Opinion The forward line

[jonbe54]

It needs to be recast but the question is in what way?

First and foremost of course is big Trav, he is a shadow of the player he was last year and the admittedly abysmal forward entry efforts cannot cover the fact that his confidence appears shattered and his head is just not in the game.

Trav is in a very bad place indeed so his plight is central to how we need to structure our forward line. The first question we need to ask here is can he turn it around himself or does he need a break in the magoos?

10 matches in and less goals than matches from a power forward who isn't even breaking even in the contested marking stakes is a damning statistic and certainly a powerful reason for change. I'm inclined to give him one more chance against the saints, if he can't do any good against them it's time to pull the trigger.

White too has had his problems and should not be excused from critique, his best is great but he has been inconsistent.

Both the big young rucks when forward have failed to set the world on fire and although goodish at ground level are too easily run away from at this stage.

So far that's four forward targets that aren't giving anything like the value they should, of them all White is the only one with a bit of toe so I seem to be saying we lack a bit of sting on the ground level ball which does in reality seem to be the case.

So for my opinion - bring in Karnesis and let Trav roam upfield and use his tank. Move Faz back forward as he isn't going to make it as a back despite a few serviceable games down there. Draft in Martin for Browny and start getting the ball into the hands of our good ball users going into the forward line.

This poor delivery into the forward line simply MUST stop, it needs to be a priority because it's been going on for bloody years and I for one am EVERLASTINGLY TIRED OF IT.

 

[ColinWood]

Hi Jonbe, yes something has got to give. However we had 13 different goalkickers so we need to ensure that any change to structure doesn't unwittingly turn off that tap. Our forward line is ugly and yesterday appeared unstructured. As you rightly say, delivery into the forwards is often poor. Trav is a must to play vs GWS (Kennedy, Riewoldt certainly got a confidence boost!) But I do believe it's only a matter of time before our frustrating big bloke turns it around.

Finally, sorry I know this is a bit of a sunday morning ramble! I'd leave Grundy & Witts out of this. They've got improvement in them sure, but I'm very happy with how they're developing and contributing so far. Delivery to them could improve too (how many times are they asked to mark at toe level!)

keen to hear other thoughtsthoughts on our fwd line.

 

[jonbe54]

Hi Jonbe, yes something has got to give. However we had 13 different goalkickers so we need to ensure that any change to structure doesn't unwittingly turn off that tap. Our forward line is ugly and yesterday appeared unstructured. As you rightly say, delivery into the forwards is often poor. Trav is a must to play vs GWS (Kennedy, Riewoldt certainly got a confidence boost!) But I do believe it's only a matter of time before our frustrating big bloke turns it around.

Finally, sorry I know this is a bit of a sunday morning ramble! I'd leave Grundy & Witts out of this. They've got improvement in them sure, but I'm very happy with how they're developing and contributing so far. Delivery to them could improve too (how many times are they asked to mark at toe level!)

keen to hear other thoughtsthoughts on our fwd line.

Agree on spread of goalkickers, something we have lacked - in general - for a while now. Whilst I did mention both the young rucks I didn't mean to denigrate them at all but to point out that their very understandable lack of tank and toe is a contributing factor to a forward line that appears without much focus or intent at the moment. By all means they must be perservered with.

 

[rose jam]

Forward line was good yesterday for conversion rate. Issue was West Coast got a lot of overlap run because their runners were sagging off Witts and the half forwards and providing that extra guy in space.
But worse, at stoppages we had everyone congested at the ruckman's feet and they held players outside who kept getting the easy exit.

Our number one issue is to find half forwards who can kick goals. This'll force backman to stay on them which will stop the overlap run and open up options for the midfield. On what we've got on our list our forward line should probably read;

Cloke
White/Ruckman
Reid
Elliot
Fasolo
Karnezis/Midfielder - Really hoping Karnezis can play AFL standard sort of Caracella style because that'd make a huge difference.


But Reid may also end up playing defense

 

[Big Bryza]

It's time. Unleash PK.

 

[TradeDraft]

Look’s Terrible. The 2 Keys do Sweet F**k All and it’s relied to the Small’s and the Mids to Kick Goals

 

[jonbe54]

Look for those wondering if its a bit of a flash in the pan, utube his early career before vossy sent him down. The kid had serious x factor then so it's no surprise to see him produce the goods so far in the vfl.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

I think Cloke is a victim of Buckley trying to straighten us up. Space is also at a premium for lead up and mark type plays.
In the MM years, Coke would often mark on a 45 degree angle or more because the ball would come in from wide. While the opposition was protecting the corridor, I don't remember too many balls being squared into the corridor unless we were deep in the pockets or someone had streamed into space from outside 50. So Cloke had plenty of space to lead into.
Now, as we come in through the corridor more often, players are kicking straight rather than out to space where players can run onto it. Cloke (and others) lead straight ahead and usually have someone on their hammer or we stuff up the kick.
Corridor footy doesn't spread defences unless players lead hard and in different directions. You also need more than one player to start deep. The set up may not be the best for corridor footy and big forwards to kick bags.
All of this or the forwards just don't ****ing work hard enough. Haha.

 

[Shaneprice97]

as far the defensive forwards go(Blair and Goldy) i think we will get the full reward out of there contribution once Reid is back, in saying that though im not sure if Reid will be playing forward now that Brown has been injured.

 

[soreplums]

I think Cloke is a victim of Buckley trying to straighten us up. Space is also at a premium for lead up and mark type plays.
In the MM years, Coke would often mark on a 45 degree angle or more because the ball would come in from wide. While the opposition was protecting the corridor, I don't remember too many balls being squared into the corridor unless we were deep in the pockets or someone had streamed into space from outside 50. So Cloke had plenty of space to lead into.
Now, as we come in through the corridor more often, players are kicking straight rather than out to space where players can run onto it. Cloke (and others) lead straight ahead and usually have someone on their hammer or we stuff up the kick.
Corridor footy doesn't spread defences unless players lead hard and in different directions. You also need more than one player to start deep. The set up may not be the best for corridor footy and big forwards to kick bags.
All of this or the forwards just don't ******* work hard enough. Haha.

I think you're right regarding corridor footy and how it changes/effects the leading patterns of deep forwards. But the forward line coach and players need to sum up the situation and take more responsibility for set up and leading angles during the game.

IMO playing down the corridor you need two deep forwards leading away from each other and your chf is more of a ruck-rover through the forward half of the ground as the ball will most likely be carried and kicked over his head. Traditionally, chf lead up to the wing to assist a defensive game plan as the get out of jail option from half back. When our back line is under the pump, this is what I'd like Trav to do. Lead up to the wings as an option and then feed off to an overlap runner.

All that said, our midfield struggled for two and a half quarters yesterday. Didn't win the footy on the spread, around the clearances or push back hard enough to help our backs.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

I think you're right regarding corridor footy and how it changes/effects the leading patterns of deep forwards. But the forward line coach and players need to sum up the situation and take more responsibility for set up and leading angles during the game.

IMO playing down the corridor you need two deep forwards leading away from each other and your chf is more of a ruck-rover through the forward half of the ground as the ball will most likely be carried and kicked over his head. Traditionally, chf lead up to the wing to assist a defensive game plan as the get out of jail option from half back. When our back line is under the pump, this is what I'd like Trav to do. Lead up to the wings as an option and then feed off to an overlap runner.

All that said, our midfield struggled for two and a half quarters yesterday. Didn't win the footy on the spread, around the clearances or push back hard enough to help our backs.

Yep, absolutely agree with pretty much everything. Lappin and the boys have a shit load to do. Is almost as though we either have too much space and nobody there or not enough space and everyone is there. Is it the mids and shitty options or the forwards aren't thinking enough.

 

[Big Bryza]

I think Cloke is a victim of Buckley trying to straighten us up. Space is also at a premium for lead up and mark type plays.
In the MM years, Coke would often mark on a 45 degree angle or more because the ball would come in from wide. While the opposition was protecting the corridor, I don't remember too many balls being squared into the corridor unless we were deep in the pockets or someone had streamed into space from outside 50. So Cloke had plenty of space to lead into.
Now, as we come in through the corridor more often, players are kicking straight rather than out to space where players can run onto it. Cloke (and others) lead straight ahead and usually have someone on their hammer or we stuff up the kick.
Corridor footy doesn't spread defences unless players lead hard and in different directions. You also need more than one player to start deep. The set up may not be the best for corridor footy and big forwards to kick bags.
All of this or the forwards just don't ******* work hard enough. Haha.

The main issue with Cloke is his work rate. Or lack of it. He needs to get on his bike a lot more then be currently is. Took a big interest in watching Clokey at the ground yesterday. Way too stagnant. Disappointed in his output but it's good to know we have a big ace up our sleeve because he's a star and he will come good at some point.

 

[GETSOMENUTS]

Yep, absolutely agree with pretty much everything. Lappin and the boys have a shit load to do. Is almost as though we either have too much space and nobody there or not enough space and everyone is there. Is it the mids and shitty options or the forwards aren't thinking enough.

I think its time old Skinny boy was shown the door. Our forward line has stunk for ages.
I think the relaxed wrestling rules are currently working against Cloke as umps are letting him get r*ped by defenders. I dont think Cloke coming up the ground will help him as we still need a marking target in the forward 50. We may need Cloke to be like offensive linemen in the NFL they dont get much credit for what happens but are integral to a clicking offense - if Cloke has to bang away and absorb 2 defenders, so long as we have the crumbers and are kicking a winning score so be it.

 

[blaze036]

Drop Grundy, play White as the 2nd ruck.

Forward line - Cloke Karnezis Fasolo Elliot White/Witts and a rotating mid

Our forward line will never look great while Cloke is so hopelessly out of form.

White needs to lift his game too.

Karnezis still probably a few weeks away from being able to play a full AFL game

 

[jonbe54]

Ok to continue on the same vein, with our forward line stinking it up it allows the opposition backs to sag off us and bolster their midfield numbers, which in turn puts more pressure on our mids when they do win the ball resulting in poor forward entries.

Another by product is with markedly less time spent in our forward half it places our young defense under huge pressure.

It all comes back to the forward line, we need to get it functioning again and it will then help ease other problem areas.

 

[Quicky]

The Cloke situation is a really tough one. One way or the other it is crucial he returns to form. How the club goes about trying to manipulate this who knows? Would dropping him be the key? I don't know. Perhaps it would do more harm the good. What I do know is that our forward structure crumbles without him there. It would be a huge risk to drop him. I think Reid's return is really critical just to give us that extra target up there.

 

[Adz]

Time to #SackLappin

 

[blaze036]

Time to #SackLappin

Our structure only looks crap because Cloke is playing crap and White is hot and cold.

He also doesn't have a small defensive forward like sinclair available either

 

[Adz]

Our structure only looks crap because Cloke is playing crap and White is hot and cold.

He also doesn't have a small defensive forward like sinclair available either

Our forward line is one of the least efficient in the comp, not matter what SPIN you put on it.

 

[blaze036]

Our forward line is one of the least efficient in the comp, not matter what SPIN you put on it.

Coincidently we are also one of the least accurate teams in front of goals...

Not exactly the fault of structure though

 

[MightyPies1]

One thing I will say, I haven't seen a game where so many goals kicked, crumbed, snapped in general play from a Collingwood side since the days we Neon Leon, Didak, Dick and Medhurst running around. They nailed all our quick snap shots, Blair included, definitely a get out of jail win was this game.