The future of our democracy

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Sep 22, 2011
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I’m sure political crises get declared somewhere in Australia on a daily basis, but I’m interested in people’s thoughts here.

What are we witnessing in terms of the life cycle of democracy as we know it?

Relax, despite the thread title I don’t want to be too dramatic, it’s more a philosophical discussion. Just a chat about it.

I raise it because I think the quarantine situation is a very, very interesting stage upon which our political actors have been placed. State, Federal, Liberal, Labor, whatever.

Because we knew - well over a year ago - that we needed dedicated quarantine facilities on an island where the only way the virus can get in is through people arriving.

It’s not a difficult task with the resources a country like ours has. Nor is it expensive - especially in relation to the havoc COVID could wreak on our economy.

I’m not sure any stable person would disagree so far. There’s nothing controversial about any of that. Risk / benefit wise, it’s a simple no-brainer.

So it’s actually incredible, when you think about, that nobody has done it. Not the states. Not the federals. It just hasn’t been done.

And it’s pretty bloody clear that’s because nobody wants to be responsible for it.

So it gets us back to the basic question: why do we have governments? If we elect them to lead and manage things for the public, for all of us, then fine.

Yet we now in a situation, created by a multitude of factors, where they’re actively avoiding doing just that? Actively abrogating their very purpose for electoral reasons?

Going so “small target” because of the media and public focus environment that they’re, quite simply, not fulfilling the purpose for which they’re meant to exist?

And what does that mean? Is it so dysfunctional - or could it soon be - that it does real damage? This quarantine thing got me thinking about it. It. Just. Hasn’t. Been. Done.

It’s a wider discussion I think, this quarantine issue is purely an example, so don’t really want to get too bogged down in it. Nor is it really a Liberal v Labor thing imo. I think there’s plenty of threads for that.

What’s the future? Is change even possible? Do we need another model, such as public representatives similar to a jury duty system (obviously you’d need some form of basic education or qualification to opt in, but you’re chosen at random). Do we simply need very long electoral terms so that governments can actually do a job without being totally focused on the next election? Can there even be change?

I know the “worst system apart from all the others” thing, but is it possible there’s some better way, where governments could and would actually govern, not just be permanent election campaign machines?
 
I’m sure political crises get declared somewhere in Australia on a daily basis, but I’m interested in people’s thoughts here.

What are we witnessing in terms of the life cycle of democracy as we know it?

Relax, despite the thread title I don’t want to be too dramatic, it’s more a philosophical discussion. Just a chat about it.

I raise it because I think the quarantine situation is a very, very interesting stage upon which our political actors have been placed. State, Federal, Liberal, Labor, whatever.

Because we knew - well over a year ago - that we needed dedicated quarantine facilities on an island where the only way the virus can get in is through people arriving.

It’s not a difficult task with the resources a country like ours has. Nor is it expensive - especially in relation to the havoc COVID could wreak on our economy.

I’m not sure any stable person would disagree so far. There’s nothing controversial about any of that. Risk / benefit wise, it’s a simple no-brainer.

So it’s actually incredible, when you think about, that nobody has done it. Not the states. Not the federals. It just hasn’t been done.

And it’s pretty bloody clear that’s because nobody wants to be responsible for it.

So it gets us back to the basic question: why do we have governments? If we elect them to lead and manage things for the public, for all of us, then fine.

Yet we now in a situation, created by a multitude of factors, where they’re actively avoiding doing just that? Actively abrogating their very purpose for electoral reasons?

Going so “small target” because of the media and public focus environment that they’re, quite simply, not fulfilling the purpose for which they’re meant to exist?

And what does that mean? Is it so dysfunctional - or could it soon be - that it does real damage? This quarantine thing got me thinking about it. It. Just. Hasn’t. Been. Done.

It’s a wider discussion I think, this quarantine issue is purely an example, so don’t really want to get too bogged down in it. Nor is it really a Liberal v Labor thing imo. I think there’s plenty of threads for that.

What’s the future? Is change even possible? Do we need another model, such as public representatives similar to a jury duty system (obviously you’d need some form of basic education or qualification to opt in, but you’re chosen at random). Do we simply need very long electoral terms so that governments can actually do a job without being totally focused on the next election? Can there even be change?

I know the “worst system apart from all the others” thing, but is it possible there’s some better way, where governments could and would actually govern, not just be permanent election campaign machines?

Citizens' juries/assemblies are interesting to me. I don't think the SA government got enough credit for involving one over the nuclear waste issue and backing down from their preferred position as a result (I was lukewarm in supporting the proposal, so wasn't too fussed which conclusion they reached.)

I do wonder if that could be more formally integrated. Make one chamber of parliament proportionally elected and one assembly randomly drawn to review (with the threshold to overturn the elected House's votes very high.) It would need a lot of work to get right, but might inspire a bit more public confidence. And it would guarantee a more representative sample of Australians being directly involved in the legislative process, aside from upper-class factional hacks getting preselected.

As posted above though, I don't think things get better until there's more real engagement of ordinary people between elections. Whether that's through direct party membership, or union participation. More responsiveness from MPs to their local community groups and issues would do a lot to empower people too, but our parties sadly have enforced the tradition of toeing the line in all but very rare occasions.
 

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I’m sure political crises get declared somewhere in Australia on a daily basis, but I’m interested in people’s thoughts here.

What are we witnessing in terms of the life cycle of democracy as we know it?

Relax, despite the thread title I don’t want to be too dramatic, it’s more a philosophical discussion. Just a chat about it.

I raise it because I think the quarantine situation is a very, very interesting stage upon which our political actors have been placed. State, Federal, Liberal, Labor, whatever.

Because we knew - well over a year ago - that we needed dedicated quarantine facilities on an island where the only way the virus can get in is through people arriving.

It’s not a difficult task with the resources a country like ours has. Nor is it expensive - especially in relation to the havoc COVID could wreak on our economy.

I’m not sure any stable person would disagree so far. There’s nothing controversial about any of that. Risk / benefit wise, it’s a simple no-brainer.

So it’s actually incredible, when you think about, that nobody has done it. Not the states. Not the federals. It just hasn’t been done.

And it’s pretty bloody clear that’s because nobody wants to be responsible for it.

So it gets us back to the basic question: why do we have governments? If we elect them to lead and manage things for the public, for all of us, then fine.

Yet we now in a situation, created by a multitude of factors, where they’re actively avoiding doing just that? Actively abrogating their very purpose for electoral reasons?

Going so “small target” because of the media and public focus environment that they’re, quite simply, not fulfilling the purpose for which they’re meant to exist?

And what does that mean? Is it so dysfunctional - or could it soon be - that it does real damage? This quarantine thing got me thinking about it. It. Just. Hasn’t. Been. Done.

It’s a wider discussion I think, this quarantine issue is purely an example, so don’t really want to get too bogged down in it. Nor is it really a Liberal v Labor thing imo. I think there’s plenty of threads for that.

What’s the future? Is change even possible? Do we need another model, such as public representatives similar to a jury duty system (obviously you’d need some form of basic education or qualification to opt in, but you’re chosen at random). Do we simply need very long electoral terms so that governments can actually do a job without being totally focused on the next election? Can there even be change?

I know the “worst system apart from all the others” thing, but is it possible there’s some better way, where governments could and would actually govern, not just be permanent election campaign machines?
The problem is that once you start putting qualifiers on a citizens jury, it inherently becomes unrepresentative. And on the other side, people with better things to do, including the best and brightest, may decide to use their time in other ways. What you might end up with is similar sort of group of people that you have now, who still owe their positions of power to mechanisms further up the ladder.

The problem I feel is that we've got a system of government that's built on a document that's 120 years old. Is it really working for us in the here and now? Probably not. But the people who hold the keys to power also do remarkably well out of the status quo. So fundamental change will never occur.

Ultimately the only pathway for change is to use those structures against themselves. Support independent candidates, get involved at grassroots level.
 
I think the whole notion that we live in a democracy is bullshit

What we have is a (partly) democratic day every 3 years

For the rest of the time, we have absolutely no say in what a Government does or doesn't do

unless you get off your arse and get involved?
 
The average size of a membership at branch level is absurdly small. That's why stacking them is a thing, and so lucrative.

It's apathy that's holding us back. And not in the glib "voters get what they deserve" way, but in not taking the opportunities available to effect change.

TBH I think it’s a bit beyond that. The high concentration of media ownership and the chokehold the major parties (ok, one major party) has on it plays a huge part.
 
unless you get off your arse and get involved?

Dont get me wrong I am unemployed.... But I am also a registered voter. But im going to go off topic on here....

Heres the mentality in the US compared to Australia.

In the US, you get unemployment money for 6 months, then you have to fend for yourself.

In Australia, you get unemployment wages, you either look for work or study then get a certificate or diploma which leads you to work.

Or if you are like me, you get thrown into courses to get white cards and forklift licenses and car license to build up your resume to make you employable.

The point is whether you are employed or not or if you are a high income, medium income or low income worker, one person equals one vote.

And as a person that has been long term unemployed, I will always vote for which political party that will create the most jobs.
 
Been thinking about democracy recently andnwhile its possibly the most robust idealology, its flawed.

Plato was opposed to democracy because it allowed for ignorant people to voice their uneducated opinions, and political misinformation to manifest throughout society. Sound familiar?

Looking at referendums, why should ignorant and or misinformed people ultimately decide the future of our country or planet? Why should men decide whether women should use contraception if we were to manage population growth?

The best outcomes for our future CANNOT be decided on beliefs, and uneducated opinions.

There is an ideology called epistocracy where the most educated people are responsible for making the best outcomes. There are issues with this ideology but I think a blend of the two could work together.

As it stands, we have politicians with little to no experience, following deep party lines influenced by big business. Climate change is the biggest issue being ignored by the right due to the money being thrown around. Labor will win the next election, make some changes and then the Libs will repeal any efforts made on climate policies when they get back in power.

First thing we need is open forums involving 100s of experts and the general public on issues such as climate change. We need to educate everyone on all of the facts free from politics. When governments enact on advice, the information is freely available.

Unfortunately We will continue this cycle over and over again. Look at THE USA. Trump will winmin 24 and stsrt rebuilding the wall, repealing climate policies along with everything else. All in part to the political persuasion and heavily divided population. I for one dont understand why people follow polar oppositesnin politics with no middle ground.
 
Been thinking about democracy recently andnwhile its possibly the most robust idealology, its flawed.

Plato was opposed to democracy because it allowed for ignorant people to voice their uneducated opinions, and political misinformation to manifest throughout society. Sound familiar?

Looking at referendums, why should ignorant and or misinformed people ultimately decide the future of our country or planet? Why should men decide whether women should use contraception if we were to manage population growth?

The best outcomes for our future CANNOT be decided on beliefs, and uneducated opinions.

There is an ideology called epistocracy where the most educated people are responsible for making the best outcomes. There are issues with this ideology but I think a blend of the two could work together.

As it stands, we have politicians with little to no experience, following deep party lines influenced by big business. Climate change is the biggest issue being ignored by the right due to the money being thrown around. Labor will win the next election, make some changes and then the Libs will repeal any efforts made on climate policies when they get back in power.

First thing we need is open forums involving 100s of experts and the general public on issues such as climate change. We need to educate everyone on all of the facts free from politics. When governments enact on advice, the information is freely available.

Unfortunately We will continue this cycle over and over again. Look at THE USA. Trump will winmin 24 and stsrt rebuilding the wall, repealing climate policies along with everything else. All in part to the political persuasion and heavily divided population. I for one dont understand why people follow polar oppositesnin politics with no middle ground.

You want Starship Troopers style citizens?
 
Been thinking about democracy recently andnwhile its possibly the most robust idealology, its flawed.

Plato was opposed to democracy because it allowed for ignorant people to voice their uneducated opinions, and political misinformation to manifest throughout society. Sound familiar?

Looking at referendums, why should ignorant and or misinformed people ultimately decide the future of our country or planet? Why should men decide whether women should use contraception if we were to manage population growth?

The best outcomes for our future CANNOT be decided on beliefs, and uneducated opinions.

There is an ideology called epistocracy where the most educated people are responsible for making the best outcomes. There are issues with this ideology but I think a blend of the two could work together.

As it stands, we have politicians with little to no experience, following deep party lines influenced by big business. Climate change is the biggest issue being ignored by the right due to the money being thrown around. Labor will win the next election, make some changes and then the Libs will repeal any efforts made on climate policies when they get back in power.

First thing we need is open forums involving 100s of experts and the general public on issues such as climate change. We need to educate everyone on all of the facts free from politics. When governments enact on advice, the information is freely available.

Unfortunately We will continue this cycle over and over again. Look at THE USA. Trump will winmin 24 and stsrt rebuilding the wall, repealing climate policies along with everything else. All in part to the political persuasion and heavily divided population. I for one dont understand why people follow polar oppositesnin politics with no middle ground.

I personally feel we should sit an exam before we vote and so to for candidates seeking election
 

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Sure you are a hypocrite who doesn't vote but wants to set the criterion for those who do

You don't get a say in any issue regarding voting.......or any issue on politics for that matter

Whether I vote or not, I advocate the same rules for everyone.

Weren’t you the one banging on that voting once a period fails to hear the peoples voice? Or claim democracy was bullshit?

Thus by your own admission, you actually agree with me?

Perhaps have another try re the relevance? Perhaps your just getting emotional?
 
I personally feel we should sit an exam before we vote and so to for candidates seeking election
so gate keeping the right to have a say in how your life is run

Awkward Season 2 GIF by Friends
 
so gate keeping the right to have a say in how your life is run

Awkward Season 2 GIF by Friends

should an uninformed vote or donkey vote carry the same weight as an informed decision?

should we have politicians who mislead, deceive and lie on purpose or through ignorance?



I feel we need politics to be about policy rather than personality. For that to happen, we need the electorate and politicians to understand policy.
 
should an uninformed vote or donkey vote carry the same weight as an informed decision?

should we have politicians who mislead, deceive and lie on purpose or through ignorance?



I feel we need politics to be about policy rather than personality. For that to happen, we need the electorate and politicians to understand policy.
yes that is how voting works, everyone gets one vote to use or waste as they see fit
 
I personally feel we should sit an exam before we vote and so to for candidates seeking election

We don't even have tests for people to have children.
 
I think the whole notion that we live in a democracy is bullshit

What we have is a (partly) democratic day every 3 years

For the rest of the time, we have absolutely no say in what a Government does or doesn't do
Sure you are a hypocrite who doesn't vote but wants to set the criterion for those who do

You don't get a say in any issue regarding voting.......or any issue on politics for that matter

giggle........
 

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