Society/Culture The Gender Pay Gap

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romeohwho

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Split from thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/feminism-2016-thread.1141612/page-99

Obviously male suicide rates are dreadful and can't imagine anyone would find it otherwise. But this is a thread about feminism, so not sure why it keeps coming into this thread discussion.
Many times, links have been posted that show for exactly the same job in several professions, a female has been paid a lower wage. I don't care how any convoluted gymnastic moves you try to make it not so-its there as a simple fact.
Its a tiresome discussion.
 
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nicky

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Obviously male suicide rates are dreadful and can't imagine anyone would find it otherwise. But this is a thread about feminism, so not sure why it keeps coming into this thread discussion.
Many times, links have been posted that show for exactly the same job in several professions, a female has been paid a lower wage. I don't care how any convoluted gymnastic moves you try to make it not so-its there as a simple fact.
Its a tiresome discussion.


Ahh yep.

Agree that male suicide rates are dreadful and am in support of any initiative to address this.

However you're right, this has absolutely nothing to do with feminism.
 

DemonTim

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Obviously male suicide rates are dreadful and can't imagine anyone would find it otherwise. But this is a thread about feminism, so not sure why it keeps coming into this thread discussion.
Many times, links have been posted that show for exactly the same job in several professions, a female has been paid a lower wage. I don't care how any convoluted gymnastic moves you try to make it not so-its there as a simple fact.
Its a tiresome discussion.
Is be intersted to see those. None have been posted why I've been here
 

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Barry_Badrinath

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Obviously male suicide rates are dreadful and can't imagine anyone would find it otherwise. But this is a thread about feminism, so not sure why it keeps coming into this thread discussion.

Many times, links have been posted that show for exactly the same job in several professions, a female has been paid a lower wage. I don't care how any convoluted gymnastic moves you try to make it not so-its there as a simple fact.
Its a tiresome discussion.

You keep saying that but I haven't seen them posted. Every time this topic comes up the same arguments always get thrown back: "I've already posted them so I'm not gonna bother again".

Surely copying and pasting a link takes less effort than writing up a post?
 

Mofra

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You keep saying that but I haven't seen them posted. Every time this topic comes up the same arguments always get thrown back: "I've already posted them so I'm not gonna bother again".

Surely copying and pasting a link takes less effort than writing up a post?
Took a few seconds of searching - Q4 2014 figures (I suspect there's been no substantial closing of the gap in the time between then and now):

https://www.livingin-australia.com/salaries-australia/

The average full-time male salary (excluding overtime) in Australia is A$82,550 per annum

The average full-time female salary in Australia (excluding overtime) is A$67,049 per annum.
 

Mofra

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The claim was paid less for the same job. Not averages
Ok, haven't read through the entire thread was responding to the last couple of posts.

The second link I provided has information on gaps within the same industry and employment type, that's as disaggregated as the data I found gets.
 

DemonTim

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Ok, haven't read through the entire thread was responding to the last couple of posts.

The second link I provided has information on gaps within the same industry and employment type, that's as disaggregated as the data I found gets.
Do you think females are paid less for the same job?
 

cartwright

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Took a few seconds of searching - Q4 2014 figures (I suspect there's been no substantial closing of the gap in the time between then and now):

https://www.livingin-australia.com/salaries-australia/

Yeah. Somewhere buried in this thread, there was data that supported this.
IIRC I used the example data of a school principal, in comparable years of service. There was a considerable difference.
Pretty sure the usual suspects explained it away.
 

DemonTim

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Yeah. Somewhere buried in this thread, there was data that supported this.
IIRC I used the example data of a school principal, in comparable years of service. There was a considerable difference.
Pretty sure the usual suspects explained it away.
It's posts like these that make it obvious that you're not here for discussion on the topic
 

coerced

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Yeah. Somewhere buried in this thread, there was data that supported this.
IIRC I used the example data of a school principal, in comparable years of service. There was a considerable difference.
Pretty sure the usual suspects explained it away.
I find that hard to believe for state schools given there is a considerable amount of policy and union advocacy around equalising pay.
 

Barry_Badrinath

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Mofra I don't think anyone is disputing that men get paid more on average. We're disputing that men get paid more on average for doing the same job. Those numbers you quoted are comparing people from all different jobs. It's comparing senior petroleum engineers (mostly male) to fresh out of uni primary school teachers (mostly female). Not very useful. Women make different choices to men in regards to work which influences their earning capacity. The more you account for these choices the more the wage gap disappears. I don't think I've seen a study that puts the unexplained wage gap at more than about 5%. Some are as low as 2%.

The problem is that the phrase (78 cents for every dollar a man makes for the same work*) gets thrown around regularly to suggest sexism when it has no place in reasonable debate. Even Obama has claimed it. We've now got major companies (ANZ bank is one) pushing blatantly sexist policies to pay women a higher rate of superannuation simply to try and account for this imaginary pay gap. This is pretty troubling that after decades of trying to fight sexism that people are now willingly applauding sexism when it goes the other.

Sexism isn't solved by letting the pendulum swing back the other. That just creates more sexism.



*its actually 83 cents in Australia
 
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Jello_B

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Why do you think there is a pay gap?
This report suprised me a bit tbh. In private industry we are all competing for the best talent, female or male. Ultimately our decisions are based on increasing share holder value, and this has a direct correlation to employee value, I sit on the Board.
I can't get anyone sitting in an annual review and even thinking to pay anyone more or less based on gender or race. You always pay everyone as little as possible :p
 

Procrastinator35

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Why do you think there is a pay gap?
This report surprised me a bit tbh. In private industry we are all competing for the best talent, female or male. Ultimately our decisions are based on increasing share holder value, and this has a direct correlation to employee value, I sit on the Board.
I can't get anyone sitting in an annual review and even thinking to pay anyone more or less based on gender or race. You always pay everyone as little as possible :p

Now there's an interesting paradox....You want the best talent to maximize outcomes & profit margins, but you try to minimize that talents reward as much as possible?

Or were you being facetious?
 

Jello_B

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Now there's an interesting paradox....You want the best talent to maximize outcomes & profit margins, but you try to minimize that talents reward as much as possible?

Or were you being facetious?
Haha, the first bit was all true. The last line was a joke.
 

Mofra

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Do you think females are paid less for the same job?
Honestly - I think it depends on the industry.

Among structured pay scale employers (Public Services, defence excluding allowances, large corporations with 'graded' employees) - no.
Among smaller companies, companies that have individual contracts, and at senior management level without graded employees - yes.

That is if we ignore two conflating factors. Firstly if a female employee takes a career break for children (it is overwhelmingly mother rather than fathers who sacrifice their career for children) that is time spent away from promotion, experience etc that impacts on her career.
Secondly, careers that are more likely to employ females pay less. Childcare workers and carers get paid closer to minimum wage than most other industries.

There is little doubt that in some professions females doing the same work get paid less regardless of performance.
 

DemonTim

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Honestly - I think it depends on the industry.

Among structured pay scale employers (Public Services, defence excluding allowances, large corporations with 'graded' employees) - no.
Among smaller companies, companies that have individual contracts, and at senior management level without graded employees - yes.

That is if we ignore two conflating factors. Firstly if a female employee takes a career break for children (it is overwhelmingly mother rather than fathers who sacrifice their career for children) that is time spent away from promotion, experience etc that impacts on her career.
Secondly, careers that are more likely to employ females pay less. Childcare workers and carers get paid closer to minimum wage than most other industries.

There is little doubt that in some professions females doing the same work get paid less regardless of performance.
I just haven't seen anything that suggests that is the case

I understand childcare and carers get paid less, but that's more due to the economic state of their industry if anything (my mum is a carer). TAC, vet affairs etc are constantly trying to save money or carer costs, and childcare is already unaffordable to many. The industries just aren't economically viable to increase wages.

I was reading something the other day (think it was on the SBS site), that aged care, nursing, child care etc are all seeing more males and less females applying, whereas law and "male" fields were seeing more females.
 

Mofra

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I was reading something the other day (think it was on the SBS site), that aged care, nursing, child care etc are all seeing more males and less females applying, whereas law and "male" fields were seeing more females.
A couple of years ago (I think it was in response to one of Pyne's silly comments) there were more female entrants into tertiary legal studies than male.
Not sure if that translates into people actually practicing law as I know three friends, all female, who have law degrees but don't practice.

I think the gap between male and female pay will close over time but there is evidence that in some industries there are gaps.
 

DemonTim

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A couple of years ago (I think it was in response to one of Pyne's silly comments) there were more female entrants into tertiary legal studies than male.
Not sure if that translates into people actually practicing law as I know three friends, all female, who have law degrees but don't practice.

I think the gap between male and female pay will close over time but there is evidence that in some industries there are gaps.
Oh I agree that it doesn't translate to more working in the field, but it's the most likely outcome. I only know a male who completed his degree, and he doesn't practice currently either

Maybe it's because every industry i've worked in has either been regulated in terms of pay, or self employed. The fitness industry I found that women charge more than men, but that's set by the individual, and due to women being more in demand than men, but less available.
 

Barry_Badrinath

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Honestly - I think it depends on the industry.

Among structured pay scale employers (Public Services, defence excluding allowances, large corporations with 'graded' employees) - no.
Among smaller companies, companies that have individual contracts, and at senior management level without graded employees - yes.

That is if we ignore two conflating factors. Firstly if a female employee takes a career break for children (it is overwhelmingly mother rather than fathers who sacrifice their career for children) that is time spent away from promotion, experience etc that impacts on her career.

That's not going to change though. It's a reality that we have to accept. Until women stop having babies that will always be a factor.

Secondly, careers that are more likely to employ females pay less. Childcare workers and carers get paid closer to minimum wage than most other industries.

There is little doubt that in some professions females doing the same work get paid less regardless of performance.

Childcare workers get paid less because people don't place a high monetary value on the work they do. They need to ensure their rate is low enough that it remains financially beneficial for parents, otherwise parents will just stay home and watch the kids themselves. Unskilled labour will always be paid low rates.
 

Werewolf

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And so the poster without an original thought in his head has posted.:thumbsu:
However it is good to see he is capable of posting more than one liners.
Anything to add about the subject or do you just want to attack me?
Not surprised at your likers. Wonderful support group.
Lebbo's one of the better posters here, probably because he gets news from more than two TV stations :)

I love how mens issues are described as trivial by some in here yet one of the two biggest inequality issues for women in Australia is a gender pay gap that wittles down to a few cents in the dollar at most after other factors are accounted for.

Men dieing by suicide at nearly 4 times the rate of women.. Yep that is trivial.

Women having a life expectancy of 4 years more than men.. Complete non issue. (Even though Aboriginal Australians living 10-15 years less than non Aboriginal Australians is rightfully a huge moral issue)

Yet middle class white women not earning a little more for each dollar of their male counterparts is a HUGE issue.
The sentencing gap too. No one's ever explained why men get more jail time than women for the same offence & circumstances?

Women living an extra couple of years doesn't bother me TBH. Biology is what it is. The mine shaft gap is concerning though :D

 

Werewolf

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Ahhhhh hahahahaha!

Best laugh of the day, and today there has been some stiff competition for that honor.
Sure he's wrong about a couple of things, but no one's perfect. At least you agreed with the rest of my post :)

And I why should take note of your opinion?
You don't have to. TV/newspapers/radio don't always cover what matters that's all
 

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