Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

god or advanced entity?

  • god

    Votes: 14 40.0%
  • advanced entity

    Votes: 21 60.0%

  • Total voters
    35
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Pie eyed

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I didn't see the show could you explain it please?

Matter and anti-matter when in contact cancel each other out, annihilate each other, neither existing as we commonly understand existence. At the moment of annihilation of each particle energy is released. Energy from nothing.
On the flip side you can create matter and anti-matter particles using energy, as they do in the LHC.

The key tenet of Hawking's theory is that prior to the big bang there was no time. Therefore there is no need to posit what existed before the big bang as there is no "before the big bang". Time, space, gravity, energy and matter were all created in the big bang.

I could happily live with people calling the big bang, God if they like as the event was theoretically the genesis of our entire universe, and ultimately life and consciousness.

But this God has no idea why or what it created, no agenda, no plan for human kind and especially no set of rules for us to live by. It was simply an event without any conscious plan. It certainly had no hand in impregnating some Jewish woman with the express notion of creating a mechanism for forgiveness for the man made concept of sin.
 

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By questioning the Man that we devote our entire EXISTENCE and ETERNITY to, it is like you are disrespecting us personally. Christianity is many things to us, and a hobby isn't one of them. It is a lifestyle. So naturally, many Christians will get very defensive about Jesus.
So you have a ready made excuse to attack people who question the evidence that is forwarded for christianity or any other religion for that matter. To buy into something so unerringly seems silly. No one system of viewpoint can possibly provide you with an entire comprehensive philosophical system to approach life. Religion doesn't even seem to have any mechanism to adapt to change.

I'm not like that to an extent. I'll listen to what you people have to say. It's when people expect us Christians to respect the atheist opinion on Jesus, but they don't respect our opinion back, that I get pretty bugged. If I had a penny for every time I've been told I'm wasting my life or I'm following a fairy tale, and then I get beat up for preaching back! I don't care if what you're saying ends up being the cold hard damned truth. If you don't preach your views down my throat, I won't do it to you. Simple as that.
Therein lies the problem with ever trying to reason with a religious zealots.

I hate the Jehovah's Witnesses knocking at my door on the weekends, so I don't like to preach about Christianity to the unwilling , knowing how annoying it can be on the receiving end. Just try not to do the same. And if you do do the same, then you SHOULD expect some upset Christians.
I fail to see how asking a question is anything remotely like the proselytising that accompanies religion. By framing an atheistic or agnostic viewpoint like that you are trying to make it out to be a religious viewpoint. It isn't. It's a reasoned answer to single question.

I don't know where you got the nerve to beat up Christians for not respecting atheistic opinion while going ahead and not respecting Christian opinion (actually yes I do know, you got it from the computer store ;) ). But work on that logic, and you'll get a far bigger audience willing to intelligently and fairly counteract your views.
How is asking a question "beating up" christians. Is the search for knowledge so offensive to those that want to accept things on faith without evidence?
Not even sure what the computer store wink face comment is all about.
You whine about demanding equal respect. A couple of millennia has shown us the amount of respect and tolerance abrahamic religions have had for anything that does not conform to their sacred text's. It's all us or them and nothing else.
 

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I watched the Hawking doco as well. Personally, I don't see how a 'infinitely dense' singularity equates to "nothing".

In my less-than-humble opinion he should stick to physics and leave ontology to the philosophers.
 

bombermick

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Matter and anti-matter when in contact cancel each other out, annihilate each other, neither existing as we commonly understand existence. At the moment of annihilation of each particle energy is released. Energy from nothing.
On the flip side you can create matter and anti-matter particles using energy, as they do in the LHC.

The key tenet of Hawking's theory is that prior to the big bang there was no time. Therefore there is no need to posit what existed before the big bang as there is no "before the big bang". Time, space, gravity, energy and matter were all created in the big bang.

I could happily live with people calling the big bang, God if they like as the event was theoretically the genesis of our entire universe, and ultimately life and consciousness.

But this God has no idea why or what it created, no agenda, no plan for human kind and especially no set of rules for us to live by. It was simply an event without any conscious plan. It certainly had no hand in impregnating some Jewish woman with the express notion of creating a mechanism for forgiveness for the man made concept of sin.
So where did the singularity come from? By my very limited understanding, it's not 'nothing' as we would think of it. I understand the basic theory, but getting your head around it is very, very difficult. It's why creation myths are still so powerful.

EDIT: As for the atheism v Christianity argument, I can see it from both sides. The attitude from religious folks (particularly in the US) in trying to force their (largely) unscientific beliefs in schools is ridiculous. But so is the arrogance of those like Dawkins, who seem to enjoy pulling down religion - even I can sometimes understand his frustrations.
 

evo

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Matter and anti-matter when in contact cancel each other out, annihilate each other, neither existing as we commonly understand existence.
Mathematically that may makes sense, but in reality it doesn't. Hawking is confusing his mathematics with reality - confusing the map with the terrain.
 

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So you have a ready made excuse to attack people who question the evidence that is forwarded for christianity or any other religion for that matter.
You've misunderstood. I don't mind people mocking my views, as long as they don't get all fussy about me mocking their's.

Therein lies the problem with ever trying to reason with a religious zealots.
You chose to come onto the SRP board, so there really is no point in complaining about reasoning with us. No one's forcing you to.

How is asking a question "beating up" christians.
I wasn't referring to you. But you weren't asking a question anyway, you were generalising us all into unreasonable, stubborn weirdos that can't make a proper argument. Which, by the way, is untrue.

Is the search for knowledge so offensive to those that want to accept things on faith without evidence?
"Your religion is a fairytale!" is not a search for knowledge last time I checked.

Not even sure what the computer store wink face comment is all about.
What I meant was that I doubt you'd have the confidence to crap talk someone like that without guaranteed safety behind a computer screen. We don't all call people loons when we disagree, and I think you should know that.

You whine about demanding equal respect. A couple of millennia has shown us the amount of respect and tolerance abrahamic religions have had for anything that does not conform to their sacred text's. It's all us or them and nothing else.
You're talking like I have control over them. I don't agree with a lot of things past Christians have done.

All I am saying is that I strongly disagree with your original generalisation, and the only reason a Christian would say that is because you're attacking their religion with personal comments. You make us seem like bad guys for daring to defend our religion. There are better arguments than "loon" out there, but there are also better arguments than "your religion is a fairytale".
 

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So where did the singularity come from? By my very limited understanding, it's not 'nothing' as we would think of it. I understand the basic theory, but getting your head around it is very, very difficult. It's why creation myths are still so powerful.

EDIT: As for the atheism v Christianity argument, I can see it from both sides. The attitude from religious folks (particularly in the US) in trying to force their (largely) unscientific beliefs in schools is ridiculous. But so is the arrogance of those like Dawkins, who seem to enjoy pulling down religion - even I can sometimes understand his frustrations.
In Quantum Mechanics particles pop in and out of existence spontaneously. This has been thoroughly witnessed and documented.
The pre-big bang singularity is theorized to have been all of the matter and energy, two sides of the same coin, in our universe compressed down to a single object smaller than a single sub-atomic particle. At this size the entire universe behaves like any other sub-atomic particle.

http://discover.positron.edu.au/matter-or-antimatter/what-is-antimatter/

 

GetDimmaBack

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Malfice, the problem is how did God/s get there? If he/she always existed, why can't a universe? I believe there has to be a supernatural cause, but we can never know what that is.
Quantum mechanics allows for particles to pop in and out of existence, and scientists have created particles with nothing but a magnetic field in a vacuum.
BM, as I understand it God is spirit, existing outside of time. The universe is subject to the limitations of time, and entropy, that don't exist outside of time.
The universe, as God created it, is a creation of God's, not a part of God in the fact of its existence.

God exists in a timeless - and therefore eternal - dimension. He has created a world which is physical.


From my own limited perspective,

I find it difficult to accept that matter could have created itself. If that was true, why wouldn't matter continue to make new things, living or otherwise?

Lots of questions come to mind over the idea of matter being its own creator: why did it create itself?
To do so, would matter not have to be a thinking entity, or at least have some sense of purpose or direction?
Why did matter create a limited life span for all living beings - ie why did it create its own death? Not just for individual beings, but for matter itself. The universe, eventually, will wind down, the sun will eventually cease to exist...

These are just some musings of mine. They are not the ravings of a fundamentalist, just things I think about.
 
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Which of course still leaves the question of what is this supernatural 'force'?
Being supernatural (and able to do stuff like exist 'in' nothing, and create something from nothing) its impossible to define further.

Is it any functionally any different then saying "I have no idea and am just making shit up" ?
Nope, becuase this is logically valid.

Assuming one places any weight on logic of course.
 
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In Quantum Mechanics particles pop in and out of existence spontaneously. This has been thoroughly witnessed and documented.
They need a universe and space to pop in and out of, time to exist for them to pop anywhere in this space, and an observer to give them form.

Your theory fails due to lack of a universe for sub atomic particles to pop into.
 

bombermick

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In Quantum Mechanics particles pop in and out of existence spontaneously. This has been thoroughly witnessed and documented.
The pre-big bang singularity is theorized to have been all of the matter and energy, two sides of the same coin, in our universe compressed down to a single object smaller than a single sub-atomic particle. At this size the entire universe behaves like any other sub-atomic particle.

http://discover.positron.edu.au/matter-or-antimatter/what-is-antimatter/

I know particles pop in and out of existence, but the singularity still doesn't sound like 'nothing'. A dense, black hole type structure isn't nothing as I understand it.

The program wrote off any god, but it seems like existence was a miracle. Matter, anti-matter, space and time all came into existence at exactly the same time - all with their own laws that continue to this day.
 

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BM, as I understand it God is spirit, existing outside of time. The universe is subject to the limitations of time, and entropy, that don't exist outside of time.
There are deep problems with the current definition and prescribed powers of the Abrahamic God.

For starters in a Universe with an infallible, omniscient and omnipotent creator, free will logically cant exist.

If you want to believe in an Abrahamic God then (logically):

a) God is fallible (i.e. not omniscient and omnipotent). Human sin wasnt intended, and God can be proven wrong. Result - Human free will can exist. In other words, Lucifer was right.

or

b) God is infallible.(i.e. He is omniscient and omnipotent). Human Sin was intended by God, and God can not be proven wrong. Result - Human free will cannot exist. It is merely an illusion. Human suffering, the torture of Jesus, mankinds fall from grace, war death anf fmaine is all part of Gods plan. Ironically, if this is true, Lucifer was also right.

Logically we should probably be worshipping Lucifer.
 

bombermick

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There are deep problems with the current definition and prescribed powers of the Abrahamic God.

For starters in a Universe with an infallible, omniscient and omnipotent creator, free will logically cant exist.

If you want to believe in an Abrahamic God then (logically):

a) God is fallible (i.e. not omniscient and omnipotent). Human sin wasnt intended, and God can be proven wrong. Result - Human free will can exist. In other words, Lucifer was right.

or

b) God is infallible.(i.e. He is omniscient and omnipotent). Human Sin was intended by God, and God can not be proven wrong. Result - Human free will cannot exist. It is merely an illusion. Human suffering, the torture of Jesus, mankinds fall from grace, war death anf fmaine is all part of Gods plan. Ironically, if this is true, Lucifer was also right.

Logically we should probably be worshipping Lucifer.
Although it can be argued we choose sin (although nobody apart from Adam and Eve did), the bible seems to make it clear that nobody chooses to be saved, but it's God that chooses you.

Rom 8:21-30 " For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

There are other similar verses, but what I get from them is if you're not part of that select group, you have been screwed for all of eternity. Even if you wanted to accept Jesus, you were incapable of it.
 

porksy

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There are deep problems with the current definition and prescribed powers of the Abrahamic God.

For starters in a Universe with an infallible, omniscient and omnipotent creator, free will logically cant exist.

If you want to believe in an Abrahamic God then (logically):

a) God is fallible (i.e. not omniscient and omnipotent). Human sin wasnt intended, and God can be proven wrong. Result - Human free will can exist. In other words, Lucifer was right.

or

b) God is infallible.(i.e. He is omniscient and omnipotent). Human Sin was intended by God, and God can not be proven wrong. Result - Human free will cannot exist. It is merely an illusion. Human suffering, the torture of Jesus, mankinds fall from grace, war death anf fmaine is all part of Gods plan. Ironically, if this is true, Lucifer was also right.

Logically we should probably be worshipping Lucifer.
This one's pretty easy to solve from a Christian POV.

a) God is fallible (i.e. not omniscient and omnipotent). Human sin wasnt intended, and God can be proven wrong. Result - Human free will can exist. In other words, Lucifer was right.
The most common Christian belief is that God created free will. If He knows everything, then He will know what choice we will make out of our own free will. Just because He knows what is going to happen, doesn't mean he is making the decisions for us. Our belief is that He has known from the start everything that WE would choose.

b) God is infallible.(i.e. He is omniscient and omnipotent). Human Sin was intended by God, and God can not be proven wrong. Result - Human free will cannot exist. It is merely an illusion. Human suffering, the torture of Jesus, mankinds fall from grace, war death anf fmaine is all part of Gods plan. Ironically, if this is true, Lucifer was also right.
God did not intend for sin to happen. Sin is something that formed from the Devil's and the fallen angels' free will.

I'm sure that if God could choose, he would want us to all live in a crimeless, peaceful, beautiful world. God knew that Satan and Co. would rebel against him, but it wasn't what He wanted. Satan wanted more power than God, and he got it. He got power over the human race. You can see it more and more come each generation, Satan may be dragging way more people into Hell than God is into Heaven, if there is indeed a Heaven or Hell.
 

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There are deep problems with the current definition and prescribed powers of the Abrahamic God.

For starters in a Universe with an infallible, omniscient and omnipotent creator, free will logically cant exist.

If you want to believe in an Abrahamic God then (logically):

a) God is fallible (i.e. not omniscient and omnipotent). Human sin wasnt intended, and God can be proven wrong. Result - Human free will can exist. In other words, Lucifer was right.

or

b) God is infallible.(i.e. He is omniscient and omnipotent). Human Sin was intended by God, and God can not be proven wrong. Result - Human free will cannot exist. It is merely an illusion. Human suffering, the torture of Jesus, mankinds fall from grace, war death anf fmaine is all part of Gods plan. Ironically, if this is true, Lucifer was also right.

Logically we should probably be worshipping Lucifer.
Point b) is kind of the position many Christians take - there has been 2,000 years of debate re free will vs. determinism. Not that determinists would ever reach that conclusion via your methodology!
 
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Although it can be argued we choose sin (although nobody apart from Adam and Eve did), the bible seems to make it clear that nobody chooses to be saved, but it's God that chooses you.
It goes beyond that a little mate.

God also knew Adam and Eve were going to sin, and how everything was going to end up as a result.

God knew it before he made them.

God could have written it all down in a book before the event if he chose to.

Eve really had no choice at all. She couldnt have chosen 'not to Sin' because God already knew she would. Ergo, Eve not sinning was never an option. Her 'free will' was simply an illusion.

Just like yours is.
 

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Although it can be argued we choose sin (although nobody apart from Adam and Eve did), the bible seems to make it clear that nobody chooses to be saved, but it's God that chooses you.

Rom 8:21-30 " For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

There are other similar verses, but what I get from them is if you're not part of that select group, you have been screwed for all of eternity. Even if you wanted to accept Jesus, you were incapable of it.
I'm pretty sure you're talking about the Calvinist reform/St Augustine's idea of predestination.

Ever thought that verse could be referring to babies in their mothers' wombs? God knew before they were a mere sperm in the race to the egg that they would live an Earthly life. So they were "predestined" or "chosen" to live. Also states in the Bible that EVERYONE is made in the image of God, so your verse most probably is referring to ALL humans, and not just a chosen group of elites.

There are many, many Bible verses that also state "Anything is possible through Jesus". So taking that into account too, the 'predestined group' theory is most likely false
 
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This one's pretty easy to solve from a Christian POV.



The most common Christian belief is that God created free will. If He knows everything, then He will know what choice we will make out of our own free will. Just because He knows what is going to happen, doesn't mean he is making the decisions for us. Our belief is that He has known from the start everything that WE would choose.


God did not intend for sin to happen. Sin is something that formed from the Devil's and the fallen angels' free will.

I'm sure that if God could choose, he would want us to all live in a crimeless, peaceful, beautiful world. God knew that Satan and Co. would rebel against him, but it wasn't what He wanted. Satan wanted more power than God, and he got it. He got power over the human race. You can see it more and more come each generation, Satan may be dragging way more people into Hell than God is into Heaven, if there is indeed a Heaven or Hell.
Exactly this. Could you please answer malifice why free will would contradict this at all? God knows we will sin, doesn't not make us but we ourselves do it out of the same free will that allows us to choose to love God rather then being forced to do it. He didn't design us for sin but he designed us with freedom. In fact the Christian God that is widely accepted probably couldn't exist w/o free will because other wise every one would be a Christian wouldn't they?
 

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It goes beyond that a little mate.

God also knew Adam and Eve were going to sin, and how everything was going to end up as a result.

God knew it before he made them.

God could have written it all down in a book before the event if he chose to.

Eve really had no choice at all. She couldnt have chosen 'not to Sin' because God already knew she would. Ergo, Eve not sinning was never an option. Her 'free will' was simply an illusion.

Just like yours is.
I don't understand your point. Just because God KNOWS it will happen, doesn't mean he scripted every word she would say. Everybody has free will, and God KNEW what Eve would do and what it would lead to.
 
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The most common Christian belief is that God created free will. If He knows everything, then He will know what choice we will make out of our own free will. Just because He knows what is going to happen, doesn't mean he is making the decisions for us. Our belief is that He has known from the start everything that WE would choose.
Hyopthetical for you.

This 'God' character knows everything you will do before you do it. He is also infallible.

Assume you stand before 2 doors; a red door and a blue one. You have to choose a single door. Before you make this choice 'God' tells you which door you are going to go through (he already knows of course, and its impossible to prove him wrong).

Can you change your selection and prove God wrong?

God did not intend for sin to happen.
Yes he did. He intended for everything to happen. He knew it would happen before he created anything (he's omniscient). He is powerfull enough to create things differently (he's also omnipotent) yet he choose not to.

The counter proposition is that God was caught by 'surprise' by Lucifer and didnt forsee the 'fall'. Which (as he is omniscient) is impossible.

I'm sure that if God could choose, he would want us to all live in a crimeless, peaceful, beautiful world.
God has that exact power (he's omnipotent remember). He clearly chooses otherwise.
 
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Exactly this. Could you please answer malifice why free will would contradict this at all?
Because you dont have 'free will' when your decisions are preordained by God.

Its not a choice when the outcome is already known.

He didn't design us for sin
Yes, he clearly did!

He designed us with the capacity to sin (he could have designed us otherwsie), already knowing we would.
 
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Hyopthetical for you.

This 'God' character knows everything you will do before you do it. He is also infallible.

Assume you stand before 2 doors; a red door and a blue one. You have to choose a single door. Before you make this choice 'God' tells you which door you are going to go through (he already knows of course, and its impossible to prove him wrong).
.
That's not the concept of God though. That not what happens as your argument is that God forces people to do things- no free will. Porksy has mentioned many times that God knows what we're going to do but does NOT force us to do it. It's not like Gods playing a video game controlling our lives but he is watching it happen like watching an ant colony...we're doing things ourselves.

Again:

1. The Christian God as I understand it wants us to love him by choice and does not force us to love him
2. To make that choice we need free will.
3. God and free will exist together (assuming there is God)

What I think you don't understand is God created us with the ability to sin but not TO sin.
 

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Hyopthetical for you.

This 'God' character knows everything you will do before you do it. He is also infallible.

Assume you stand before 2 doors; a red door and a blue one. You have to choose a single door. Before you make this choice 'God' tells you which door you are going to go through (he already knows of course, and its impossible to prove him wrong).
But that will never, ever realistically happen will it?

I think it's pretty ridiculous that a human would be able to outsmart the dude who knows literally EVERYTHING.

Yes he did. He intended for everything to happen. He knew it would happen before he created anything. He is powerfull enough to create things differently yet he chose not to
He knew it would happen, but he did not WANT it to happen. That is why it is called FREE will. Not half will, not bound will. FREE will.

He chose not to create things differently, because he thought it fair that we all get a say in our own decisions. He knew sin would happen, but as part of the free will law, he did not alter his agreement with Satan. Instead he found a way around it, sending his son to Earth in the hopes that humans would turn from the Devil.
 
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