The General Gym Discussion Thread

[fairdinkum]

I find it interesting that Carmichael Hunt, despite not being particularly skilled or understanding of the subtleties of the game, is becoming pretty effective in the midfield fairly quickly mainly because he is explosive and hard to tackle. It would be interesting to see how someone like Ziebell or Cotchin went with a similar amount of muscle development.

Very good point. His presence around the pack is also noticeable and he had more than a couple of our boys looking over their shoulders in our clash with them a few weeks ago.

Must be noted that Hunt also possesses fantastic ability to sidestep or 'move laterally', no doubt developed over his time growing up playing league. I wonder how much you can improve a footballer's ability to sidestep once he reaches an AFL club at 18 years of age.

 

[Slattery_20]

They wouldnt be able to approach muscle gain in the off season the way us non-footy players do = i.e up the protien, cut back hard cardio & smash the heavy weights(I know thats not the exact science, but just as a brief example).
If they did that then they would risk loosing too much cardio conditioning in the pre-season.

At a guess, everything would be extremely highly calorie controlled especially during pre-season when they would have to counteract calorie expenditure & intake down to a tee to make sure any gains in the gym weren't lost during intense carido sessions.

Why wouldn't they be taking in a heap of calories?
Just the amount of work they're doing, apart from anything else, would demand it.
You can put on strength and increase fitness at the same time. Most (if not all) athletes would be aiming to. It just needs a looot of food and a loooot of work.

The only thing they'd be doing all that different would be continuing with the cardio.

 

[topic97]

I rekon they would be doing a fair bit more than just taking in a lot of calories though - especially with all the sports scientists clubs have for them now.
What I was getting at is it would be a much different approach to what we "civillians" take in that you go through bulking stages with minimal cardio then cutting stages.
They dont have that luxury as they have to maintain the cardio fitness so it would probably be a much longer road than most.

Sure, they can put on strength and increase fitness, but not necessarily muscle mass as easily due to the amount of cardio they do.

Id love to see a progression plan follow a few years of any given player from, say draft to his mid 20's and see exactly how the clubs go about achieving building the stronger bodies.
It would be very interesting, but alas the clubs would keep it very secret.
I wonder how much weight work and the intensity of the sessions they do during the season? Id be imagining that they would just maintain during the footy season so not to risk injury or soreness.

 

[J_Moore]

Good to see Astbury deadlifiting in that vid.


Yeah, it's a good point, and that the usual reply I get, but the way i see it you regulation midfielder like say a Ziebell or Cotchin is probably going to the bench perhaps twice a quarter. So he does maybe 15 hard explosive sprints, a bit of jogging, and bit of 3/4 unrewarded running. Then he goes off for a 5 minute rest. Comes on again does the same, then it is quarter time.

It seems to me that they are little bit like a wide receiver in grid iron but with a bit more endurance.

It's not a bit more endurance - it's a lot more. The recovery time between efforts is a lot less, and the playing time is a lot more.

It's not like after the 5 minutes on the bench and the breaks between quarters completely rejuvenate you.

On the topic of Hunt, he's naturally a solid unit, so he'd be able to dedicate a fair bit of time to aerobic work while still being able to maintain muscle mass. If you don't have those sort of genetics, it can be a bit of an either/or proposition.

he's also a pretty limited player, and still gets tired pretty easily. I'd imagine North or Richmond would be pretty disappointed if Ziebull or Cotchin just played the role of midfield bullocker for most of their careers.

 

[ben_1301]

Good to see Astbury deadlifiting in that vid.


Yeah, it's a good point, and that the usual reply I get, but the way i see it you regulation midfielder like say a Ziebell or Cotchin is probably going to the bench perhaps twice a quarter. So he does maybe 15 hard explosive sprints, a bit of jogging, and bit of 3/4 unrewarded running. Then he goes off for a 5 minute rest. Comes on again does the same, then it is quarter time.

It seems to me that they are little bit like a wide receiver in grid iron but with a bit more endurance.

That's an ordinary comparison, completely different athletes. The average actual game time in the NFL is something like 11-16mins, A wide receiver may run what 15-20 routes tops, and if the ave dist of those routes is around ~50 meters he's still only covering 750m -1km tops per game. No doubt it's at a lot higher intensity but it still doesn't come close to the say 14-16kms a Bastinac would cover.

I know that for cycling it's suggested that for every extra kg of body weight being carried that athlete has to produce an extra 4watts of power to maintain that same speed, I assume there is a similar trade off in running so the difference is with the wide receiver & 200m runner they are able to maintain that higher power output due to the duration of their activities, but with a midfielder he's just not able to maintain that extra 20-30watt output over the duration of the game.

 

[TimmehJC"]

Good to see Astbury deadlifiting in that vid.


Yeah, it's a good point, and that the usual reply I get, but the way i see it you regulation midfielder like say a Ziebell or Cotchin is probably going to the bench perhaps twice a quarter. So he does maybe 15 hard explosive sprints, a bit of jogging, and bit of 3/4 unrewarded running. Then he goes off for a 5 minute rest. Comes on again does the same, then it is quarter time.

It seems to me that they are little bit like a wide receiver in grid iron but with a bit more endurance.

As already said, its not a bit more endurance, its a heap more. Players don't come off for a five minute rest, in this day of high rotations its more like 90sec to minutes. Won't I'm struggling to understand with that, and I'm sure somebody with a sports science background could probably explain it, is that these guys will push, full out sprint for 10 seconds to get off the ground, to sit down a rest for 1-2 minutes at most, then sprint back on. How much "rest" are they getting from this?

Also, it terms of the body type and training for these guys, each player would be on a specific plan to gain the fitness and strength required for their position. Building all mids up to 90+ kg, 6 foot running machines sounds good, but how many bodies can maintain that kind of size mixed with the endurance required with out some major injury problems down the track. No point having great players who can't get on the park. Funny enough that the two longest careers ever in our game were both guys who's physique's were pretty similar to my own skinny frame.

 

[topic97]

That's an ordinary comparison, completely different athletes. The average actual game time in the NFL is something like 11-16mins, A wide receiver may run what 15-20 routes tops, and if the ave dist of those routes is around ~50 meters he's still only covering 750m -1km tops per game. No doubt it's at a lot higher intensity but it still doesn't come close to the say 14-16kms a Bastinac would cover.

Good point - the endurance of an NFL athlete would be nowhere near an AFL player who, unless you are a full forward or fullback, are constantly on the move.
Even with todays game FF's generally move up the ground a lot when presses are on etc so have to be well up there with the rest.

NFL guys, depending on positions played, would be more akin to sprint training & power training than endurance.
Id say the AFL players certainly have the more well rounded mix of speed, endurance and strength compared to a lot of other sports - NRL perhaps as well but they tend to carry a fair bit more muscle/weight and are more power focused due to running into tackles.
You dont often see a lean NRL player!!

I wonder how an NFL player would go in the NRL.....

 

[ben_1301]

I wonder how an NFL player would go in the NRL.....

Their build would certainly be better suited to league, but still way off in terms of endurance! front rowers like Paul Gallen would expend huge amounts of energy due to the repetitive nature of the sport 25 hit ups & 30odd tackles is a massive workload!

In saying that for a sport with such a high work/rest ratio League seems to have a lot of players I would consider over weight. Just doesn't seem professional to me, guys like Idris and Inglis are carrying 5-10kgs of unrequired body weight.

 

[lysp]

This discussion kind of reminded me of a post on a body building forum.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=135898581

6'3 264 pound defensive linemen. Gotta gain another 16 pounds before camp (knowing i'm gunna drop 5-6 in camp). In order to gain weight I have to eat 7,000 cals a day. I have a lot of solid lean mass (about 13%bodyfat), working out 3-4 hours a day, and i just have a really fast metabolism so my coaches have me on the seafood diet...see food and eat it. To the bigger guys on here competing or whatever eating upwards of 5,000 calories if you can share any tips or reminders. This is my life, my day revolves around putting weight on so i can become even more of a beast on the field. Any suggestions u guys make, i'm gunna follow through.

264lb = 120kg.

I think our training is far behind the US in terms of weights/diet.

To be 120kg and 13% body fat (at 6'3 which isn't that tall) takes years of weight training. And to keep his speed/aestheticism too. Most of our afl players at that height are in the low to mid 90kg range. The few players in the 100kg+ range are usually a lot taller than 6'3.

Also someone called him out on his stats and he posted this picture: http://i.imgur.com/nTnMx.jpg (he's in the middle).

I think it's more our approach, as i was quite surprised about some comments from essendon players when the weapon came in as you'd think that a lot of his training would be a given at that level.

 

[ben_1301]

Once again athletes from two completely different sports are being comparred! question, what would happen if you asked that 120kg defensive linemen to try and follow Stanton in a match simulation drill at training? I'll answer that, he would pop within 60seconds.

I'm not at all suggesting one athlete is superior two the other, what I'm saying is that the sports require completely different training/energy systems/ demands.

 

[lysp]

Yeh i totally understand that.

It's just 25-30kg is a huge differential, and training methods (diet/weights) seem to be a lot different and have a whole lot more emphasis with nfl athletes - even at a college level which i guess is equivalent of vfl?

 

[fairdinkum]

This discussion kind of reminded me of a post on a body building forum.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=135898581
264lb = 120kg.

I think our training is far behind the US in terms of weights/diet.

To be 120kg and 13% body fat (at 6'3 which isn't that tall) takes years of weight training. And to keep his speed/aestheticism too. Most of our afl players at that height are in the low to mid 90kg range. The few players in the 100kg+ range are usually a lot taller than 6'3.

Also someone called him out on his stats and he posted this picture: http://i.imgur.com/nTnMx.jpg (he's in the middle).

I think it's more our approach, as i was quite surprised about some comments from essendon players when the weapon came in as you'd think that a lot of his training would be a given at that level.

Without knowing the specifics of the guy in question, my understanding is that players are drafted into U.S. sports after college, so they have had an extra few years - important years - to develop their physiques.

 

[ben_1301]

Yeh i totally understand that.

It's just 25-30kg is a huge differential, and training methods (diet/weights) seem to be a lot different and have a whole lot more emphasis with nfl athletes - even at a college level which i guess is equivalent of vfl?

Yeah some of the D1 colleges have amazing facility's, a lot would put AFL clubs to shame & these guys are coming out of the college system at 22-23 with a solid 4 years of strength & conditioning under their belts in a sport where that is their main focus (plus loads of HGH).

I would suggest that the training adaptation a AR player gains in their first 4 years in a professional environment would rival the adaptation an athlete in the US system would get, but once again completely different athletic requirements.

 

[fairdinkum]

^Whatsat about HGH?

 

[ben_1301]

NFL's drug testing policies are a joke, they test for HGH once a year at a fixed date via blood test. So esentially to be caught you have to have had injected HGH within a few hours of testing!

 

[J_Moore]

This discussion kind of reminded me of a post on a body building forum.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=135898581
264lb = 120kg.

I think our training is far behind the US in terms of weights/diet.

To be 120kg and 13% body fat (at 6'3 which isn't that tall) takes years of weight training. And to keep his speed/aestheticism too. Most of our afl players at that height are in the low to mid 90kg range. The few players in the 100kg+ range are usually a lot taller than 6'3.

Also someone called him out on his stats and he posted this picture: http://i.imgur.com/nTnMx.jpg (he's in the middle).

I think it's more our approach, as i was quite surprised about some comments from essendon players when the weapon came in as you'd think that a lot of his training would be a given at that level.

Jesus, the demands placed on NFL players' bodies are absurd.

To be 120kgs and still considered too light for a sport suggests that the requirements for the sport are a bit unhealthy.

 

[evo]

Once again athletes from two completely different sports are being comparred! question, what would happen if you asked that 120kg defensive linemen to try and follow Stanton in a match simulation drill at training? I'll answer that, he would pop within 60seconds.

I'm not at all suggesting one athlete is superior two the other, what I'm saying is that the sports require completely different training/energy systems/ demands.

I'm suggesting it is somewhere in between the 120kg linesman and the 84kg current Trent Cotchin.

The linesman probably wont be able to run with Stanton but the 94kg K. Hunt can - he already does. All I'm suggesting is that it would be interesting to see a Cotchin with another 10kegs of muscle. If Hunt can carry it, why can't Cotchin?

 

[evo]

It's not a bit more endurance - it's a lot more.

Ok what about this bloke. He retained the heavyweight UFC title on the weekend.

He has to be able fight for 5-five minute rounds at full intesity. 1 minute rest in between rounds.

I'd be willing to back his cardio against anyone in the AFL.

He is 193cm - 115kg. He couldn't play, say Centre half forward with a few stints on the ball, the way Buddy and Pav do?

 

[ben_1301]

I'm suggesting it is somewhere in between the 120kg linesman and the 84kg current Trent Cotchin.

The linesman probably wont be able to run with Stanton but the 94kg K. Hunt can - he already does. All I'm suggesting is that it would be interesting to see a Cotchin with another 10kegs of muscle. If Hunt can carry it, why can't Cotchin?

If you were to look at where Hunt is getting his possies & some of his GPS data you would probably see that he actually can't run with Cotchin, sure he can go with him on the inside but not outside.

And using your Cotchin example, you would be nuts to try and put anymore weight on a guy with his history of hip and achillies problems. This is why you don't see players adding that 5kg an off season like they may have done in the past.

 

[Burzum]

This discussion kind of reminded me of a post on a body building forum.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=135898581
264lb = 120kg.

I think our training is far behind the US in terms of weights/diet.

To be 120kg and 13% body fat (at 6'3 which isn't that tall) takes years of weight training. And to keep his speed/aestheticism too. Most of our afl players at that height are in the low to mid 90kg range. The few players in the 100kg+ range are usually a lot taller than 6'3.

Also someone called him out on his stats and he posted this picture: http://i.imgur.com/nTnMx.jpg (he's in the middle).

I think it's more our approach, as i was quite surprised about some comments from essendon players when the weapon came in as you'd think that a lot of his training would be a given at that level.

They're black and have access to HGH.

 

[Jab]

Ok what about this bloke. He retained the heavyweight UFC title on the weekend.

He has to be able fight for 5-five minute rounds at full intesity. 1 minute rest in between rounds.

I'd be willing to back his cardio against anyone in the AFL.

He is 193cm - 115kg. He couldn't play, say Centre half forward with a few stints on the ball, the way Buddy and Pav do?

Thats not entirely true, but I am a huge JDS fan!

JDS has never fought a 5 round fight in his life. Ever. He might train for a 5 round (5 x 5minute) fight, but 5 round fights are only main event (as of this year, previously they weren't), or a championship fight.

JDS has finished his first 5 round fight in under 90 seconds, the next in under 8 mins. He is an awesome athlete, but he has never had his cardio tested in a 5 round fight in competition. In fact, he went the full 3 rounds with Roy "big Country" Nelson and he looked gassed in the 3rd. He is supposed to be able to withstand a 5 round fight, but when was the last 5 round heavyweight fight in the UFC? Never. They don't last that long to find out.

I would not back his cardio against anyone in the AFL, although he has good cardio. Cain Velasquez is considered to have the best cardio in the UFC Heavyweight division, but JDS knocked him out before he has a chance to shown us the difference.

No question that Junior Dos Santos is a beast though, it would be interesting to see him in a different environment.

 

[Jab]

Long time listener, first time caller.

I have some noob-ish questions, but I’ll ask anyway. I have been going to gyms for about 12 years on and off. I have played sport when I was younger to a reasonably high level, but I am now approaching 30 I am 6 feet 1 (186 cms) and I am now 86 kgs. 2 years ago I had a back issue which pretty much put me off for 18 months. It would have been quicker but I tried to come back too soon.

Long story short, I am back at the gym and I feel like everything has changed and that I am at the crossroads. I used to be a cardio machine, I loved it! I use to hate the weights (other than doing squats), but now I don’t. Everything has reversed. I now hate the cardio and I love the weights. The issue is that I am trying to lose as much body fat as I can and get my 6 pack back.

My question to you guys is, what is the best way that I can do this? I am willing to go to the gym 5 days a week (currently 3) but have the weekends off. I have to be careful with heavy squats (I am doing barbarian squats, or single leg) and avoid deadlifts. I could probably do full deadlifts tough, but I was doing 4 sets of 8 at 120kgs when I did my back.

So, can I change how I used to do tings and get a similar result? Can I do more weight related exercises, rep based, but less cardio, and get what I am after?

For anyone that knows what they are talking about and replies, thank you

 

[WakeUpPies]

Dat dere black genetics and celltech is a lethal combination indeed.

 

[Slattery_20]

Ok what about this bloke. He retained the heavyweight UFC title on the weekend.

He has to be able fight for 5-five minute rounds at full intesity. 1 minute rest in between rounds.

I'd be willing to back his cardio against anyone in the AFL.

He is 193cm - 115kg. He couldn't play, say Centre half forward with a few stints on the ball, the way Buddy and Pav do?

~25 minutes at best (with 1min breaks every 5min)
Vs
~100 minutes (with 1-2min breaks every 8-10min)

I don't really see the comparison here.

I'd be willing to bet any (seasoned) AFL player would run him off his legs by the 2nd quarter at the latest.

 

[J_Moore]

It's also a different form of aerobic exertion. He's throwing punches and grappling in a small ring, AFL players are running kilometres on a big paddock.

At a guess, I'd imagine that carrying an extra 10-20 kilos makes running a bit more difficult than it does boxing or wrestling, just because you move the extra weight further for longer.