Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

god or advanced entity?

  • god

    Votes: 14 40.0%
  • advanced entity

    Votes: 21 60.0%

  • Total voters
    35
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skilts

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It feels like a book, with pages and ink and stuff.
It says : dribble v.and n. 1. (let) flow in drops or trickling stream (of child etc.) run at the mouth.
2. (Footb. hockey etc) move (ball) forward with slight touches of feet or of stick.
(var of DRIP).
Splotches on a page gave you access to god. Right.

Liquids dribble, not words.

Edit: I've just realised that the inarticulate buffoon probably meant 'drivelling pat'. Not that this makes any more sense. Gee, it's hard work trying to understand people who are unable to say what they mean.
 

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Do you even yourself believe the tripe that you come out with?
I understand trolling etc, but rehashing old and foolish lines for cheap points
in a futile effort to try to show that you are knowledgeable about the subject
when in fact, you are quite ignorant, does nobody any service.
What an interesting post. You are attempting to take the high ground and be dismissive whilst launching a blatant ad-hominem strategy to completely divert away from my questions/points.

Attacking the poster is no way to answer my questions. Perhaps you don't like the answers and have trouble confronting the reality of the absurdity that is christianity? or any other supernatural faith based religion for that matter.
So, yeah attack the poster. Great defence of the faith.

The fact you reduce the many many many flaws of the bible and label them as cheap points is revealing, considering it's the foundational sacred holy text of christianity.
 
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Oh, come on, all that revisionist tripe. Actually do some research and you'll find that the story of Jesus does not mirror any of the other legends of gods.
As uncomfortable as it may be for you, christian mythology has elements from some gods that pre date christianity.
Budda, krisha, zoroastra, odysseus, romulus. It goes on.

http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/
http://www.nairaland.com/25494/godmen-predating-jesus
http://mistyhorizon2003.hubpages.com/hub/Christs-Life-Story--or-was-it-You-decide
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/12031

Is it sheer coincidence for you?

It would be rather naive to completely dismiss and cultural influence of the greeks, romans, egyptians or persians around the time christian mythology was being formed.
 

Bennett.

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As uncomfortable as it may be for you, christian mythology has elements from some gods that pre date christianity.
Budda, krisha, zoroastra, odysseus, romulus. It goes on.

http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/
http://www.nairaland.com/25494/godmen-predating-jesus
http://mistyhorizon2003.hubpages.com/hub/Christs-Life-Story--or-was-it-You-decide
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/12031

Is it sheer coincidence for you?

It would be rather naive to completely dismiss and cultural influence of the greeks, romans, egyptians or persians around the time christian mythology was being formed.

I acknowledge that SOME faiths have a VERY few similarities, but some quick checking of the facts will show that the other 'copied' gods are nothing like Jesus.
I mean, Odysseus? seriously? that is a very long bow to draw (sorry, but I quite liked that pun!)

Here is a site that can answer most of those myths quite rationally and easily.

http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html

If you take the time to lok, you will find that the alleged similarities are extremely flimsy - it's almost as if people are trying to force square pegs into round holes to
find these similarities.
 

timskul

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Anyone can come up with a few links suggesting stuff about history. Unfortunately the advent of the internet means no way of regulating information that is reliable to that which isn't. So you putting arguments up labelling them as truth, is as good as me finding any link and labelling it as truth. So here's my unsubstantiated website, which may or may not be exactly true, and I'm willing to admit I can't ultimately know beyond my limited study on the religion as I'm no scholar on Hinduism for example.

http://thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html

It seems I've just been beaten with another site
 
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I acknowledge that SOME faiths have a VERY few similarities, but some quick checking of the facts will show that the other 'copied' gods are nothing like Jesus.
I mean, Odysseus? seriously? that is a very long bow to draw (sorry, but I quite liked that pun!)

Here is a site that can answer most of those myths quite rationally and easily.

http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html

If you take the time to lok, you will find that the alleged similarities are extremely flimsy - it's almost as if people are trying to force square pegs into round holes to
find these similarities.
Firstly, it's refreshing you replied for once without a personal attack. Well done.

No single website offers empirical proof for either face of this question. There can be no doubt that many cultural influences which include pre-existing deities complete with their own mythologies were of some influence of the formation of the bible.

Now, whether you wish to label similarities as sheer coincidence or as conscious or unconscious influence from various cultures or a mixture of everything is the enjoyment of the debate. Whilst comparing these mythologies the problem remains some are snap-shot from what we can piece together from antiquity, others, such as christianity have had milennia to be revised and even inspire off-shots (such as jehovah's witnesses or mormonism). What will be said in another two thousand years if human civilization survives that long about the offshoots of christianity? What about other recent mythology such as scientology?

The fact that historical jesus and the supernatural claims of his life is a mystery in itself lends further to this fascinating topic of mythology and it's creation.
 

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Bennett.

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Firstly, it's refreshing you replied for once without a personal attack. Well done.

No single website offers empirical proof for either face of this question. There can be no doubt that many cultural influences which include pre-existing deities complete with their own mythologies were of some influence of the formation of the bible.

Now, whether you wish to label similarities as sheer coincidence or as conscious or unconscious influence from various cultures or a mixture of everything is the enjoyment of the debate. Whilst comparing these mythologies the problem remains some are snap-shot from what we can piece together from antiquity, others, such as christianity have had milennia to be revised and even inspire off-shots (such as jehovah's witnesses or mormonism). What will be said in another two thousand years if human civilization survives that long about the offshoots of christianity? What about other recent mythology such as scientology?

The fact that historical jesus and the supernatural claims of his life is a mystery in itself lends further to this fascinating topic of mythology and it's creation.

see, one of the first things people need to realise is that the gospels in particular and books like the Acts are full of actual history and real people. There is no chance at all that Christianity would have survived 20 years after the crucifixion if it was easy to discredit or disprove! If it was pure mythology it would have been impossible to survive. There IS something in this! There are plenty of other mythological religions if you like, like scientology, but none of them have the unique characteristics of the teachings and actions of Jesus. They truly are distinct. Now, there are definitely a couple of ways of looking at the 'revisions' if you will of Christianity. One is purely changing methodologies to remain relevant and responsive in an ever changing world. The other, and more controversial which people seem to like, is revisionist theology which rips apart the fabric and nature of the faith in order to make it easily palatable for skeptics, non-believers etc. Unfortunately this is a common thing but it does not represent real Christianity. There is a core truth in the faith that even 2000 years after the fact can not and has not changed. That is that Jesus came into the world to give his life so that everybody could be in a relationship with God and have the promise of eternity with him. This can't be argued away at all.
 

Bennett.

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Do you believe in evolution Spartanwa? If not, do you believe in atoms?
It would be spectacularly stupid not to believe that some things evolve.
I haven't seen something evolve from one species to another though, and I do not believe that humans are evolved from marine life!
 

Monniehawk

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Do you believe in evolution Spartanwa? If not, do you believe in atoms?
I don't believe in 6 o'clock in the morning.

Never seen it, and it's never done anything for me or to me.
Just another urban myth drummed up by shift-workers, farmers and the like to make 'emselves feel important. :D
 

Roylion

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well actually, there is, but it is whether or not people choose to see it.
Choose to see it? Is this evidence something we need to 'see' or interpret 'correctly' through faith?

What's your definition of "abundance of proof"?

The Gospels no doubt. Are these historical documents? Were they written as historical recordings of the life of Jesus of Nazareth? Or were there other factors at play that caused them to assembled?

Just how much is the Jesus of the Gospels a literary character, rather than a historical individual? Perhaps the Jesus of the Gospels is a combination of a number of other historical characters in the same way as the King Arthur cycle is believed by many scholars to be a combination of the deeds of a number of lesser historical figures.
 

Bennett.

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Choose to see it? Is this evidence something we need to 'see' or interpret 'correctly' through faith?

What's your definition of "abundance of proof"?

The Gospels no doubt. Are these historical documents? Were they written as historical recordings of the life of Jesus of Nazareth? Or were there other factors at play that caused them to assembled?

Just how much is the Jesus of the Gospels a literary character, rather than a historical individual? Perhaps the Jesus of the Gospels is a combination of a number of other historical characters in the same way as the King Arthur cycle is believed by many scholars to be a combination of the deeds of a number of lesser historical figures.
well, let's start with one historical and non-christian text

Tacitus: "Christus, the founder of the [Christian] name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. But the
pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, by through the city of Rome also." Annals XV, 44
 

Bennett.

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apparently then a man named Jesus did exist, started the Christian religion, was executed by Pilate, Christianity spread to Judea and then later Rome.

Now, this is a historical text. I'm sure though that there will be a response calling doubt upon it.
 

Pie eyed

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It was a comment about this signature on Tassieboy:
["God did not make man. Precisely the contrary. Man made God. That's why there are so many gods. Always have been - always will be." - Christopher Hitchens.]
That's from the book of Hitchens. We can argue did Hitchens write it, is the text the same as his draft, is the book real, does skilts exist and so on. In a discussion about the nature of belief then I'm stating what the Biblical deity represents.
When Christians were being destroyed by Rome in 1-2nd century, people of Horus in Egypt were not. So the nature of the 2 groups had to be different.
Hitchens stuck around to promote his book, did world wide lecture tours, both expanding on and clarifying his meaning....over a very long period of time.
If Partridge had written a book, at the very minimum 70 years after Hitchens death, claiming to be espousing the thoughts of Hitchens (sorry Partridge you just happened to be the last post.) and colouring it with his, Partridges. interpretations of Hitchens meaning then you'd have a like situation. Even then there is evidence Hitchens existed and his thoughts are well documented not only in his myriad other writings but also through a vast array ofinterview and critique from his peers and foe alike.

So no ....you cannot argue that what Hitchensown writing are not his own writings.

Jesus wrote nothing.
Conveniently the son of a God, a God himself, was incapable of performing the task of a mere scribe.
Then again he was described, third hand, a generation at least, later as a simple man.:rolleyes:
 

Roylion

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well, let's start with one historical and non-christian text

Tacitus: "Christus, the founder of the [Christian] name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. But the
pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, by through the city of Rome also." Annals XV, 44
On first reading, Tacitus' writings suggest that a person called Jesus once existed. However some have considered that Tacticus' writings are far from contemporaneous, being written almost eighty years after the supposed event. The reference to Christ is merely a passing reference while discussing something else, to explain how the Christians got their name. Others have claimed that Tacitus did not base the reference on official records as, if they had existed, they would have called the victim ‘Jesus’, instead of ‘Christ’ and given Pilate his proper title of ‘prelate’.

Perhaps most damning to the authenticity of what Tacitus wrote about Jesus is the fact that it is present almost word-for-word in the Chronicle of Sulpicius Severus (died in AD 403), where it is mixed in with obviously false tales. At the same time, it is highly unlikely that Sulpicius could have copied this passage from Tacitus, as none of his contemporaries mention the passage. This means that it was probably not in the Tacitus manuscripts at that date in AD 403. It is much more likely, then, that copyists working in the Dark Ages from the only existing manuscript of the Chronicle, simply copied the passage from Sulpicius into the manuscript of Tacitus which they were also reproducing.

There are a number of other serious difficulties which must be answered before Tacitus' Jesus passage can be accepted as genuine. There is no other historical proof that Nero persecuted the Christians at all. There certainly were not multitudes of Christians in Rome at that date (circa 60 A.D.). In fact, the term "Christian" was not in common use in the first century. We know Nero was indifferent to various religions in his city, and, since he almost definitely did not start the fire in Rome, he did not need any group to be his scapegoat. Tacitus does not use the name Jesus, and writes as if the reader would know the name Pontius Pilate, two things which show that Tacitus was not working from official records or writing for non-Christian audiences, both of which we would expect him to have done if the passage were genuine.

It's also interesting that only two unrelated Christian monasteries had any interest in preserving Tacitus' Annals, and neither of them preserved the whole thing, but each less than half of it, and by shear luck alone, they each preserved a different half. And yet there are still large gaps in it. One of those gaps is the removal of the years 29, 30, and 31 (precisely, the latter part of 29, all of 30, and the earlier part of 31 - the years Jesus' ministry, death, and resurrection were widely believed at the time to have occurred).

Scholars such as E.P. Sanders note, "Roman sources that mention [Jesus] are all dependent on Christian reports." And even renowned Christian apologist William Lane Craig states that Tacitus' statement is "no doubt dependent on Christian tradition."

On top of that no early Christian writer uses Tacitus' passage in their apologetics, even when discussing Christian persecution by Nero:
* Tertullian (ca. 155–230)
* Lactantius (ca. 240 - ca. 320)
* Sulpicius Severus (c. 360 – 425)
* Eusebius (ca. 275 – 339)
* Augustine of Hippo (354 – 430)

Tacitus did in fact write a thorough history of the purported times of Jesus and his ministry, and while this work is lost to us, or the relevant parts missing as described above, Tacitus never makes any cross reference to it during his discussion of christians and Nero nor at any other point in his surviving works.
 
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So I checked your Budda site about Somadeva. 1000 years after Christ :
SOMADEVA
1035 - 1085
Indian Poet
Somadeva was a Kashmiri Brahmin who preserved much of India's ancient folklore in the form of tales in verse.
Somadeva wrote a monumental work 'Katha-saritsagara' (Ocean of Rivers of Stories) which resembles medieval European fairy tales with magic, demons, vampires and high adventure.
We haven't even considered at what's happening in other parts of the world at the same time. Imagine what's happening in parts of what is now modern east aisa like China, Korea or Japan. I'm sure there would be no lack of supernatural claims.

Monkey magic king fu high adventure with dragons. Flying on clouds or riding on the edge of lightning bolts across the sky sounds bad ass.
 
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