The future of Local Geelong Footy

[muttonchops]

There was a very interesting article in the Addy yesterday regarding the future of football in Geelong .It covered a wide range of issues such as promotion/relegation, player payments and expanding participation focussing on population growth areas.

The article is linked here http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/article/2010/03/04/151621_geelong_sports.html

The article in the paper is a bit more in depth but it certainly raises some interestin gissues for discussion.

 

[tim finnigan]

I for one cant understand why the 3 leagues across the region cant move into the 21st century in regards to promotion/relegation.. It works in Melbourne so there is no reason it cant work here. Why should clubs like Leopold/West/Grovey and nowdays St Albans North Shore be allowed to continue serving up year after year of mediocrity without threat of relegation whilst clubs like Ocean Grove/Ammo's/Torquay/Thomson/East and Bannockburn have been consistently good for years but never had the oppurtunity to better themselves in a higher grade?

One reason it wouldn't work is because pig headed GFL clubs wont except that they deserve relegation despite being ordinary for years, however if Football Geelong or probably more importanly the VCFL actually stepped in and told the clubs that promotion/relegation is coming and to except it that we'd be alot better off.

Surely the time has come or am I the only one who thinks it???

 

[gdfl4eva]

i 4 1 wanna c this happen, but im pretty sure 1 of the biggest problems is the gdfl owning buckleys and them not wanting share it with the other leagues. but they hav 2 make this happen surely, it would be 1 of the best things 2 happen 2 local football in a very long time

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

I for one cant understand why the 3 leagues across the region cant move into the 21st century in regards to promotion/relegation.. It works in Melbourne so there is no reason it cant work here. Why should clubs like Leopold/West/Grovey and nowdays St Albans North Shore be allowed to continue serving up year after year of mediocrity without threat of relegation whilst clubs like Ocean Grove/Ammo's/Torquay/Thomson/East and Bannockburn have been consistently good for years but never had the oppurtunity to better themselves in a higher grade?

One reason it wouldn't work is because pig headed GFL clubs wont except that they deserve relegation despite being ordinary for years, however if Football Geelong or probably more importanly the VCFL actually stepped in and told the clubs that promotion/relegation is coming and to except it that we'd be alot better off.

Surely the time has come or am I the only one who thinks it???

How do you know it's just the GFL?

If i remember rightly the GDFL as an organisation is richer than the GFL.

Maybe they would object to being disbanded and being made into one big super league due to the ramifications it would have on their ruling body.

 

[muttonchops]

I for one cant understand why the 3 leagues across the region cant move into the 21st century in regards to promotion/relegation.. It works in Melbourne so there is no reason it cant work here. Why should clubs like Leopold/West/Grovey and nowdays St Albans North Shore be allowed to continue serving up year after year of mediocrity without threat of relegation whilst clubs like Ocean Grove/Ammo's/Torquay/Thomson/East and Bannockburn have been consistently good for years but never had the oppurtunity to better themselves in a higher grade?

One reason it wouldn't work is because pig headed GFL clubs wont except that they deserve relegation despite being ordinary for years, however if Football Geelong or probably more importanly the VCFL actually stepped in and told the clubs that promotion/relegation is coming and to except it that we'd be alot better off.

Surely the time has come or am I the only one who thinks it???

You hit the spot there TF. You are exactly right. The key reason promotion relegation wont work is because certain GFL clubs couldnt take being relegated. Even though most people know it is the best thing for footy in the region.

 

[tim finnigan]

i 4 1 wanna c this happen, but im pretty sure 1 of the biggest problems is the gdfl owning buckleys and them not wanting share it with the other leagues. but they hav 2 make this happen surely, it would be 1 of the best things 2 happen 2 local football in a very long time

This may be true but surely the GDFL would have to do something if there clubs come to them and said we wont the opportunity to better ourselves a higher level?? Im sure clubs like Thomson and East would be prepared to sacrifice a bit of extra money from buckleys for the chance to show the geelong region that they can be more than just a strong GDFL club.

 

[TheFootyWhisperer]

If relegation was to happen, what would happen to the reserves and 18s of that club? Like on a Saturday you have all them playing together at the one place against the same team usually but if your seniors r performing well do the reserves and 18s also get promoted/relegated with them?

 

[gdfl4eva]

If relegation was to happen, what would happen to the reserves and 18s of that club? Like on a Saturday you have all them playing together at the one place against the same team usually but if your seniors r performing well do the reserves and 18s also get promoted/relegated with them?

yes it would be 2 confusing if each side was different

 

[tim finnigan]

If relegation was to happen, what would happen to the reserves and 18s of that club? Like on a Saturday you have all them playing together at the one place against the same team usually but if your seniors r performing well do the reserves and 18s also get promoted/relegated with them?

Promotion/relegation is determined by where the senior side finishes. For example if North Shore finish on the bottom in the seniors, then the seniors/reserves/u18's and netball section would all go to division 2.

It generally works well in the Melbourne comps although sides will generally struggle 1st year up in a higher grade, if you mangage to avoid relegation in your 1st year up then you can really start to build a platform that'll hopefully keep your club in the higher division for awhile.. Classic example is Stoke City in the English premier league.. Managed to avoid relegation in there 1st year in the top flight and now look like establishing themselves as a middle of the table premier league club.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Promotion/relegation is determined by where the senior side finishes. For example if North Shore finish on the bottom in the seniors, then the seniors/reserves/u18's and netball section would all go to division 2.

It generally works well in the Melbourne comps although sides will generally struggle 1st year up in a higher grade, if you mangage to avoid relegation in your 1st year up then you can really start to build a platform that'll hopefully keep your club in the higher division for awhile.. Classic example is Stoke City in the English premier league.. Managed to avoid relegation in there 1st year in the top flight and now look like establishing themselves as a middle of the table premier league club.

That system is flawed big time.

There has to be other factors considered rather than the whole basis of promotion being based soley on the senior mens football side.

You could effectively send the worst side in division 2 netball up into division 1 because of something unrelated to netball i.e football.

That does nothing for the netball competition and only benefits the football.


The netball league would have to be a seperate entity imo.

And by doign that you lose alot of the club spirit that goes with ahving football and netball being played near each other on the same day.

 

[tim finnigan]

That system is flawed big time.

There has to be other factors considered rather than the whole basis of promotion being based soley on the senior mens football side.

You could effectively send the worst side in division 2 netball up into division 1 because of something unrelated to netball i.e football.

That does nothing for the netball competition and only benefits the football.


The netball league would have to be a seperate entity imo.

And by doign that you lose alot of the club spirit that goes with ahving football and netball being played near each other on the same day.

Well im not sure how the netball section would work as Melbourne leagues dont have a netball section, but in football terms if the senior side wins the flag then reserves and 18's follow them up regardless of where they finished.

Or would you prefer the brilliant system that the GCA uses which saw Bell Post Hill relegated to div 2 after there first X1 had played in the previous 2 grand finals??

At the end of the day senior football is the prioritie of every football club in Geelong so promotion/relegation should go on where the senior side finishes... Does Grovedale deserve to stay in division 1 if there 3 football sides finished on the bottom but there 'b' grade netball side made the finals??? Wouldn't think so...

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Well im not sure how the netball section would work as Melbourne leagues dont have a netball section, but in football terms if the senior side wins the flag then reserves and 18's follow them up regardless of where they finished.

Or would you prefer the brilliant system that the GCA uses which saw Bell Post Hill relegated to div 2 after there first X1 had played in the previous 2 grand finals??

At the end of the day senior football is the prioritie of every football club in Geelong so promotion/relegation should go on where the senior side finishes... Does Grovedale deserve to stay in division 1 if there 3 football sides finished on the bottom but there 'b' grade netball side made the finals??? Wouldn't think so...

No I don't think the cricket model is ideal either.

Having played cricket with St Peters for many years I know all too well the pitfalls of that system.

At the end of the day the priority isnt just the senior mens team anymore imo.

The netball aspect of each club is now probably more important for the clubs finacial well being than the football side of things.

They bring in money, but use up far less of it to run their side of the business.

Aligning netball to football clubs was a masterstorke I feel and it probably helped secure a few clubs futures.

By putting forth the model you think should be implemented you encourage clubs to only concentrate on the senior aspect of their side and the rest is irrelevent.

That's not healthy for the club itself or the overall competition.


And of course Grovedale wouldnt stay up if their 3 football teams finished bottom.

But saying a club should go up because one team finished top is pretty silly too.

 

[tim finnigan]

Im not disagreeing with you at all about the netball section joining the football section.
What sort of model would you propose then??? Any model will be nearly 95% based on how the senior side fares. Leagues in Melbourne and for that matter any sporting league around the world that i can think of promotion/relegation is done by where the senior side finished on the ladder.

Can you please explain why a model that works all around the world wont work in good old sleepy hollow???

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Im not disagreeing with you at all about the netball section joining the football section.
What sort of model would you propose then??? Any model will be nearly 95% based on how the senior side fares. Leagues in Melbourne and for that matter any sporting league around the world that i can think of promotion/relegation is done by where the senior side finished on the ladder.

Can you please explain why a model that works all around the world wont work in good old sleepy hollow???

Well you can't base it on your lower graded teams so chuck their results out as a factor.

So prehaps base it on 3 things.

Seniors/Reserves football, senior netball side.

The club wins the mens seniors and their reserves and netball teams make the finals = promotion

That way you are ensuring with them going up a division their seniors have shown they have depth and that their netballers are amongst the better sides in division 2 netball.

I'd say that's a pretty obtainable goal for a club with ambition.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Im not disagreeing with you at all about the netball section joining the football section.
What sort of model would you propose then??? Any model will be nearly 95% based on how the senior side fares. Leagues in Melbourne and for that matter any sporting league around the world that i can think of promotion/relegation is done by where the senior side finished on the ladder.

Can you please explain why a model that works all around the world wont work in good old sleepy hollow???

The models you are suggesting work on a one team per club principle.

In regards to your Stoke City reference.

English football at its reserve level doesnt play the same teams as it does in the premier league.

They will play a completely different set of teams based on geographical location.

Same again for their youth teams.

If we applied that system to local footy it could ruin the fabric of the local game.

 

[tim finnigan]

Yep your right about the English football mate was just trying to get my point across about a clubs senior side being the main prioritiy. Junior football in Geelong isn't affiliated with the senior competetions so that wouldn't be a factor in any desicion.

Perhaps the best way to do it would be to have the club championship, which im pretty runs as follows...
10 points per senior win
5 points per reserve win
3 per under 18 win
Plus however the netball club championship is done. At the end of the season add up each clubs total club championship points and the club with the highest/lowest points tally gets promoted/relegated.

The only problem i can see with this model is that it can eliminate the need for a finals series. For example what happens if Torquay win the div 2 club championship but Ocean Grove win the div 2 senior grand final??

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Exactly.

I agree with you that the top senior mens team needs to go up.

But I think that should only happen if the rest of their club is strong.

Refering back to English football as a basis for an idea.

They have a system for their lower leagues where by if they are to be promoted into the football leagues from the conferences they need to meet certain strict criteria.

If they don't fit the criteria they dont get promoted and the runner up can be promoted if they mee tthe criteria.

If neither do then no team is promoted.

 

[FalconsScout]

I think the current league make ups are ok, its really only the GDFL clubs being bunched close together out East that is causing an issue, if you look clearly at junior teams form these lets say 4 clubs (east, thomson, newcomb and albans) then you can clearly see the GFL club in that group is on track well and truely and surviving without GDFL handouts

 

[The Frogman]

It is unrealistic to try base a prom/rel model on the epl (going on club championship) as they only have a season to base it on. Top/Bottom 3. whereas we play finals so if the best team in the league falls over in the finals do they still go up, Or does the premier have claims. And i think naturally, that in terms of football, If you have a strong seniors team, the reserves will most likely be strong aswell. And the rest of the club will build on that. IMO if that makes any sense.

 

[Monniehawk]

No I don't think the cricket model is ideal either.
Having played cricket with St Peters for many years I know all too well the pitfalls of that system.
At the end of the day the priority isnt just the senior mens team anymore imo.
The netball aspect of each club is now probably more important for the clubs finacial well being than the football side of things.
They bring in money, but use up far less of it to run their side of the business.
Aligning netball to football clubs was a masterstorke I feel and it probably helped secure a few clubs futures.
By putting forth the model you think should be implemented you encourage clubs to only concentrate on the senior aspect of their side and the rest is irrelevent.
That's not healthy for the club itself or the overall competition.
And of course Grovedale wouldnt stay up if their 3 football teams finished bottom.
But saying a club should go up because one team finished top is pretty silly too.

Hmmm.. the relegation system in Metro and other country leagues is based on the performance of the senior footy and it works very well. I have never seen the problem of concentrating on the senior side to be an issue of any substance.
Of course, clubs don't want to go down, but they accept their fate and nearly always use the opportunity to rebuild. Promoted clubs get a chance to develop, often in accordance with the change in demographics.
For example Narre Warren (MPNFL - Casey Division) is now in vital growth corridor with rapidly developing housing, industrial and commercial areas, so recently their footy club has become immensely powerful as result. They had to move on.
While metro clubs do not have the issue of the Netball promotion, other multi-divisional VCFL leagues do and it works very well. Everyone accepts that the senior footy is the determinant for promotion. Sometimes additional issues are factored into the regulations: i.e. viable u18, Reserves side, facilities or club admin, but generally it is only the 1st footy side that provides the criteria.
Check out the YVMDFL (2 divs) and MPNFL (3 divs) which both have netball attached. Their proximity to Melbourne makes them almost default metro leagues, too. The Yarra Valley is a township-based comp which has a conventional relegation system based on senior footy and the MPNFL has recently regionalised (sort of) their's, although they still move clubs around to suit the balance.
The old Geelong footy consisted of three separate leagues acting almost as 'divisions', being Hurst, Woolworth and Jarman Cups, where clubs could apply to move up or down. Maybe the MPNFL model fits closer to you guys with the Geelong based teams breaking into a Div 1 and 2 and Bellarine running as a regional division. You could still allow for movement between them if you like. I'm sure some of the BFL clubs have some designs on moving 'up', if given the mobility.
Since the inception of 'Football Geelong', you now have an umbrella organisation that can thrash out the issues for the benefit of all. It seems ideally situated.

 

[soaringeagle]

Yep your right about the English football mate was just trying to get my point across about a clubs senior side being the main prioritiy. Junior football in Geelong isn't affiliated with the senior competetions so that wouldn't be a factor in any desicion.

Perhaps the best way to do it would be to have the club championship, which im pretty runs as follows...
10 points per senior win
5 points per reserve win
3 per under 18 win
Plus however the netball club championship is done. At the end of the season add up each clubs total club championship points and the club with the highest/lowest points tally gets promoted/relegated.

The only problem i can see with this model is that it can eliminate the need for a finals series. For example what happens if Torquay win the div 2 club championship but Ocean Grove win the div 2 senior grand final??

That is the only way this could work, because some clubs may have weak senior sides but a strong under 18 team, which wont work well for the football development of the youngsters if they are forced to play against second rate teams in a lower league. The only way you can fairly and accurately judge which teams are up to it is by judging the club on a whole on not just parts of it.

 

[tim finnigan]

Thought I'd go back into this thread and re open the debate regarding promotion/relegation.

I believe all u18 footy in the region will be graded from next year and there is still clubs struggling big time in the different leagues.

Has people's thoughts changed now or should everything remain as is?

My opinion? Something's gotta change..

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

I heard something about a proposal being put forth that the age for u/18 comp is raised to 18 1/2 and teams limited to 2 teams at a certain age groups.

Anyone else heard something along these lines?

 

[tim finnigan]

I heard something about a proposal being put forth that the age for u/18 comp is raised to 18 1/2 and teams limited to 2 teams at a certain age groups.

Anyone else heard something along these lines?

Wasn't it already 18.5? I know it was in my last year of u18's in 2004 or did has it been scrapped again and now being restored?

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

No idea to be honest. Been a looong time since I played u/18's.