, redressed him, dumped him, and ended the lease.
• Woodards lived with Mr R
• "Dr Steve" was know for slipping people mickeys at pubs and then being a good samaritan by "helping this drunk guy leave the premises and get home safely"
• It's likely they talked freely about drugging young men/youths between themselves
• Somehow the conversation about Barnes comes up. Woodards says he wants in and wouldn't mind doing some surgery. BVE says he'll call him next time he gets someone
• Woodards is a wannabe surgeon. Has his text books from med school still. He brushes up on his knowledge
• Woodards decks his basement out for the job - table, tools, plastic

• On the 27th, Muir goes back to Millhouse's. Neil has methodone, Millhouse has sex. Neil's band-aid comes off on the rug. The wound starts bleeding. They go to the bathroom and laundry where some blood is spilled. He reapplies the band-aid.
• Meanwhile, BVE is hanging with Mr R and Dr Steve. Dr Steve says, "let's get someone tonight". BVE gets in his car and starts friving his beat.
• Millhouse has had sex, Muir has had his hit. Generally speaking, people leave once they get what they want. Muir leaves and walks to O'Connell St to get a bus. It could be as early as 5pm.
• BVE sees him and reasons to himself, "here's an easy target. A junkie with NFA won't be missed. Barnes was an accident and brought some media attention. No one will miss Neil. He's still youngish looking a pretty. Woodards and Mr R don't know he's a 25 year old junkie". So BVE offers Muir a beer and Muir doesn't think BVE will ever do it to him. Or maybe BVE said, "hey, a doctor friend mind can get pharmaceutical H. I'm going their right now, you should come....."
• BVE takes him straight to Woodards' or Mr R's house where it's all set up. They all rape him for a couple of hours. BVE now knows that inserting a large bottle or something similar will split the lining. Neil dies, Woodards cuts him up. They play around with some sex change stuff on his genitals.
• Maybe he's dead as early as 9pm. That gives as much as 8 hours to cut him up and drive the 15km to Mutton Cove and dump him.
• The next day the media report they found Neil. BVE knows Muir was at Millhouse's immediately before he picked him up. BVE pays Millhouse a visit. "Hey Pete, word on the street is you killed Muir. You're sort of f-ed mate". "They're going to think it's me, what should I do?". "Well he bled in your bathroom, it doesn't look good. I'd clean that with bleach". "His prints are all over my car!". "I'll sort that, I'll dump your car for you and drain it of fuel then you can say you didn't have a way to transport a dead body".

Aside: I'm yet to buy into Calvary, but what if it did happen there? And then BVE, under the guise of helping Millhouse, is actually trying to set him up by parking his car near Calvary? Unlikely, but you never know.

Also note: The e-book says grey hairs were found in Millhouse's bathroom and rug. Surely it could have been determined (albeit 3 years later) whether or not these hairs were BVE's?

How has Charlies theory been debunked and by who...?

 

[JezMez]

How has Charlies theory been debunked and by who...?

Who: A number of people in this thread.

Why: It's explained clearly in that post you just quoted.

I'll explain again:

Charlie's theory was that after Alan's murder, the police spoke to BVE. BVE assumed it was Muir who talked (rather than Mr B). So he had to get rid of Muir.

It is well documented that the first time police spoke to BVE about any of the murders was on 2 Sep 1979 - 6 days after Neil was murdered.

Therefore this theory, whilst a good theory, cannot be correct.

 

[Kurve]

Who: A number of people in this thread.

Why: It's explained clearly in that post you just quoted.

I'll explain again:

Charlie's theory was that after Alan's murder, the police spoke to BVE. BVE assumed it was Muir who talked (rather than Mr B). So he had to get rid of Muir.

It is well documented that the first time police spoke to BVE about any of the murders was on 2 Sep 1979 - 6 days after Neil was murdered.

Therefore this theory, whilst a good theory, cannot be correct.

Not quite. Charlie's thinking is that BVE was actually told Muir was talking to the cops before they showed up to talk to him. That makes sense imo.

 

[SquiffyRae]

But I still think at this stage, the most likely option is Woodards (some repeating of your points);

• Barnes' death was accidental. They took him to a rental and BVE went too far with his insertion kink, ruptured Barnes' anus, he bled out, so they cleaned him, redressed him, dumped him, and ended the lease.
• Woodards lived with Mr R
• "Dr Steve" was know for slipping people mickeys at pubs and then being a good samaritan by "helping this drunk guy leave the premises and get home safely"
• It's likely they talked freely about drugging young men/youths between themselves
• Somehow the conversation about Barnes comes up. Woodards says he wants in and wouldn't mind doing some surgery. BVE says he'll call him next time he gets someone
• Woodards is a wannabe surgeon. Has his text books from med school still. He brushes up on his knowledge
• Woodards decks his basement out for the job - table, tools, plastic

That's about where I'm at as well. I've said many times in earlier discussions with Charlie I don't believe any of the victims were murdered cause they "recognised" BVE because I just don't believe if you had to murder someone, you'd insert something into their anus and wait for them to bleed out. Just strangle them, stab them, beat them...any number of ways you could kill someone easier than that.

I agree with you I think at some point BVE went a bit too far inserting something and accidentally killed Alan. But afterwards he realised it was "handy" knowledge and at that point he knew if he wanted to he could hold a victim for several days and just do that to kill them when he was ready rather than just drugging someone and letting them go after 1 night like they'd done previously. Woodards wanting in on the fun to "perform surgery" just made it easier for them cause now they had someone who could help get rid of the evidence.

I prefer physical copies of books so I had a friend order the 2020 book for me for Christmas. I'm still waiting to see them to pick it up so I'll see if anything changes for me once I've given it a read

 

[JezMez]

Not quite. Charlie's thinking is that BVE was actually told Muir was talking to the cops before they showed up to talk to him. That makes sense imo.

I'm not going to go back and check the thread but I'm pretty sure Charlie said this on numerous occasions and initially his theory was as I said.

Who is going to tell BVE that Neil is talking to the cops? It's possible, but there's no evidence to hang this on.

 

[Kurve]

I'm not going to go back and check the thread but I'm pretty sure Charlie said this on numerous occasions and initially his theory was as I said.

Who is going to tell BVE that Neil is talking to the cops? It's possible, but there's no evidence to hang this on.

Mr. B.

Charlie tried to explain this in an earlier post, something about a meeting at Rundle Mall iirc between BVE, Mr. R and Mr. B. It's thought it was then the three of them discussed who was talking to the cops and the finger falsely, went on Muir.

In little Adelaide with their connections it wouldn't take long imo for word to get out that someone had spoken to the cops pointing the finger at BVE as responsible for Alan's murder.

 

[Kurve]

On von Einem's connections, over fifty were named as associates at the 1990 trial and twelve of those fifty were already on a list the police had in their files going back to 82 and 83. Almost all of them were connected to Derrance Stevenson.

Chapter 10.

 

[JezMez]

Charlie explains in one of his posts here of a meeting in Rundle Mall i think it was

Mr. B.

Charlie tried to explain this in an earlier post, something about a meeting at Rundle Mall iirc between BVE, Mr. R and Mr. B. It's thought it was then the three of them discussed who was talking to the cops and the finger falsely, went on Muir.

In little Adelaide with their connections it wouldn't take long imo for word to get out that someone had spoken to the cops pointing the finger at BVE as responsible for Alan's murder.

1. Have you ever asked yourself how Charlie would know this? I've monitored his info for a long time and he's picking bits up from online (the bits that he wants) and then filling in the gaps and passing it off as knowledge. Over the years, he would have been told stuff but most of it would have been incorrect. He's learned most of his knowledge from this thread.

2. Why would BVE call a meeting to discuss whose talking to the cops when it's impossible for BVE to know someone is talking to the cops. BVE is no big wig with cops in his pocket. If there's no reason to leak that info, it's not going to leak.

 

[JezMez]

On von Einem's connections, over fifty were named as associates at the 1990 trial and twelve of those fifty were already on a list the police had in their files going back to 82 and 83. Almost all of them were connected to Derrance Stevenson.

Chapter 10.

But how is that info going to leak?

Mr B went to the cops and mentioned only BVE. He didn't mention Mr R or RDB. Maybe if RDB got a mention, police might make discreet inquiries and the word gets out to RDB that BVE has drawn attention.

But only BVE was mentioned. He was a cardigan wearing pleb. A nobody with no criminal contacts. Not only that, police never took it seriously. It took them 67 days to drive over and have a chat to him.

The chances of word getting to BVE that someone had talked to police was remote.

 

[Kurve]

Why would BVE call a meeting to discuss whose talking to the cops when it's impossible for BVE to know someone is talking to the cops. BVE is no big wig with cops in his pocket. If there's no reason to leak that info, it's not going to leak.

I think you might be wrong on this one. The cops didn't move on Mr B's information fast enough, that allowed word to filter out that someone was talking about having knowledge of Alan's murder.

Happened all the time, it's still happening and sometimes someone ends up dead on the whispers.

EDIT: The cops rang BVE apparently, which does happen.

 

[Kurve]

But how is that info going to leak?

The story Mr. B told was pretty sensational right? The cop taking his statement at one point even rolled his eyes or something, that statement was probably passed around the station with a 'here, check this out snuff movies LOL'.

 

[jason_recliner]

I think Jez makes a valid point. Assuming somebody made a statement to the police, how would that get back to BVE? I mean, how, logistically, physically, would that happen? Adelaide is small but not that small. Even if we assume that NM's statement was so outlandish that it got the police talking within the station (a pretty big if IMO) how did it then get to a suburban accountant? Did a police person talk to a gay kid on a beat, who then told BVE? It just doesn't make sense to me. I can't see any realistic way BVE could have found out if somebody made a statement against him. He is a nobody.

 

[Kurve]

I think Jez makes a valid point. Assuming somebody made a statement to the police, how would that get back to BVE? I mean, how, logistically, physically, would that happen? Adelaide is small but not that small. Even if we assume that NM's statement was so outlandish that it got the police talking within the station (a pretty big if IMO) how did it then get to a suburban accountant? Did a police person talk to a gay kid on a beat, who then told BVE? It just doesn't make sense to me. I can't see any realistic way BVE could have found out if somebody made a statement against him. He is a nobody.

It wasn't Neil Muir who had made a statement to the police, it was Mr. B. Charlie has suggested that Neil Muir was killed because he was falsely suspected of talking to the police.

 

[MrWeisel]

Let’s be honest, none of us on here (i assume) know for sure about Mr B/NM police issue. But knowing what i know about sapol and the time, in my opinion it’s plausible that given BVE had seen 3 vice squad (and possibly others) throw Duncan into the river and was allegedly threatened by them, and kept silent about it, and some or most (i believe) vice squad went onto major crime, BVE could have been granted a reasonable amount of unofficial immunity with certain people in sapol and it’s possible someone from major crime or whatever tipped BVE off that his name had been dropped. Police Commissioner had just been sacked by dunstan partly because he was somewhat threatening to clean up the town of its vice which would have included BVE and a great many of his friends. It appears there were all sorts of criminal/police cliques going on around that time. Corruption was rife in sapol and all police forces in aus and in politics around the time. Like i said, we don’t know what happened but it’s certainly plausible i think.

 

[Bits]

BvE could have found out straight from the horse’s mouth. Mr B could have spoken to the police, then realised what a stupid thing that was to do, because if it was only Mr R, Mr B and BvE in the car when Alan was taken, who else could have said anything?

Mr B could easily have told BvE, or even Mr R, that NM worked it out by overhearing something, and had asked Mr B what happened, and that NM ran off to the police.

Wouldn’t have taken much. “Hey BevBang, I heard that Neil went to the cops and dropped you in it over that blond kid.”

 

[JezMez]

Back when this thread started there was some sort of article that said 3 main suspects. I think it was from a SAPOL media release. The 2 suspects were;

Mr R, Mr B, and "the doctor". We all assumed the doctor was Woodards.

Fast forward 8 or so years later and the e-book is released. A few of us have read through it. It's clear the main suspect "the doctor" is Wooodards.

Muir got cut to pieces. Milhouse was acquitted and went back to Mt Gambier. Then Stogneff got cut up like Muir.

I can't see Millhouse being the surgeon. It has to be Woodards, or an outside chance "the butcher".


Barnes - not cut up - probably BVE + Mr R + Mr B
Muir - cut up - BVE + ????
Stogneff - cut up - BVE + ????
Langley - not cut up
Kelvin - not cut up


Did the butcher get involved for Muir and Stogneff? The not invited for the last two?

 

[DropBearess]

I'm positive BVE was not a witness to Dr. Duncan being thrown into the river, or his subsequent drowning. He was merely driving by as Roger James

Roger James

Age

48

Ht

177cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.9

4star

K

10.1

4star

HB

6.9

4star

M

3.7

4star

T

1.8

4star

No current season stats available

D

9.2

3star

K

5.2

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

2.0

3star

T

0.6

3star

(Duncan's companion) was staggering up the river bank. Duncan's assailants had already bolted. The bank is very close to the road, allowing BVE to be the good Samaritan. So I can't believe BVE would have wanted or cultivated any relationship with SAPOL, nor would they with him.

 

[Dell43]

Let’s be honest, none of us on here (i assume) know for sure about Mr B/NM police issue. But knowing what i know about sapol and the time, in my opinion it’s plausible that given BVE had seen 3 vice squad (and possibly others) throw Duncan into the river and was allegedly threatened by them, and kept silent about it, and some or most (i believe) vice squad went onto major crime, BVE could have been granted a reasonable amount of unofficial immunity with certain people in sapol and it’s possible someone from major crime or whatever tipped BVE off that his name had been dropped. Police Commissioner had just been sacked by dunstan partly because he was somewhat threatening to clean up the town of its vice which would have included BVE and a great many of his friends. It appears there were all sorts of criminal/police cliques going on around that time. Corruption was rife in sapol and all police forces in aus and in politics around the time. Like i said, we don’t know what happened but it’s certainly plausible i think.

I agree with you Mr Weisel. I have always had the opinion that some police officers were turning a blind eye to BVE activities. In my opinion police ignored information or were slow to investigate what BVE was doing because vice squad members allegedly involved in the Duncan incident were aware he had seen them either throw George Duncan in the river or saw them leaving the scene of the crime.

All parties would have been known to each other as vice squad officers no doubt would of investigated BVE previously (remembering their role at the time was to police homosexuality). There must have been an agreement that BVE would keep his mouth shut about what he had seen and in return police would derail any investigations into what he was doing and also pass on any relevant information.

 

[SquiffyRae]

I can't see Millhouse being the surgeon. It has to be Woodards, or an outside chance "the butcher".

Barnes - not cut up - probably BVE + Mr R + Mr B
Muir - cut up - BVE + ????
Stogneff - cut up - BVE + ????
Langley - not cut up
Kelvin - not cut up

Did the butcher get involved for Muir and Stogneff? The not invited for the last two?

Mark Langley wasn't cut up but he did have part of his intestinal tract removed supposedly to retrieve something that got stuck up there. It was supposedly done in the manner any other surgery would have used so presumably that was Woodards. I guess the question is were the rougher hack jobs of Muir and Stogneff also Woodards or another guy we'll call "the butcher"?

Jez you've read the book and from what I've heard from people on here it heavily implies that the authors believe Colin Manock was "the butcher" is that correct? If so do you believe there's any chance Manock was involved at all or do you think it's more likely Woodards did the lot?

Also just gonna float this out here - Richard Kelvin was the only victim other than the first not to have had something done to his body, either cut up or operated on. Does anybody else think this might have been because of the high profile nature of his abduction so they wanted to try and make it look like it wasn't them who had kidnapped him?

 

[jason_recliner]

It wasn't Neil Muir who had made a statement to the police, it was Mr. B. Charlie has suggested that Neil Muir was killed because he was falsely suspected of talking to the police.

Yes, it's easy to get lost in these threads, but it doesn't matter who made the statement. I still can't see any realistically probable mechanism from somebody making a statement to the police to BVE being informed. Why would anybody inform him?