The game will eat itself

[Mario Speedwagon]

One good thing that Eddie Fathead once said ...we need to stop having the rules of a professional game played by grown men dictated by people worrying about what might happen to a bunch of 10 year olds having a kick in the park ...or words to that effect.


Find it amusing that a few of you would rather watch the Storm...to most people like me who grew up on League and are purists , the game is now pretty much unwatchable and has been for many years...the problem with both codes is fundamentally the same, the people who run them are out of touch and obssessed with broadening their appeal to the casual fans and the uninitiaed at expense of the grass roots supporters who are the game's life blood...

 

[tugga]

One good thing that Eddie Fathead once said ...we need to stop having the rules of a professional game played by grown men dictated by people worrying about what might happen to a bunch of 10 year olds having a kick in the park ...or words to that effect.


Find it amusing that a few of you would rather watch the Storm...to most people like me who grew up on League and are purists , the game is now pretty much unwatchable and has been for many years...the problem with both codes is fundamentally the same, the people who run them are out of touch and obssessed with broadening their appeal to the casual fans and the uninitiaed at expense of the grass roots supporters who are the game's life blood...

Not only would I prefer to watch the Storm, I would also prefer to watch, say, Broncos vs Cowboys on a Sat night rather than, say, Port Adelaide vs North Melbourne.
League has its problems too, just like most sports. The video ref is a problem (too many clear cut tries being sent to the video ref, who comes up with a baffling call anyway), and teams kicking wide to 6'6" 'wingman' to score most of the tries is also upsetting the purists.
Also, you can bag out 'soccer' (I'll call it that for the sake of this thread) all you want people, but the only significant rule change they have had in an eternity has been the the outlawing of the goalkeeper being able to pick up the ball with his hands after a backpass by his own teammate.
The interpretation of the rules are what's ruining footy. You can't lay a fingernail on a bloke's shoulder anymore without hearing that piercing whistle sound. It frustrates players and supporters.

 

[CoggaRules]

One good thing that Eddie Fathead once said ...we need to stop having the rules of a professional game played by grown men dictated by people worrying about what might happen to a bunch of 10 year olds having a kick in the park ...or words to that effect.


Find it amusing that a few of you would rather watch the Storm...to most people like me who grew up on League and are purists , the game is now pretty much unwatchable and has been for many years...the problem with both codes is fundamentally the same, the people who run them are out of touch and obssessed with broadening their appeal to the casual fans and the uninitiaed at expense of the grass roots supporters who are the game's life blood...

man, this is the deal in modern times. You look at the graph, if its pointing up, then grass roots only matters when you sit down in the board room and suggest, we need to set aside a week to show them we care. Ding, i know!!, lets have a grass roots footy week, along with a few other ridiculous theme weeks.

The only and I mean only way to save this game from eating itself, is to do away with the salary cap.

 

[mhill]

You reckon it's bad now?
Wait until there's another 90 odd players added with the introduction of 2 new clubs.

Too many players, too many clubs which is spreading talent far too thinly.

The rules don't help but FFS we're going to have nearly a thousand players in the top competition in the nation. Its effing ridiculous.

Get it back to 12 clubs, piss off the rules that make it nearly impossible for a defender to spoil and watch the quality improve.

 

[tucker777]

That's what gets me...the AFL seems to want a more razzle-dazzle high scoring game, which it aims to get by slowly making defenders useless through rule upon rule change.
How come then the games are getting more and more low scoring?

A: Coaches becoming so conservative that they play such defensive game styles that taking the chance of scoring a goal for their own side is deemed too much of a risk.

In the last 10-15 years we have had how many new defensive plans?....flooding, rolling zone etc etc.
How many new attacking plans?....*crickets*

Stop penalizing the players for doing their job and playing the game plan they are told to....get on the backs of the coaches who are too scared to lose, but not scared enough to try and win.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Get it back to 12 clubs, piss off the rules that make it nearly impossible for a defender to spoil and watch the quality improve.

Yep, scrap everything I said, this is the solution.

 

[CoggaRules]

In 10 maybe 20 years time there will be only about 12 maybe 14 clubs in the comp.
That would leave Melbourne with 4 teams, 2 in Adelaide, 2 in WA, 2 in QLD possibly 1 or 2 in NSW and/or 1 in Tassie. I m tipping that 2nd team in Sydney's west and the 1 in tassie, will be a relocation of one of melbourne's dead. And down the track, the GC will consume another. Once the AFL have got to that stage, they will release the breaks on the salary cap and let in the big corporates to own the clubs.
Right now they are applying a torneque on to an open wound, in attempt to prolong the life of the strugglers, so they are around when the newbies need to be fed.

 

[Wally Matera]

In 10 maybe 20 years time there will be only about 12 maybe 14 clubs in the comp.
That would leave Melbourne with 4 teams, 2 in Adelaide, 2 in WA, 2 in QLD possibly 1 or 2 in NSW and/or 1 in Tassie. I m tipping that 2nd team in Sydney's west and the 1 in tassie, will be a relocation of one of melbourne's dead. And down the track, the GC will consume another. Once the AFL have got to that stage, they will release the breaks on the salary cap and let in the big corporates to own the clubs.
Right now they are applying a torneque on to an open wound, in attempt to prolong the life of the strugglers, so they are around when the newbies need to be fed.

So in 120 years of football, the league has managed to boot out a grand total of 2 clubs. And in the next 10 years, they'll introduce 2 teams and then either boot out or relocate 4 others.

OK, thanks for your input.

 

[CoggaRules]

]So in 120 years of football, the league has managed to boot out a grand total of 2 clubs.[/B] And in the next 10 years, they'll introduce 2 teams and then either boot out or relocate 4 others.

OK, thanks for your input.

really? how about you look at it in another light. Which of course you cant possibly accomplish with a one dimensional brain like yours, but hey you never know, it might be able to grasp it somehow.
In the last 30 years or so, the the league has managed to boot out/relocate a grand total of 2 teams and created 6 new teams, 2 of which were relocated Melbourne clubs.

 

[Wally Matera]

really? how about you look at it in another light. Which of course you cant possibly accomplish with a one dimensional brain like yours, but hey you never know, it might be able to grasp it somehow.
In the last 30 years or so, the the league has managed to boot out/relocate a grand total of 2 teams and created 6 new teams, 2 of which were relocated Melbourne clubs.

More abuse... you are a class act Cogga.

You said all that would happen in 10 years, maybe 20. You've just given me a stat on the last 30.

The Gold Coast doesnt come in until 2011 (at best). West Sydney - which is on the rocks - a couple of years later. That's 4 years of your 10 already gone. For the AFL to boot out 4 long serving clubs, or ask them to relocate, in 10 years isnt going to happen.

Thats 100,000 members plus thousands of barrackers, to go in the next 10 years. It took the AFL 9 years to boot out Fitzroy, longer, and they were on its knees.

Thanks for your input, l disagree.

 

[CoggaRules]

More abuse... you are a class act Cogga.

You said all that would happen in 10 years, maybe 20. You've just given me a stat on the last 30.

The Gold Coast doesnt come in until 2011 (at best). West Sydney - which is on the rocks - a couple of years later. That's 4 years of your 10 already gone. For the AFL to boot out 4 long serving clubs, or ask them to relocate, in 10 years isnt going to happen.

Thats 100,000 members plus thousands of barrackers, to go in the next 10 years. It took the AFL 9 years to boot out Fitzroy, longer, and they were on its knees.

Thanks for your input, l disagree.

man, they have already asked 1 to do that for the GC. They declined and have signed their own death warrant according to many, including their own.
West Sydney is on the rocks? yeah it is for the moment, until the time where the AFL will ask a another club or the same one, to do the same. But this time, they will be hanging on by a hairs breath, playing with peanuts when it comes to dollars and anything that remotely suggests some kind of survival of the the 'brand" be it colour and affiliation will be jumped at.
What you dont really see is the direct corellation to Fitzroy's plight with that of the Roos & Melbourne and others down the track.
Lets face it dude, the Roos drew how many to the semi final against the swans last year? do you really believe that the AFL wasnt totally embarassed in the face of surging soccer crowds?

 

[oxx]

12 teams-Brilliant or alternatively(what i think the afl envisions) 24 teams playing off in seperate conferences !

LMFAO@ 24 teams playing RZ footy.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

Bring back University!

 

[Wally Matera]

Lets face it dude, the Roos drew how many to the semi final against the swans last year? do you really believe that the AFL wasnt totally embarassed in the face of surging soccer crowds?

Embarassed?? Why would the AFL be embarassed about crowds... check your facts Cogga. Here are the FACTS:

A League Grand Final, Victory v Adelaide: 53,273
A League Prelim Final, Adelaide v QLD Roar: 8, 472
A League Mjr Semi Final, Adelaide v Victory (1 Leg): 14,119
A League Mnr Semi Final, CCM v QLD Roar (1 Leg): 23,705
A League Mjr Semi Final, Victory v Adelaide (2 Leg): 34,736
A League Mnr Semi Final, QLD Roar v CCM (2 Leg): 23,705

Now on 2008 attendances, the average crowds for the AFL's worst attended clubs were:

Noth Melbourne - 30,401 (ave. per game)
Melbourne - 30,187
Brisbane - 28,374
Port Adelaide - 25,298

Clearly, far greater than the A Leagues finals attendances!

Yes, Norths attendance in their only final last year was pathetic - 19,127 - but comparatively, its still no embarassment to the sport you seem so worried about.

A League has nothing on the AFL, particularly when ticket prices are about 25% less than AFL games.

Again, thank you for your input. I disagree.

 

[CoggaRules]

Embarassed?? Why would the AFL be embarassed about crowds... check your facts Cogga. Here are the FACTS:

A League Grand Final, Victory v Adelaide: 53,273
A League Prelim Final, Adelaide v QLD Roar: 8, 472
A League Mjr Semi Final, Adelaide v Victory (1 Leg): 14,119
A League Mnr Semi Final, CCM v QLD Roar (1 Leg): 23,705
A League Mjr Semi Final, Victory v Adelaide (2 Leg): 34,736
A League Mnr Semi Final, QLD Roar v CCM (2 Leg): 23,705

Now on 2008 attendances, the average crowds for the AFL's worst attended clubs were:

Noth Melbourne - 30,401 (ave. per game)
Melbourne - 30,187
Brisbane - 28,374
Port Adelaide - 25,298

Clearly, far greater than the A Leagues finals attendances!

Yes, Norths attendance in their only final last year was pathetic - 19,127 - but comparatively, its still no embarassment to the sport you seem so worried about.

A League has nothing on the AFL, particularly when ticket prices are about 25% less than AFL games.

Again, thank you for your input. I disagree.

So you are saying the AFL werent embarassed with the Telstra stadium that has a cpacity of 100K, holding 19K for an AFL final, correct?
Maybe you should start looking at trends over years, % increases, % decreases, etc etc, instead of the good old way, "we are still ahead, we are good, see what happened in 2008?"
Mark my words dude, they are toast.
man, there are SANFL teams getting more to their games than the roos FFS.

 

[Wally Matera]

So you are saying the AFL werent embarassed with the Telstra stadium that has a cpacity of 100K, holding 19K for an AFL final, correct?
Maybe you should start looking at trends over years, % increases, % decreases, etc etc, instead of the good old way, "we are still ahead, we are good see what happened in 2008?"

Do you only read what you want to read?

Yes, that finals game was "pathetic". Embarassed? No, l dont think so. Its one game where the lowest membership base had to travel to a city which follows a different code and scheduled at the largest ground in the country.

You talk about % increases, decreases... what effect do you think the expansion of the A League will have on clubs like Victory when they introduce another club into Victoria. Create great rivalry and big matches against one other club, but the rest will fail to get 10,000 through the gate.

The AFL is THE premier sporting code in the country. But you argue that the country cant sustain 16 clubs - wherever they are located - but the A League plans to increase to 12 clubs within the next 4 years.

If they can sustain 12 clubs, we could sustain 20. I'm not disagreeing with the fact the some clubs will be forced to merge or relocate, but the AFL have categorically stated that 16 clubs is their preferred model.

TV stations would not allow the AFL to have any less.

Thanks again, l disagree.

 

[CoggaRules]

Do you only read what you want to read?

Yes, that finals game was "pathetic". Embarassed? No, l dont think so. Its one game where the lowest membership base had to travel to a city which follows a different code and scheduled at the largest ground in the country.

You talk about % increases, decreases... what effect do you think the expansion of the A League will have on clubs like Victory when they introduce another club into Victoria. Create great rivalry and big matches against one other club, but the rest will fail to get 10,000 through the gate.

The AFL is THE premier sporting code in the country. But you argue that the country cant sustain 16 clubs - wherever they are located - but the A League plans to increase to 12 clubs within the next 4 years.

If they can sustain 12 clubs, we could sustain 20. I'm not disagreeing with the fact the some clubs will be forced to merge or relocate, but the AFL have categorically stated that 16 clubs is their preferred model.

TV stations would not allow the AFL to have any less.

Thanks again, l disagree.

so why did they want the Roos to relocate then dude?
Go on give it your best shot. As for me reading what i want to read. Man, so the AFL have categorically said what? LMAO....and so that means that they their prefferred model is 16 clubs huh? yeah....imagine that. Imagine if they really wanted to tell all and sundry including you what their real plan was...huh? What would happen then? Try this one on for size.
We the AFL categorically state there will be 3 or 4 teams relocated. Think about what shit will be hitting the fan then huh?
They are going to tell you diddly squat dude...if you believe otherwise then you have NFI about how big business goes about its plans.

 

[tucker777]

You talk about % increases, decreases... what effect do you think the expansion of the A League will have on clubs like Victory when they introduce another club into Victoria. Create great rivalry and big matches against one other club, but the rest will fail to get 10,000 through the gate.

The idea of introducing another Melbourne/Victorian A League would make soccer in Victoria just a step closer to the racial and violence fueled debacle that the NSL was.

And wasn't that a joy kiddies?
Victory works because everyone HAS to support 1 team. No one can ally themselves with anyone else. Serbs, Croats...whatever...1 team, 1 allegiance.

2 team....2 allegiances = NSL glory days.

 

[Wally Matera]

so why did they want the Roos to relocate then dude?
Go on give it your best shot. As for me reading what i want to read. Man, so the AFL have categorically said what? LMAO....and so that means that they their prefferred model is 16 clubs huh? yeah....imagine that. Imagine if they really wanted to tell all and sundry including you what their real plan was...huh? What would happen then? Try this one on for size.
We the AFL categorically state there will be 3 or 4 teams relocated. Think about what shit will be hitting the fan then huh?
They are going to tell you diddly squat dude...if you believe otherwise then you have NFI about how big business goes about its plans.

Why did they want the Roos to relocate? Because they want to expand the competition and naturally with them have the lowest membership base in Victoria, it would be best to relocate them to areas of expansion rather than kill them and lose some football followers completely.

I have no doubt, that the AFL does not want the 10 teams in Victoria. I understand that, there is NO argument from me there. But they WILL NOT kill off any club to reduce the competition to less than 16 teams. They will only kill them off by movement expanding areas.

I agree, l take your point, yes... they wouldnt want to reveal to all and sundry their plans to kick clubs out. But l believe that 16 clubs is a sustainable competition across the whole of Australia. And l trust the AFL do... its hard to see why they wouldnt to. We had 12 teams, then 14, then 15, then 16... and then they decide to reduce it?

You talk about big business plans, that to me doesnt sound strategic sense. But hey, neither does outsourcing to India.

You made the statement that within in the next 10 years, the comp to less than 16 teams. I disagree and have explained why.

 

[RECORDS!]

Can I ask a question of Cogga amongst your fighting? Who is the SANFL club averaging more than 30,000 people per game?

 

[Wally Matera]

The idea of introducing another Melbourne/Victorian A League would make soccer in Victoria just a step closer to the racial and violence fueled debacle that the NSL was.

And wasn't that a joy kiddies?
Victory works because everyone HAS to support 1 team. No one can ally themselves with anyone else. Serbs, Croats...whatever...1 team, 1 allegiance.

2 team....2 allegiances = NSL glory days.

Possibly Tucker, and yes, you're right... no one wants those days again. I think Australia has somewhat grown up (l hope) about the world game, in comparison to dark old days.

However, that wasnt where l was going. More the prospect that crowds could dwindle even more if there was a totally new club (unless it was placed in Geelong) and they had to start out and play away games on the Gold Coast.

Could you imagine it... the'd let pets in to make the crowds look bigger.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

Well, might as well be hung for a sheep than a lamb, so here goes...

Personally I'd rather go back to 12...but this will be the future:

A summer International Rules League including all AFL clubs...clubs can choose full squads of non-contracted players if they so choose. Each club must design a specific Gaelic Football style guernsey for this comp. (more merchandising opportunities)
The competition will be divided in to a 4 groups of 5 playing each other once in a round robin. Top 2 in each group advance to quarter-finals.


NAB expanded into FA cup style midweek comp. that runs until June with a weekend final. 20 AFL clubs & 12 top clubs from lower division will compete in a knock-out format. 1st round will be pre-season. Clubs can recruit non-contracted specialists on match payments specifically for cup and-excluding round one- can play no more than 12 players from previous premiership game , but now fewer than 8 (including interchange)



Main Premiership
20 teams
5 Divisions

BIG 4 Division : Rich, Coll , Carl, Ess
Southern Division: Melb, Geelong , Tassie , Canberra
Metro Division: Haw, St.K, WB, North
Western Division: WCE, Freo, Port, Adel.
Northern Division: Syd, W.Syd, Bris, GC

(A seeding system based on the previous years position would be fairer, however this system insures that all big drawing rivalries are played at least twice.)

This will be a 6 game H& A qualifying round for the Premiership , points & percentage will carry over to avoid dead rubbers. The top two in each division will qualify for the Premiership Group A and the bottom two will be relegated to Premiership group B. These groups will consist of two 10 sides each playing an 18 game H&A season. The top 6 teams of Group A will qualify for the first 6 second chance spots in the final 10. The top 4 in Group B will qualify for the sudden death positions of 7-10 in the finals. The top 2 of Group A will get the first week off...the first week will be 3 v 6, 4 v 5, 7 v 10 & 8 v 9(Go Tiges!)

24 rounds + 1 extra week of finals.

Extended bench of 6. Expanded lists of 50 (2 seniors , 2 rookies 2 international development players ...with the international players to be partly funded by the AFL.)

State of Origin re-instated every second year....2 weeks.....Victoriav Allies , SAv WA ...winners to play, final losers to play for 3rd place.


Salary cap socialist crap scrapped after cartel of big clubs win court case.
Draft lottery introduced for first round. Ascending prize money for respective ladder finishes, second round as per usual, third round positions 20-11 reversed (11th gets first pick, 20th get's 9th...10th -1st as per usual)

First & second round draftees can nominate preferred club. If preferred club chooses draftee they must to pay club that would've picked said draftee the equivalent of standard draftee contract + 20% and give up pick from second or third round to that club for that year and the next. Each club can only do this once every two years.

Professionals from the United States will be bought in to help improve the quality of merchandising.

Full mirrored reserves & U'19 comps. will be re-established. To ensure consistancy with the seniors fixtures, this will only commence after the qualifying rounds.


The SANFL & WAFL will merge into the SWFL, which will consist of two divisions in a relegation/ promotion format.

The winners of the SWFL will play the VFL premiers and a new fully professional EFL (NSW& QLD ) in a try series for the AFL 2 Premiership. The VFA, TFL, QAFL & NSWFL premiers will play off for the AFL 3 Premiership. In AFL 3 ...to avoid blow outs common to lower level footy...a catch-up option will be instituted...wher by if a team is ahead by certain number of goals after half time, they must lose two players...the losing team's scoring values will be doubled , the team that is leading will be awarded 4 points and retain it's percentage, if they still win they recieve a bonus point and the winning margin is asdde to their percentage. If the losing team wins they will be awarded 3 premiership points instead of 4.
Delayed coverage of AFL 2 and highlights packages of AFL 3 must be a minimum condition of broadcasting rights contracts.

Professional and innovative merchandise of lower league teams will be heavily pushed onto the public...sold to footy fans and ironic hipsters alike.

All AFL merchandise will be heavily promoted overseas...marketed to sporting fans and hipsters alike.

The percieved hardness and "insanity" of our game will be accentuated to the unitiated overseas punters, as that is what they-particularly the seppos- are attracted to about the game.




Now have at me if you like, though none of this tops Cogga's assertion that there are currently SANFL teams averaging crowds of 30,000 +.....

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Re-Zoning, I notice ex Carltank player, vet and now rules committee guro , McKay, on the box saying the AFL is looking at ways to combat the ugliness that zoning has brought.
Well the solution has been staring the AFL in the face for some time. Speed up the time it takes to throw the ball in from boundary throwins and ball ups around the ground, hence not allowing sides the time to set up zones.
Irrespective of whether two or three blokes are on the ground just get the game moving like it use to be.
The time it takes for them to throw the ball in and bounce the ball is the biggest blight that has creeped into the game over the past decade.
Players are penalised for wasting time yet 3 times the umpires that were around years ago now do the same job yet the neutral time within a game is larger.
Not only would it make footy more attractive but would also revert to seeing two valuable positions within the game returned, the mobile ruckman and the true ruck-rover.
Never before has the mobile ruckman been negotiated out of the game and the ruck rover is now just another rover, not a middle to tall mobile, 6.3, who is able to compete against the mobile ruckman.
Wish the AFL stop stuffing with the rules for the players and revert to asking their umpires to speed up their work !!!

 

[oxx]

The time it takes for them to throw the ball in and bounce the ball is the biggest blight that has creeped into the game over the past decad

Blame the AFL selling advertising time to out of sync affiliates and greedy sponsors but most of all,blame the afl for having as much forward planning as the Bush administration.

 

[tigerz18]

for me the game is losing its appeal because players are being drafted because they can run fast and jump high, however they couldnt hit a target to save their lives. richmonds problem, and that of most of the other teams in the league, is that 75% of their players can't hit targets over 20 metres, therefore turning games into nothing but unforced errors that is reminiscent of under 10's footy.

clubs (and this will never happen due to the speed of the game and rule changes to continually speed it up) need to start drafting players that, while they might not be the fittest or fastest, can at least kick a ball effectively to a team mate. this will make the game more appealling and score levels will start getting higher again. (back to the days of skills, not speed)

the "rolling zone" would be ineffective against said skilled teams because this zone doesnt necessarily mean man-on-man, and a skilled team would be able to hit an unmarked teammate.

1 last point - the fact that the average age of teams is 23 means that lists are made up of VERY inexperienced players. which means that they arent smart enough to run smart, instead they run like headless chooks chasing the ball. smart running comes with age.

in summary - footballers should be drafted (not athletes that have very basic skills) and teams need to keep players longer than 3 years, as some people are late developers(maybe this is a list numbers issue that the AFL need to look at)

this is only what i have noticed in the last couple of years and i may be totally off, but thats what i think.