The fundamental structure of our democracy works

[Gethelred]

Given that so much of this board is concerned with discussing things in a negative way - and that I've thought, since the very beginnings of the pandemic, that this would be a test of our systems and our government - I thought this would be a useful time to discuss how despite how shithouse the Victorian outbreak has been managed, the nature of the Australian Federation has unequivocally demonstrated that it works.

Covid has exposed weaknesses in Australia's political system but at a fundamental level it’s holding up | Peter Lewis

While we may not like the place we are in, the majority of us seem to trust the government and media to keep us in the loop

www.theguardian.com

We're not out of the woods. There's plenty of issues to do with the foreign affairs and the economy; there's a great deal of work to be done. But while this is not a celebration, the degree to which we here have a compromise between not actively shooting or beating the citizenry and avoiding mass outbreaks is worthy of note.

The power divide between the states and the federal government, as inefficient as it is, seems to be bearing fruit, at least in this moment.

 

[Caesar]

It is working alright at the moment. I am a bit concerned about the way power seems to be moving.

The rise of the National Cabinet as a significant power base is IMO not a good thing for democracy. COAG may have had its problems but at least it was transparent. There are a lot of significant decisions coming out of the national cabinet meetings, and most of us can only guess at how they are being debated, on what basis decisions are being made, and where our Premiers stand. Collective responsibility means diffused accountability.

The aggressive asserting of border rights by various states on health grounds is also something to be cautious of. There is no guarantee that someone like McGowan will go back into his box when the immediate imperative passes. Biosecurity has the potential to become more of a pretext for fragmentation of the federation than a justification.

Our constitution does afford a great deal of flexibility to our governments in coping with crises such as these, which is a good thing, but the flip side is that it is very easy for them to take longer term advantage.

In general I expect that there will be an erosion of freedoms to come out of this crisis, similar to what we saw post-September 11.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Given that so much of this board is concerned with discussing things in a negative way - and that I've thought, since the very beginnings of the pandemic, that this would be a test of our systems and our government - I thought this would be a useful time to discuss how despite how shithouse the Victorian outbreak has been managed, the nature of the Australian Federation has unequivocally demonstrated that it works.

Covid has exposed weaknesses in Australia's political system but at a fundamental level it’s holding up | Peter Lewis

While we may not like the place we are in, the majority of us seem to trust the government and media to keep us in the loop

www.theguardian.com

We're not out of the woods. There's plenty of issues to do with the foreign affairs and the economy; there's a great deal of work to be done. But while this is not a celebration, the degree to which we here have a compromise between not actively shooting or beating the citizenry and avoiding mass outbreaks is worthy of note.

The power divide between the states and the federal government, as inefficient as it is, seems to be bearing fruit, at least in this moment.

Royal commission lawyers lay out potentially 'catastrophic consequences' of Lawyer X scandal

Nicola Gobbo, the prolific police informer who has brought Victoria's justice system to its knees, may have tarnished the legal case of notorious Melbourne gangster Tony Mokbel, according to royal commission lawyers.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Patrick Bullet]

It is working alright at the moment. I am a bit concerned about the way power seems to be moving.

The rise of the National Cabinet as a significant power base is IMO not a good thing for democracy. COAG may have had its problems but at least it was transparent. There are a lot of significant decisions coming out of the national cabinet meetings, and most of us can only guess at how they are being debated, on what basis decisions are being made, and where our Premiers stand. Collective responsibility means diffused accountability.

The aggressive asserting of border rights by various states on health grounds is also something to be cautious of. There is no guarantee that someone like McGowan will go back into his box when the immediate imperative passes. Biosecurity has the potential to become more of a pretext for fragmentation of the federation than a justification.

Our constitution does afford a great deal of flexibility to our governments in coping with crises such as these, which is a good thing, but the flip side is that it is very easy for them to take longer term advantage.

In general I expect that there will be an erosion of freedoms to come out of this crisis, similar to what we saw post-September 11.

Agree regarding National Cabinet. Seems efficient, but a little too closed. I hate to think what it could become like if all the State, Territory, and Federal governments were from the same party.

 

[tandino]

In general I expect that there will be an erosion of freedoms to come out of this crisis, similar to what we saw post-September 11.

I think this is pretty much bang on the money.

 

[Number37]

Given that so much of this board is concerned with discussing things in a negative way - and that I've thought, since the very beginnings of the pandemic, that this would be a test of our systems and our government - I thought this would be a useful time to discuss how despite how shithouse the Victorian outbreak has been managed, the nature of the Australian Federation has unequivocally demonstrated that it works.

Covid has exposed weaknesses in Australia's political system but at a fundamental level it’s holding up | Peter Lewis

While we may not like the place we are in, the majority of us seem to trust the government and media to keep us in the loop

www.theguardian.com

We're not out of the woods. There's plenty of issues to do with the foreign affairs and the economy; there's a great deal of work to be done. But while this is not a celebration, the degree to which we here have a compromise between not actively shooting or beating the citizenry and avoiding mass outbreaks is worthy of note.

The power divide between the states and the federal government, as inefficient as it is, seems to be bearing fruit, at least in this moment.

Andrew Clark likes this.

 

[Seeds]

Given that so much of this board is concerned with discussing things in a negative way - and that I've thought, since the very beginnings of the pandemic, that this would be a test of our systems and our government - I thought this would be a useful time to discuss how despite how shithouse the Victorian outbreak has been managed, the nature of the Australian Federation has unequivocally demonstrated that it works.

Covid has exposed weaknesses in Australia's political system but at a fundamental level it’s holding up | Peter Lewis

While we may not like the place we are in, the majority of us seem to trust the government and media to keep us in the loop

www.theguardian.com

We're not out of the woods. There's plenty of issues to do with the foreign affairs and the economy; there's a great deal of work to be done. But while this is not a celebration, the degree to which we here have a compromise between not actively shooting or beating the citizenry and avoiding mass outbreaks is worthy of note.

The power divide between the states and the federal government, as inefficient as it is, seems to be bearing fruit, at least in this moment.

Whats happening with the states is a disgrace. Our system has failed. Peoples lives have been utterly ruined by states playing the fear mongering trumpesque populist card.

An appropriately monitored national hot spot system for lockdowns should of always been the approach. More effective and efficient at stoping spread of viruses.

we are currently no longer australians but citizens of states. Covid has shown states need to be abolished.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Whats happening with the states is a disgrace. Our system has failed. Peoples lives have been utterly ruined by states playing the fear mongering trumpesque populist card.

An appropriately monitored national hot spot system for lockdowns should of always been the approach. More effective and efficient at stoping spread of viruses.

we are currently no longer australians but citizens of states. Covid has shown states need to be abolished.

State blockades have helped keep this issue in Vic and NSW

Ask people in Qld and WA what they think of hard borders right now

 

[Seeds]

State blockades have helped keep this issue in Vic and NSW

Ask people in Qld and WA what they think of hard borders right now

there is no reason why it had to be done with such a blunt blade at state borders. It cut communities in half even though there were no cases. people living on the gold coast cant travel 5km south. But can travel 1000 km north. Its illogical. South australians cant trade or travel to WA even though both regions have no cases. Its illogical.

a properly implemented hot sot approach would of been both more effective and more efficient. Less pain for more gain. It would of resulted in less spread of the virus and far far less mental and economic problems.

 

[Gethelred]

Whats happening with the states is a disgrace. Our system has failed. Peoples lives have been utterly ruined by states playing the fear mongering trumpesque populist card.

An appropriately monitored national hot spot system for lockdowns should of always been the approach. More effective and efficient at stoping spread of viruses.

we are currently no longer australians but citizens of states. Covid has shown states need to be abolished.

It depends.

Is this the sort of stance you take in your threads, in which you take and argue something so absurd out of a combination of boredom and a desire to be a devil's advocate that you are quite thoroughly entertaining, and the argument itself is worthwhile if only to watch you twist tradition notions of logic into pretzels? Or is this something you actually think?

Because your stance here is only worth arguing with if you're in earnest, or at least as earnest as one gets on the SRP.

 

[Caesar]

Agree regarding National Cabinet. Seems efficient, but a little too closed. I hate to think what it could become like if all the State, Territory, and Federal governments were from the same party.

I don’t think party really matters. Wheeling and dealing seems to mostly be about personal relationships.

Andrews and Morrison have mostly avoided attacking each other over hotel quarantine/aged care. Word around the traps is because they are aligned within the National Cabinet.

It makes it even harder to know who is holding who accountable (if anyone).

 

[Messenger]

there is no reason why it had to be done with such a blunt blade at state borders. It cut communities in half even though there were no cases. people living on the gold coast cant travel 5km south. But can travel 1000 km north. Its illogical. South australians cant trade or travel to WA even though both regions have no cases. Its illogical.

a properly implemented hot sot approach would of been both more effective and more efficient. Less pain for more gain. It would of resulted in less spread of the virus and far far less mental and economic problems.

Absolutely spot on. The situation in Albury/Woodonga and at Coolangatta has been poorly managed. Cross border service provision has been badly disrupted.

No reason there can’t be a travel bubble for SA/WA/TAS/NT.

 

[Seeds]

It depends.

Is this the sort of stance you take in your threads, in which you take and argue something so absurd out of a combination of boredom and a desire to be a devil's advocate that you are quite thoroughly entertaining, and the argument itself is worthwhile if only to watch you twist tradition notions of logic into pretzels? Or is this something you actually think?

Because your stance here is only worth arguing with if you're in earnest, or at least as earnest as one gets on the SRP.

How is it absurd? Ive stated my reasons. Ive used argument. your just called it absurd like thats making some kind of point with zero reasoning. Its not how we gain knowledge.

north nsw coast and the gold coast are a single community. They should be treated as such. Operwte under the same restrictions. Sa and wa should not be cut off from each other. It has zero benefit and plenty of costs.

 

[Power Raid]

Given that so much of this board is concerned with discussing things in a negative way - and that I've thought, since the very beginnings of the pandemic, that this would be a test of our systems and our government - I thought this would be a useful time to discuss how despite how shithouse the Victorian outbreak has been managed, the nature of the Australian Federation has unequivocally demonstrated that it works.

Covid has exposed weaknesses in Australia's political system but at a fundamental level it’s holding up | Peter Lewis

While we may not like the place we are in, the majority of us seem to trust the government and media to keep us in the loop

www.theguardian.com

We're not out of the woods. There's plenty of issues to do with the foreign affairs and the economy; there's a great deal of work to be done. But while this is not a celebration, the degree to which we here have a compromise between not actively shooting or beating the citizenry and avoiding mass outbreaks is worthy of note.

The power divide between the states and the federal government, as inefficient as it is, seems to be bearing fruit, at least in this moment.

100%

I would trade efficiency for effectiveness any day.

The demarcation of power needs to be enshrined and respected. That’s why we are one of the greatest nations on the planet.

 

[Seeds]

100%

I would trade efficiency for effectiveness any day.

The demarcation of power needs to be enshrined and respected. That’s why we are one of the greatest nations on the planet.

the most effective way to stop car crash deaths is to reduce speed limits to 20kms per hour. Its easily the most effective approach but completely inefficient.

decisions always have to balance efficiency and effectiveness. To say you favour one over the other is idiotic.

 

[Power Raid]

Whats happening with the states is a disgrace. Our system has failed. Peoples lives have been utterly ruined by states playing the fear mongering trumpesque populist card.

An appropriately monitored national hot spot system for lockdowns should of always been the approach. More effective and efficient at stoping spread of viruses.

we are currently no longer australians but citizens of states. Covid has shown states need to be abolished.

The high court will sort this out.

Seeing a return to governments respecting the democracy, the constitution, the demarcation of power and the rights of citizens.

Consider the action of rogue governments being corrected by the courts a speed bump rather than a system failure.

 

[Run n Spread]

The high court will sort this out.

Seeing a return to governments respecting the democracy, the constitution, the demarcation of power and the rights of citizens.

Consider the action of rogue governments being corrected by the courts a speed bump rather than a system failure.

How and when? Palmer's case? Fallen off the radar. To spite that for something like this courts are an inefficient process. There will need to be an action taken and steps which could take years before this gets a hearing in the High Court.

 

[Run n Spread]

Whats happening with the states is a disgrace. Our system has failed. Peoples lives have been utterly ruined by states playing the fear mongering trumpesque populist card.

An appropriately monitored national hot spot system for lockdowns should of always been the approach. More effective and efficient at stoping spread of viruses.

we are currently no longer australians but citizens of states. Covid has shown states need to be abolished.

Don't necessarily disagree with you but can't see how this happens.
As Australians your rights are protected by provisions in the Commonwealth and under the Australian Citizenship Act. We are also a signatory to the Human Rights provisions.

But that's about it. Specifically as Australian Citizens we have very few "rights" per say.

While you talk about state division closest would come is:
Section 117: A subject of the Queen, resident in any State, shall not be subject in any other State to any disability or discrimination which would not be equally applicable to him if he were a subject of the Queen resident in such other State.

Now technically if the Feds declared a State of Emergency/Disaster over Covid then your hop spot would apply imo and state regulations would not be the dictate. However this hasn't really been done for political expediency this has been left to the States to deal with which is why you have all the premiers carrying on as they are.

So it's left to states to make laws applicable to their state (as they can do) under their enshrined constitutions. Which basically offer less rights. Victoria in particular can virtually do whatever the * it wants and its perfectly legal.

I suppose if you want to move into NSW you could argue S117 but border closures are done by the states. And states make different laws (criminal for example) that differ in each state. Or S92 which is "intercourse" between the states meaning freedom of association.

 

[Run n Spread]

The high court will sort this out.

Seeing a return to governments respecting the democracy, the constitution, the demarcation of power and the rights of citizens.

Consider the action of rogue governments being corrected by the courts a speed bump rather than a system failure.

Only way I can see it is if someone takes an Infringement to court or business takes action and the High Court deems this illegal.

Few problems with that:
-Not many have the time or money to go to the High Court.
- The Feds aren't actually doing anything or intervening in any case. So it's left to the states.

 

[Gethelred]

How is it absurd? Ive stated my reasons. Ive used argument. your just called it absurd like thats making some kind of point with zero reasoning. Its not how we gain knowledge.

Because it's not worth my time to argue with your insincerity.

I mean, don't get me wrong, Seeds; your particular breed of ridiculousness is entertaining to view. I don't see the point, but you keep being your unique self. But I get the impression that at least half the time when you take these stances, you do so in order to see how many responses you get. I'm not there for that kind of vanity.

north nsw coast and the gold coast are a single community. They should be treated as such. Operwte under the same restrictions. Sa and wa should not be cut off from each other. It has zero benefit and plenty of costs.

The question you need to ask is whether these impediments to free movement are temporary or permanent. An inability to modify any given system without violence is a sign of excessive rigidity; an inability to hold a comfortable status quo that maximises output is the complete opposite.

What I'm pointing to with this thread is that we seem somewhat to have lucked into a structure of overlapping yet distinct responsibility sets that we are neither inflexible or stagnant; we can shut down movement in the event it becomes essential (under social distancing/mass outbreak of disease requirements) and we can do so without the complete destruction of lives or the economy (yet).

It. Works. Sometimes, it's good to celebrate when something functions as intended, instead of constantly incessantly bitching.

 

[Run n Spread]

Although my last few posts deal specifically with Covid on the issue of Federation I think we need a Bill of Rights.
As in unalienable rock solid. The actual legal protections we enjoy as Australians are few and far between. A few sections of the Constitution and the Citizenship act which is more about becoming a citizen.

Now as to the Power distribution between the states and Feds ordinarily I think it works OK. You can't have the Feds run everything but nor can you have states as their own fiefdoms. Especially in a country as large and with such diverse conditions as Australia.

This is where a bill of rights helps. States are more administrators. They run the day to day (hospitals, schools, police etc) as this is more boots on the ground type work that can't really be done from Canberra.
Where Federation comes in is to offer legal protection and fair treatment. Stuff like tax, defense, economic policy and direction are more macro issues that require an overall response. And ensure we are consistent. Where we go wrong is we seem to lack oversight and there can be room for a power grab or cross confusion. i.e. States run hospitals but not aged care. Or states = schools but government tertiary.
A bill of rights would give clear legal rights in terms of (health treatment, legal rights, standards of care, education etc).

 

[Power Raid]

Only way I can see it is if someone takes an Infringement to court or business takes action and the High Court deems this illegal.

Few problems with that:
-Not many have the time or money to go to the High Court.
- The Feds aren't actually doing anything or intervening in any case. So it's left to the states.

I don’t like Clive and I believe his motives are wrong but it brings the issue to court to test the legality.

The feds have been piss weak and should have lead this high court test rather than leave it to clive. Instead they’ve hid to preserve their jobs.

 

[Power Raid]

How and when? Palmer's case? Fallen off the radar. To spite that for something like this courts are an inefficient process. There will need to be an action taken and steps which could take years before this gets a hearing in the High Court.

October or November from memory

 

[Power Raid]

the most effective way to stop car crash deaths is to reduce speed limits to 20kms per hour. Its easily the most effective approach but completely inefficient.

decisions always have to balance efficiency and effectiveness. To say you favour one over the other is idiotic.

3 months is nothing and it would have been less if the electorate was motivated by success rather than fear

 

[Power Raid]

Only way I can see it is if someone takes an Infringement to court or business takes action and the High Court deems this illegal.

Few problems with that:
-Not many have the time or money to go to the High Court.
- The Feds aren't actually doing anything or intervening in any case. So it's left to the states.

What’s interesting is if Clive wins and the fact WAs premier has admitted he’s acted illegally. Does that raise the issue of false imprisonment for all the states who have arrested, handcuffed and imprisoned citizens?

An mistake is a mistake but wilful disregard for the constitution that results in unlawful imprisonments will occur damages at the very least.

Further the state of emergency can’t be hidden behind as this is a criminal issue rather than civil.