Unsolved The Family Murders

[Kurve]

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Out of Sight - The Untold Story of Adelaide's Gay Hate Murders

The Cases of Forensic Pathologist Colin Manock

Use this thread below to lodge media, maps and photos for quick reference.

Unsolved - The Family Murders - MEDIA

This thread may be used to post the Family Murders media related content. To include press and gathered photographs from various sources. Please feel free to post but as this is a no discussion thread, comments will be deleted or moved at discretion. WHO'S WHO VICTIMS AB - Alan Barnes 16yo...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[PaulSubetro]

I haven't read this yet but from first glance it looks like;

1. It's recent (recent pic of David Szach)
2. It may have been written by an Adelaidian with a Russian background
3. The author spent a lot of time at the State Library accessing old clippings
4. Any misinformation might be explained by
a. Inaccuracies caused by the translation software
b. In any big news story, early articles often have inaccuracies due to media outlets being under pressure to report new info. Often new info is misreported.

 

[PaulSubetro]

It's odd also because Peter's school bag was found at his home, hidden in the garage, indicating that he went off to school, then doubled back to hide his bag so that he wouldn't have to take it with him. So what backpack did the witness see? Did he take another backpack from home? Can't recall that detail previously. Maybe he did, and this was one of those details that police hold back.in order to verify witnesses. Otherwise, if the witness saw him with a man and with his school bag, how did it end up back at his house?

This was before he dumped his bag at home. It was thought he went to Tea Tree Plaza for a bit, then went home, dumped his bag and headed to the city. There was a witness who said they may have seen Stogneff with a man at Tea Tree Plaza.

Stogneff lived in Hope Valley which at the time was a new sub-division. Tea Tree Plaza is now a Westfield.

Unless Bevan picked him up from Tea Tree Plaza and swung by Stofneff's house to drop his bag, I think he got abducted sometime later. This was on a weekday. I wonder if Bevan had the day off that day?

 

[Kurve]

There are actually a couple of errors here which worries me about how accurate the rest of this is too.

Neil Muir wasn’t held and raped for a few days. According to some reports, he was last seen on 27 August when he was chucked out of a pub by a bouncer who knew him as a frequent customer:

The Family Murders — Unresolved

unresolved.me

His body was found on 28 August at Mutton Cove on the Port River:

Neil Fredrick Muir - Crime Stoppers South Australia

Rewards up to $200,000 will be paid by the Government of South Australia, at the discretion of the Commissioner of Police, to anyone who provides information and assistance that leads to the conviction of the person or persons responsible for the suspected murder of Neil Muir. REWARD up to...

crimestopperssa.com.au

Alberton is more than 11kms away:

View attachment 782938

I wonder if we can find out if any of them rode a pushbike. There's been no mention faik of any of 'the girls' having their own cars, seems whenever they pop up in a car it's someone else's.

 

[DropBearess]

I've followed this case for many years although this is my first post on the topic. I know Pru Firman's name before she became Pru and she wasn't Brooks, or anyone else remotely connected or relevant.

 

[Kurve]

I've followed this case for many years although this is my first post on the topic. I know Pru Firman's name before she became Pru and she wasn't Brooks, or anyone else remotely connected or relevant.

Hi. Thanks for that. Can you say what it was? Or a little background on when, if you're able to.

 

[DropBearess]

It wouldn't be appropriate to state PF's original name here. As far as l know, several of her family members are still unaware of the whole unfortunate scenario. None of them moved in the same circles or were/are remotely similar. However, as an Adelaidean very familiar with the places and situations at the time, I've followed it very closely and haven't missed much.

 

[PaulSubetro]

It wouldn't be appropriate to state PF's original name here. As far as l know, several of her family members are still unaware of the whole unfortunate scenario. None of them moved in the same circles or were/are remotely similar. However, as an Adelaidean very familiar with the places and situations at the time, I've followed it very closely and haven't missed much.

Do you know who "k" is?

We know Firman and Turtur definitely lived at the Alberton house. We also have info that "k" lived there and Brooks lived there, but it was only a 3 bedroom house.

 

[Hendrix27]

I wonder if anyone knows who these two are?
Photographed entering the court for BVE's trial for Kelvin.

 

[Bits]

It wouldn't be appropriate to state PF's original name here. As far as l know, several of her family members are still unaware of the whole unfortunate scenario. None of them moved in the same circles or were/are remotely similar. However, as an Adelaidean very familiar with the places and situations at the time, I've followed it very closely and haven't missed much.

Is there anything that has been mentioned in this thread that you think is completely wrong? Part of understanding what happened is eliminating incorrect information, but I feel as though we are fumbling around speculating a lot of the time. Can you assist with any of our theories/discussions and help us to focus our thoughts?

For example, I would love a timeline of who lived where, and when. Pru Firman lived at Alberton, and was there when drugged boys were delivered. She also lived at Shipsters Rd with Sarah Novak (who we still know nothing about). Then at some stage she moved to Sydney. Was Shipsters inbetween Alberton and Sydney? Was it after the killings? During them? During the Kelvin trial?

If you can share anything that will clear up any errors and prevent us from repeating false info, please do.

Thanks.

 

[BlueE]

Maybe, but I think it's unlikely there was another doctor other than old mate, Woodards.

Page 232 of Young Blood

Stogneff was cut into 3 pieces. The three cuts were;

• Lower backbone above the pelvis (on the third lumbar vertebra)
• Each lower thigh was cut just above the knees

Although there was no evidence Stogneff's head had been cut off, the other 3 cuts were identical to Muir's.

Stogneff was taken two years after Muir. It's likely this was the same person who cut up the bodies. Millhouse had long since left Adelaide.

Page 233 of Young Blood

Dr Manock gave evidence to the Coroner that an object could have been inserted into Langley's anus and removed by rough surgery.

There's conflicting views on the level of prowess of the surgery. Conversely, there's not conflicting views on how may doctors were involved.

The reports of the specific cuts that match Stogneff and Muir you are quote from the book doesn't match more detailed reports coming from the Post Mortem reported in Millhouse's trial. I've previously attached reports from newspaper's at the time of expert surgical testimony in Muir's trial with expert dissection of the fingers at the metacarpals and femur from the pelvis and this article adds dissections in the joints of the ulna (wrist), shoulder and knee (not sawn). Also the surgical detail in the Russian translation to do with Neil Muir and Mark Langley suggests their information is from post mortum reports. For Manock to say this was rough surgery is a joke!

The description of the surgery to remove the object inserted into Langley should leave no doubt that this is a very specialised technique from a specialised gastrointestinal surgeon. I'd say different specialty than Muir and neither GP's Millhouse or Woodard were responsible. I'm not talking about the neat sutures done with surgical thread that is usually identified.

While I'm aware that the Russian article has some strange claims and they given reasons for that, the level of detail on the surgical dissections that add to the information on both Muir and Langley is worth looking at objectively. I was unaware that a claim is made that the the surgery of Langley was Mengele like with biazzare and horrific experimentation that would be unimaginable to almost all of the population. I thought the same when I first read of the Muir details.

Warning do not read if you are somehow connected to the families or it's hard to be objective. The account of finding Neil Muir's remains is in a different place but they say they have photos from here of the two plastic bags (inside a morgue bag) being loaded into a coroner service car for delivery to the morgue.

Neil Muir
Around noon on Tuesday August 28, 1979, a fisherman who surprised a fish from a dilapidated pier on the Port River, in the northwest of Adelaide, noticed two black plastic garbage bags nailed down to the concrete support of the pier.

In two plastic bags of blue and black colors with a barrel capacity each (i.e. about 164 liters) there were dissected remains of one person ..



Police footage: loading plastic bags found near the marina on the Port River into a coroner service car for delivery to the morgue.

His body turned out to be divided into a total of 43 fragments, in addition, in 5 places skin flaps were thinly cut. Forensic scientists suggested that the purpose of this cutting was to remove some skin lesions that could help in identifying the corpse (tattoos, birthmarks, burn marks or surgical scars) and subsequently the correctness of this conjecture was confirmed by the relatives of the victim. In the first bag - the one that the angler discovered - there were fragments of limbs dissected in the areas of the joints (metacarpal, ulnar, shoulder, knee), in the second there was a torso with a partially gutted abdominal cavity. Although the head of the slain was completely cut off, it turned out to be a very unusual way attached to the torso. The disintegrator passed a shoe string through the throat and mouth of the severed head, the second end of which was inserted into the esophagus and stomach, and then pulled through the incision of the stomach and connected the ends with a single knot. Such a sophisticated dismemberment of the corpse could not recall any of the forensic doctors and forensic scientists who saw these remains.

A forensic examination revealed that a well-formed young man aged 20 to 30 years was killed. Numerous superficial injuries were recorded on the torso, left either by a leather whip or by a similar device, but these sediments could not affect the victim's vitality. There were also scratches and traces of pressure (pinching), which generally gave the impression of damage characteristic of immoderate sexual games, rather than serious torture or beatings. These injuries could be painful, but in any case, they did not threaten the victim’s life in any way.

The cause of death turned out to be identical in everything to that described in the case of Alan Barnes - an extensive anal trauma caused by the introduction of a large-diameter object into the rectum, such as a bottle or wide end of a baseball bat. Rough introduction of a foreign body led to rupture of rectal muscles and rectum about 8 cm long (more than 3 inches).

Considering that these are very elastic and durable fabrics, the traumatic effect should have been sharp and applied with considerable effort. It is quite possible that a bottle was partially kicked into the anus in the anus ... The way the body was subdivided in a sophisticated manner clearly showed cruelty and aggression, the death of an unknown man was clearly the result of a deliberate murder, and by no means an unsuccessful sexual experiment.

Clothes and shoes of the unknown were missing, documents, of course, too.

The fact that the body of the slain was so dismembered could, in principle, lead to a very rapid loss of the remains - small river inhabitants would destroy the flesh within a month - so the killer’s calculation was very far-sighted. But the fact that the criminal did not want to take the remains far from the city and helped dump his cargo into the river within the port of Adelaide really helped the law enforcement agencies. The bags were found very quickly - they were hardly in the water for more than a day. The time of death was determined no more than two days before the discovery of the body - i.e. Sunday afternoon on August 26, or later.

Noctec was found in the blood of the murdered, the same chloral hydrate that was found two months earlier in the blood of Alan Barnes. ...

Muir was not homosexual, on the contrary, according to the stories of friends, he was distinguished by activity in search of new women and impressions. Actually, on the day of his disappearance - on Friday, August 24 - he went exactly on a date with another new acquaintance. The “Cultural Program” suggested that the couple go to a disco bar, drink alcohol and dance there, and then, as the card goes down, he either goes to the hotel together or goes home.

Mark Langley
The lower abdomen of the deceased was cut and ... sewn with surgical thread. It was nothing like at all! Who, when and for what purpose did the surgery completely healthy 18-year-old guy?

The subsequent forensic medical examination proved that the picture of the crime, the victim of which was Mark Langley, is much more complicated than that which even the most unbridled and perverted fantasy could imagine. First of all, the young man underwent a gross anal rape with a rupture of the rectum and rectal muscles. These injuries were all reminiscent of those described by Alan Barnes and Neil Muir in 1979.

But the bodily injuries were not limited to this. The killer performed a strip operation, cut the peritoneum and removed part of the small intestine, and also made a long (about 10 cm.) Rectal incision. After that, he filled the abdominal cavity with cotton and ... stitched it using surgical suture material.

These manipulations seemed so strange that forensic experts had to assemble a real consultation in order to find an acceptable explanation of what the criminal had done and why.

The operation was a makeshift operation, but the accuracy that the “surgeon” showed was especially important (the word involuntarily has to be quoted, since in the traditional sense the surgeon is a doctor who is called to save lives, but in this case we are talking about a killer).

This man prudently pulled large blood vessels, as well as the rest of the intestine, in order to prevent its contents from entering the abdominal cavity. In addition, the offender stuffed his stomach with cotton and sewed a cut on his stomach. Obviously, all this was done in order to minimize the threat of blood stained environmental objects.

The operation was performed on a living person without proper surgical anesthesia, in a way that can't be imagined and gives rise to an association with Dr. Mengele’s experiments.

On the back and head of the murdered young man, numerous intravital bruises and skin sediments were recorded, but they did not affect the viability of Mark Langley. The cause of death was blood loss due to anal trauma and extraction of part of the intestine during surgery. The time of death was determined approximately 5 days before the discovery of the body, i.e. March 3-4. This meant that the young man was held captive for 70 to 100 hours.

Alcohol was found in the blood of the deceased (about 3 ppm), the dose of which corresponded to severe intoxication. In addition to him, in the blood there were more than once mentioned "noctec" and other powerful sedatives - "mandrax" and "rohypnol".

No less interesting for detectives was another relaxing drug found in the blood of Mark Langley - we are talking about rohypnol. This medicine also had a certain reputation in certain circles, and it was often and rightly called it "sleeping pill rapists." “Rohypnol” possessed pronounced sedative and relaxing properties; in hospitals it was often used to administer the operated patient to general anesthesia and maintain general anesthesia. Compared to the Mandrax, it was a real “heavy artillery”, the “Rohypnol” had a pronounced inhibitory effect on the central nervous system, quickly caused a short deep sleep, more like a memory failure.

The way the killer Mark Langley performed the operation, used sedative drugs, as well as the very fact of receiving such drugs at his disposal - all this led to the assumption that the criminal had a medical education and appropriate practice.

 

[Kurve]

The reports of the specific cuts that match Stogneff and Muir you are quote from the book doesn't match more detailed reports coming from the Post Mortem reported in Millhouse's trial. I've previously attached reports from newspaper's at the time of expert surgical testimony in Muir's trial with expert dissection of the fingers at the metacarpals and femur from the pelvis and this article adds dissections in the joints of the ulna (wrist), shoulder and knee (not sawn). Also the surgical detail in the Russian translation to do with Neil Muir and Mark Langley suggests their information is from post mortum reports. For Manock to say this was rough surgery is a joke!

The description of the surgery to remove the object inserted into Langley should leave no doubt that this is a very specialised technique from a specialised gastrointestinal surgeon. I'd say different specialty than Muir and neither GP's Millhouse or Woodard were responsible. I'm not talking about the neat sutures done with surgical thread that is usually identified.

While I'm aware that the Russian article has some strange claims and they given reasons for that, the level of detail on the surgical dissections that add to the information on both Muir and Langley is worth looking at objectively. I was unaware that a claim is made that the the surgery of Langley was Mengele like with biazzare and horrific experimentation that would be unimaginable to almost all of the population. I thought the same when I first read of the Muir details.

Warning do not read if you are somehow connected to the families or it's hard to be objective. The account of finding Neil Muir's remains is in a different place but they say they have photos from here of the two plastic bags (inside a morgue bag) being loaded into a coroner service car for delivery to the morgue.

Neil Muir
Around noon on Tuesday August 28, 1979, a fisherman who surprised a fish from a dilapidated pier on the Port River, in the northwest of Adelaide, noticed two black plastic garbage bags nailed down to the concrete support of the pier.

In two plastic bags of blue and black colors with a barrel capacity each (i.e. about 164 liters) there were dissected remains of one person ..

View attachment 783573

Police footage: loading plastic bags found near the marina on the Port River into a coroner service car for delivery to the morgue.

His body turned out to be divided into a total of 43 fragments, in addition, in 5 places skin flaps were thinly cut. Forensic scientists suggested that the purpose of this cutting was to remove some skin lesions that could help in identifying the corpse (tattoos, birthmarks, burn marks or surgical scars) and subsequently the correctness of this conjecture was confirmed by the relatives of the victim. In the first bag - the one that the angler discovered - there were fragments of limbs dissected in the areas of the joints (metacarpal, ulnar, shoulder, knee), in the second there was a torso with a partially gutted abdominal cavity. Although the head of the slain was completely cut off, it turned out to be a very unusual way attached to the torso. The disintegrator passed a shoe string through the throat and mouth of the severed head, the second end of which was inserted into the esophagus and stomach, and then pulled through the incision of the stomach and connected the ends with a single knot. Such a sophisticated dismemberment of the corpse could not recall any of the forensic doctors and forensic scientists who saw these remains.

A forensic examination revealed that a well-formed young man aged 20 to 30 years was killed. Numerous superficial injuries were recorded on the torso, left either by a leather whip or by a similar device, but these sediments could not affect the victim's vitality. There were also scratches and traces of pressure (pinching), which generally gave the impression of damage characteristic of immoderate sexual games, rather than serious torture or beatings. These injuries could be painful, but in any case, they did not threaten the victim’s life in any way.

The cause of death turned out to be identical in everything to that described in the case of Alan Barnes - an extensive anal trauma caused by the introduction of a large-diameter object into the rectum, such as a bottle or wide end of a baseball bat. Rough introduction of a foreign body led to rupture of rectal muscles and rectum about 8 cm long (more than 3 inches).

Considering that these are very elastic and durable fabrics, the traumatic effect should have been sharp and applied with considerable effort. It is quite possible that a bottle was partially kicked into the anus in the anus ... The way the body was subdivided in a sophisticated manner clearly showed cruelty and aggression, the death of an unknown man was clearly the result of a deliberate murder, and by no means an unsuccessful sexual experiment.

Clothes and shoes of the unknown were missing, documents, of course, too.

The fact that the body of the slain was so dismembered could, in principle, lead to a very rapid loss of the remains - small river inhabitants would destroy the flesh within a month - so the killer’s calculation was very far-sighted. But the fact that the criminal did not want to take the remains far from the city and helped dump his cargo into the river within the port of Adelaide really helped the law enforcement agencies. The bags were found very quickly - they were hardly in the water for more than a day. The time of death was determined no more than two days before the discovery of the body - i.e. Sunday afternoon on August 26, or later.

Noctec was found in the blood of the murdered, the same chloral hydrate that was found two months earlier in the blood of Alan Barnes. ...

Muir was not homosexual, on the contrary, according to the stories of friends, he was distinguished by activity in search of new women and impressions. Actually, on the day of his disappearance - on Friday, August 24 - he went exactly on a date with another new acquaintance. The “Cultural Program” suggested that the couple go to a disco bar, drink alcohol and dance there, and then, as the card goes down, he either goes to the hotel together or goes home.

Mark Langley
The lower abdomen of the deceased was cut and ... sewn with surgical thread. It was nothing like at all! Who, when and for what purpose did the surgery completely healthy 18-year-old guy?

The subsequent forensic medical examination proved that the picture of the crime, the victim of which was Mark Langley, is much more complicated than that which even the most unbridled and perverted fantasy could imagine. First of all, the young man underwent a gross anal rape with a rupture of the rectum and rectal muscles. These injuries were all reminiscent of those described by Alan Barnes and Neil Muir in 1979.

But the bodily injuries were not limited to this. The killer performed a strip operation, cut the peritoneum and removed part of the small intestine, and also made a long (about 10 cm.) Rectal incision. After that, he filled the abdominal cavity with cotton and ... stitched it using surgical suture material.

These manipulations seemed so strange that forensic experts had to assemble a real consultation in order to find an acceptable explanation of what the criminal had done and why.

The operation was a makeshift operation, but the accuracy that the “surgeon” showed was especially important (the word involuntarily has to be quoted, since in the traditional sense the surgeon is a doctor who is called to save lives, but in this case we are talking about a killer).

This man prudently pulled large blood vessels, as well as the rest of the intestine, in order to prevent its contents from entering the abdominal cavity. In addition, the offender stuffed his stomach with cotton and sewed a cut on his stomach. Obviously, all this was done in order to minimize the threat of blood stained environmental objects.

The operation was performed on a living person without proper surgical anesthesia, in a way that can't be imagined and gives rise to an association with Dr. Mengele’s experiments.

On the back and head of the murdered young man, numerous intravital bruises and skin sediments were recorded, but they did not affect the viability of Mark Langley. The cause of death was blood loss due to anal trauma and extraction of part of the intestine during surgery. The time of death was determined approximately 5 days before the discovery of the body, i.e. March 3-4. This meant that the young man was held captive for 70 to 100 hours.

Alcohol was found in the blood of the deceased (about 3 ppm), the dose of which corresponded to severe intoxication. In addition to him, in the blood there were more than once mentioned "noctec" and other powerful sedatives - "mandrax" and "rohypnol".

No less interesting for detectives was another relaxing drug found in the blood of Mark Langley - we are talking about rohypnol. This medicine also had a certain reputation in certain circles, and it was often and rightly called it "sleeping pill rapists." “Rohypnol” possessed pronounced sedative and relaxing properties; in hospitals it was often used to administer the operated patient to general anesthesia and maintain general anesthesia. Compared to the Mandrax, it was a real “heavy artillery”, the “Rohypnol” had a pronounced inhibitory effect on the central nervous system, quickly caused a short deep sleep, more like a memory failure.

The way the killer Mark Langley performed the operation, used sedative drugs, as well as the very fact of receiving such drugs at his disposal - all this led to the assumption that the criminal had a medical education and appropriate practice.

We've all got the link.

While at first glance, the Russian document looked good it's been clearly demonstrated that it can't be relied on as absolutely factually correct if interesting.

The discussion of injuries has been had many times over, a lot of people are viewing this page, possibly including the victims families, the squeamish, those educated on what torture pr0n is and wonder at what the limits here are and those that don't agree any special skill was necessary as is their right. I urge against the repetetive reposting and retelling of the methods used to cut saw or otherwise the victims simply to stress a point you appear to have made at least about thirteen times.

 

[BlueE]

From the same Russian publication (above) translated. May answer some questions that were being asked about the charges against Woodards in 2001

“R” had a regular sexual partner who, for obvious reasons, also attracted the closest attention of the police. This man's name was Stephen George Woodard, by profession he was a doctor. Woodard was one of those who provided von Einem with prescriptions for psychotropic drugs. It was not possible to attract him for this case - all the documents were drawn up in accordance with the requirements of the law, and in addition, Woodard insisted that von Einem actually suffered from insomnia for many years and he helped him purely as a doctor. In general, from this side it was not possible to "get" him.

According to transvestite informants, Woodard was very pleased to participate in von Einem's sorties, which he arranged in search of new victims. This was partly due to the fact that Stephen was 5 years younger than Bevan and therefore acted more actively and less cautiously. Police for many years studied the statistics of homosexual attacks in Adelaide and its suburbs, until finally a list of 5 juvenile youths whom Woodard raped from January 1, 1982 to August 29 of the same year was compiled. Two of the raped adolescents at the time of the commission of crimes were only 14 years old, the rest were 15-17 years old. The first attempt to hold Woodard accountable for these crimes was unsuccessful: it may seem surprising, but parents or legal representatives of minors opposed it. The police quite sensibly suggested that their intransigence was well paid for by the pedophile.

Dr. Stephen George Woodard felt deeply offended by suspicions of pedophilia, although he never denied homosexual orientation ...
The prosecutor's office, however, did not leave Woodard alone. Over the course of a decade and a half, repeated attempts have been made to persuade the victims - who had matured by that time and were fully capable - to testify against the molester. In the end, it seemed to be possible, and in 2011 the trial of the 61-year-old doctor of pedophilia began. The court attracted considerable public attention, the Adelaide gay community quite expectedly announced the persecution of the poor doctor based on sexual intolerance and bias against homophobic prosecutors. The process was postponed several times and went with a big creak.

The victims behaved rather strangely - they clearly reached some kind of compromise agreement either with Woodard himself or with some forces playing on his side. The victims admitted their homosexuality, and one of them over the past years even carried out a complex of sex-change operations and appeared in court in female form. In the end, the prosecution fell apart, the doctor seemed to blame for nothing. The victims declared complete reconciliation with the pedophile, and the fact that the molester entered into sexual relations with minors quietly turned into something secondary and as if unprincipled.

Of course, the judge’s position is also strange ... Anyway, the trial ended with a rather strange decision - Woodard was officially forbidden to provide medical services, but he remained at large and quickly left the state after the trial. In one of his interviews, Woodard, with a look of insulted innocence, stated that he was completely mistaken for the doctor who performed the abdominal operation to Mark Langley, and insisted that his knowledge and skills in the field of surgery were completely insufficient for such narrowly specialized manipulations with human body. It is difficult to say whether this statement is true, it is probably only a forensic doctor who is familiar with all the autopsy materials ...

 

[PaulSubetro]

The Antipodes Hunt

Tough reading. It's essentially the same information as Young Blood except this guy has weaved in his own theories;

The mentioned “R” was a rather wealthy man, he owned a house in East Adelaide, on the ground floor of which there was a sex toy and pr0n product store. This man also owned another large house in which he lived with his mother (like von Einem, by the way, who lived with his elderly mother). From messages from transvestite informants, the police knew that over the store there were several rooms used for sex parties with elements of BDSM games. There were a variety of machines for fixing bodies, crucifixes, cages, a large collection of lashes and other specific equipment. The informants claimed that some of the teenagers abducted on the streets of the city were raped in these rooms above the store, but were never kept in them for a long time.

He's gone from "clock store with empty room upstairs with only a mattress that had been thoroughly searched and no forensic evidence was found" to "adult store with fully fitted out bdsm dungeon that victims were taken to"

Because it's in Russian, after reading a few paragraphs I find myself starting to read it in my head in a Russian accent. Except the accent I read it in is German. I've been watching a bit of WILTY lately and find I take on this guy's accent;

 

[PaulSubetro]

We've all got the link.

While at first glance, the Russian document looked good it's been clearly demonstrated that it can't be relied on as absolutely factually correct if interesting.

He gets a lot of stuff wrong. Where Langley went missing for starters. He gets Mr B mixed up with the transgenders.

Not sure how he got the images though. I initially thought the author had to be an Adelaidean with Russian background and visited the State Library to get the pictures but when I read it I get the strong impression he doesn't really understand Adelaide as city.

He also gets stuff wrong like Muir's address. Muir lived in a doss house in the city but the author states Muir lives in the rural town that his family is from and where Muir grew up. So he has access to info but hasn't put it together properly.

 

[Bits]

It’s a strange mix of fact, deliberate mistakes added for copyright purposes, and genuine (?) errors that could easily be corrected by doing proper research. Unless someone digs up the “proper” version we’ll never know how much is deliberate.

But there is enough in there that has a ring of truth about it but isn’t available elsewhere that makes me wonder where he found his info.

 

[PaulSubetro]

The description of the surgery to remove the object inserted into Langley should leave no doubt that this is a very specialised technique from a specialised gastrointestinal surgeon. I'd say different specialty than Muir and neither GP's Millhouse or Woodard were responsible. I'm not talking about the neat sutures done with surgical thread that is usually identified.

Ok, so who is the said doctor and how come SAPOL never came across another doctor as a credible suspect other than Woodards? The same group of people were named by Mr B and named in TP's diaries. They're the same people that SAPOL had previously identified as associates of BVE. How could another doctor who would have been involved in Muir and Langley at the very least, escape the radar?


* The Russian claimed Langley was operated on alive without anaesthetic. I find this hard to believe. The Russian is not credible.

 

[Bits]

I’m assuming that surgery on a body as opposed to surgery on a live person would look different due to bruising, clotting, early changes to the tissues indicative of healing etc. That is, unless it was done very close to the time of death. Also, I assume that anaesthetic would leave traces if it had been used. There would have been thorough blood testing surely.

The Russian could be credible on this point IF there were signs of the wound being made on a live person, and there was no trace of anaesthetic found. The drugs in Langley’s system would have knocked him out, but aren’t classed as anaesthetics as far as I know, so he may technically have not had an anaesthetic but still been unconscious.

I have no idea what happened and until someone finds the autopsy report, we don’t have enough info to make the call either way.

But, if the reason was to retrieve an object that was stuck inside him, and he was already dead, why bother to shave him, stitch him up and cover the wound with a dressing?

 

[PaulSubetro]

- If the surgery were done pre-mortem then I believe it would be reported as such. All the gory details of all five murders were released to the public. There would be no reason to hold this back.
- The risk of noise created by doing this would be high
- Cutting out part of his digestive tract would probably have caused death
- The Russian claims the surgery was done without anaesthetic. How could he know this but at the same time have multiple errors elsewhere?
- What possible reason would the killers do this pre-mortem?


Why I believe the perpetrators shaved and stitched him up - I believe the person who did this was Dr Woodards. I think he liked practicing and tinkering. A practicing surgeon wouldn't need to tinker and sew him up - he doesn't need the practice.


Hypothetical: The Family want to keep Langley alive longer. SAPOL believe he was killed within 48 hours. Let's say Bevan get's his copy of Raiders of the Lost Ark stuck up Langley's bottom and needs to return it to Blockbuster before he incurs a $1 late fee. He has to get it out pronto but wants to keep him alive longer. They do the surgery and stitch him up good as new so Bevan can return the video on time and The Family can keep raping Langley. Hypothetical or not, here's where the "specialist surgeon" falls down - if the killer was a gastrointestinal surgeon, why didn't he reconnect the pipes inside (the lower intestine)?


Some of the Google searches I used:

Is bowel and intestine the same thing?
The intestine is a muscular tube which extends from the lower end of your stomach to your anus, the lower opening of the digestive tract. It is also called the bowel or bowels.

Can a human live without a small bowel?
Most people can live without a stomach or large intestine, but it is harder to live without a small intestine. When all or most of the small intestine has to be removed or stops working, nutrients must be put directly into the blood stream (intravenous or IV) in liquid form.

 

[Kurve]

What possible reason would the killers do this pre-mortem?

Jewellery, a ring slipped off possibly the twin dolphin ring stolen from Neil Muir.

I think there's two killers, one is responsible for the ott mutilations/dismemberments the other a sadist but isn't into the really messy stuff which is BVE.

 

[Hendrix27]

Jewellery, a ring slipped off possibly the twin dolphin ring stolen from Neil Muir.

I think there's two killers, one is responsible for the ott mutilations/dismemberments the other a sadist but isn't into the really messy stuff which is BVE.

I think it would of been something distinctive and traceable like a ring etc. Must of been something that could possibly identify the offender(s).

 

[Kurve]

I think it would of been something distinctive and traceable like a ring etc. Must of been something that could possibly identify the offender(s).

Yes and/or linked one of the previous murders to Langley, if so imo it would be to the mutilation/dismemberment of Muir.

 

[GreyCrow]

Pill bottle?

 

[PaulSubetro]

Jewellery, a ring slipped off possibly the twin dolphin ring stolen from Neil Muir.

I think there's two killers, one is responsible for the ott mutilations/dismemberments the other a sadist but isn't into the really messy stuff which is BVE.

But why wouldn't you just wait until after he was killed?

 

[BlueE]

Ok, so who is the said doctor and how come SAPOL never came across another doctor as a credible suspect other than Woodards? The same group of people were named by Mr B and named in TP's diaries. They're the same people that SAPOL had previously identified as associates of BVE. How could another doctor who would have been involved in Muir and Langley at the very least, escape the radar?

* The Russian claimed Langley was operated on alive without anaesthetic. I find this hard to believe. The Russian is not credible.

I'm sure parts of the Russian report were disinformation as they seem to have admitted. However what is described in this bowel resection of Mark Langley is very credible an describes the procedure detail just as it would have happened by an expert gastrointestinal surgeon under anesthetic. Doing an operation like this without anesthetic when it could have been done after death if the only purpose was to retrieve an unknown object again is like someone giving a surgical "masterclass" and Mengele like in it's experimentation.

I's absolute credible because this is a very difficult procedure in a living person as was explained to complete the operation without bleeding and it details blood vessels that were clamped to support this.

That being said, the combination of drugs found in Mark Langley's system is consistent with an expert giving an anesthetic if you didn't have access to the proper drugs in a hospital.

Who is the doctor or doctors in Neil Muir dissection and in Mark Langley's operation? GP Millhouse is correctly acquitted even though only some of the evidence was reported it was enough to realise this was well above the GP skill level among other evidence given at the trial. This was a case of using the playbook of charging a person Muir knew and was exchanging favours with. Has worked in other cases also with dodgy evidence, but not in this case.

They wanted to charge BVE with Langley's death. The medial evidence would prove it couldn't be BVE and dear "Pru" was not a reliable witness with "hearsay" protecting herself an most probably others. Woodard's was never charged for any of the murders because none of the evidence especially the medical in Langley's case would not convict him.

SO who could this or these Dr's be is a very good question? I believe in 1979 and early 80's there would only be a couple of surgeons with this skill level in Adelaide and think they would ave been looked at, but it wasn't them. Looking for someone from out of State of even from overseas. I do have a couple of likely suspects (now deceased) never associated with the Family murders but associated with other nefarious activities.

However this is not BVE or Millhouse or Woodards (despite this slime basket getting off multiple rape charges of young 12 -15 year old boys)

 

[BlueE]

But why wouldn't you just wait until after he was killed?

Filming sadistic torture pr0n and snuff???