Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

god or advanced entity?

  • god

    Votes: 14 40.0%
  • advanced entity

    Votes: 21 60.0%

  • Total voters
    35
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porksy

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28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Deuteronomy 22 28-29 NIV (Bible Gateway)

Classic BS courtesy of the 'bible'

I'll be back with more folks
What's so BS about that?

I've been raped myself and I don't see your point.
 

bombermick

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If God is powerful enough to kickstart a universe, why would humanity be his no.1 concern? I can imagine he would have better things to do.

There's no reason to suggest he should only be fulfilled when he is worshipped. If intelligent alien life is ever discovered this issue will forever die.
 

GetDimmaBack

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If God is powerful enough to kickstart a universe, why would humanity be his no.1 concern? I can imagine he would have better things to do.

There's no reason to suggest he should only be fulfilled when he is worshipped. If intelligent alien life is ever discovered this issue will forever die.
Why is that, Mick? Genuine question.
 
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Ok Malifice, I've just thought of this and it sounds good in my head...

Say a guy tries to live his life as good a Christian as he can. He has temptation but he tries to ignore them. He then learns about a God where free will doesn't exist and adheres to the beliefs that life is predestined. He then falls into his own temptation and goes on a crime spree and he has self justification because he believes God knows he will go on that crime spree so it doesn't matter, he can't change it. He then decides to murder and rape the next day. He just makes the decision that the next girl he sees he will kidnap, rape and murder and he has self justification because he can't change it...apparently, even though this was a sudden decision due to his new beliefs of a predetermined world. He'll ask the Lord for forgiveness, but deep down he doesn't feel guilt because at the end of the day he can sit back and just blame it on the fact that he didn't have a choice. Now tell me that wouldnt be a free will situation (story is fake...I case you're wondering)

Maybe like Tesseract said, God chooses not to know everything. Maybe like the free will defence argument God allows free will sin because free will good requires it....the fact is we don't know.
 

Pie eyed

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God didn't know we humans would sin and rebel, he chose not to know. God could've peered if he wanted to, but he didn't, as demonstrated in the example.

Do I care to explain your accusations? No, for you've already come to your own close-minded, ignorant, conclusion. I will say, that if you understood the main premise of the bible, it'd go a fair way into understanding why God acted as he did. God's actions are explained in the bible. It's such conclusions as you've come to which is why I rarely bother attempting debate on this forum any more. For a forum that makes judgments and accusations against God, they don't even have their facts in order before they go on their troll fest. When it comes to matters pertaining to God, this SR&P board is a festival of ignorance.
God then was much like Pell in that respect.
So we now have a picture of a fallible, conspiratorial God, who tries to hide his complicity behind feigned ignorance?

Complex dude this God, good thing there is no-one to judge him, being omnipotent, or at least superficially omnipotent whenever it suits.
 

fishardansin

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Ok Malifice, I've just thought of this and it sounds good in my head...

Say a guy tries to live his life as good a Christian as he can. He has temptation but he tries to ignore them. He then learns about a God where free will doesn't exist and adheres to the beliefs that life is predestined. He then falls into his own temptation and goes on a crime spree and he has self justification because he believes God knows he will go on that crime spree so it doesn't matter, he can't change it. He then decides to murder and rape the next day. He just makes the decision that the next girl he sees he will kidnap, rape and murder and he has self justification because he can't change it...apparently, even though this was a sudden decision due to his new beliefs of a predetermined world. He'll ask the Lord for forgiveness, but deep down he doesn't feel guilt because at the end of the day he can sit back and just blame it on the fact that he didn't have a choice. Now tell me that wouldnt be a free will situation (story is fake...I case you're wondering)

Maybe like Tesseract said, God chooses not to know everything. Maybe like the free will defence argument God allows free will sin because free will good requires it....the fact is we don't know.
I wouldn't worry about his crime spree. I would worry about his state of mind. I mean how does he cope with the paradox of feeling like he's fought hard to control his impulses only to find out that he didn't really, that his resistance to them was predestined. What continues from here? It doesn't matter what choice he makes because, it is predestined!!

Also on a serious note, there is a lot of research coming out now that shows that much of what we do is predetermined. This feeling of having a conscious mind is a bit of an illusion. We basically can control our subconscious by repetitive training. Our mind and decisions are nothing more then the mere recognition of a serious of parallel computed unconscious decisions.

It is funny that this is turning out to be true because I had this amazingly intense expirenece on LSD once. I was living and working with a guy I'd new for only 6 months. Just a week prior to this he had told me that he'd murdered his grandmother 6 years prior to this and I wasn't sure how to deal with everything, especially seeing I was doing a lot of LSD and ecstacy at the time. It was the night of my sister's 21st and I'd had a lot. He was really tripping me out with what a sleaze bag he was and I wanted to get home. I had fish eye vision but had the work car and had to get it home. I drove from West Melbourne to Port Melbourne with him telling me what was really in front of us all the way home.

When I got home I forced myself to sleep, this was how I would deal with a very strong and unenjoyable trips sometimes. When I finally did I walked myeself around my mind. It was very similar to the scene in the matrix where they have the key maker with a non descript passageway with doors. I was what I thought was my consciousness and inside each room there was a part of my personality, some I was born with some were built from past experience, and I chatted with some of them.

Throughout this experience there was still another voice above me, or inside my thoughts. It was very confusing as to what this voice was. Was it my real consciousness and what I thought was was just another thing, was it my subconscious or was it god?

I think religious people automatically assume that voice is god, through some predetermining factors in their genetic make up and its interaction with their experience.
 

tesseract

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God allows free will sin because free will good requires it....the fact is we don't know.
God allows free-will sin because by doing so God is making a point about his right to rule as sovereign of the universe. Satan is in control of affairs on earth at the moment. God has permitted this in order to make his point - that under Satan's rulership, things will be bad and not perfect as God originally had it. Satan currently being in control is shown in the bible where Jesus was tempted by Satan when Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth if he did just one act of obeisance toward him. Now, if Satan wasn't in control of the earth, he couldn't tempt Jesus with such an offer. God has given Satan a finite amount of time, but enough time to demonstrate to human and spirit beings that He is worthy, not Satan, of ruling over all creation. So, God permits free-will sinning for the time being because all of the badness that is happening in the world is occurring on Satan's watch. God can fix all of the injustices that have occurred under Satan at a later date - that being after He calls time on Satan's period of rulership.
 

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tesseract

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What do we know of the Christain-Judaic God and why did he appear historically so late on the scene?

An omnipotent, timeless god surely appears at the earliest moment.
The Christian God did make Himself known at the beginning of human existence. His dealings with Adam and Eve, the first human man and woman, is recorded in Genesis.
 

fishardansin

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Malifice,

I sometimes wonder if the universe is a computer simulation of a random field. The whole concept that the universe is nothing but a hologram projected from its surface makes me think this is possible. God is the programmer that set the initial conditions and can occasionally interject and Satan is once his assistant who has turned into a hacker!!!!
 

evo

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Malifice,

I sometimes wonder if the universe is a computer simulation of a random field. The whole concept that the universe is nothing but a hologram projected from its surface makes me think this is possible. God is the programmer that set the initial conditions and can occasionally interject and Satan is once his assistant who has turned into a hacker!!!!
For some reason I can't quite put my finger on I've always really like this short vid

 

fishardansin

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For some reason I can't quite put my finger on I've always really like this short vid

I will perhaps watch that later. I suggest you watch a talk by Leonard Suskind where as a world expert on this theory he explains it in a way that is understandable for the lay person:

 

bombermick

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That still isn't incompatible with the Bible.
Besides the problems I've already laid down (various genealogies, how death came into the world), if the creation story isn't true, he's not a very impressive god IMO.

Humanity is meant to be the centre of creation, yet Yahweh waits 4.5 billion years for them. Half of that time there's no life/it's single-celled. In addition, somewhere in the evolutionary journey we acquire souls - even though there would be no giant leap from one species to the next.
 

tesseract

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Adam was not the first human man and Eve was not the first human woman. This is a Biblical myth.
Biblical myth according to a sceptic. What a surprise. You've provided as much reasoning as Old Spice has for his comment. (Que your usual copy and paste job.)
 

bombermick

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Oh, so He didn't, just because you say so. What a compelling argument.:rolleyes: You've got nothing.
He has genetics, geology, biology, archaeology and astronomy to show Genesis is not a trusted, true account.

If they are all wrong, then we have nothing to understand the world - save for an ancient book.
 

tesseract

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He has genetics, geology, biology, archaeology and astronomy to show Genesis is not a trusted, true account.

If they are all wrong, then we have nothing to understand the world - save for an ancient book.
I'm sure he has what some non-believers believe they have which supposedly links the universe and life to that which doesn't include God as the source. There's many such theories around that do similar. If these theories were scientific fact, rather than just theory, similar conversations the world over wouldn't still be being had.
 

bombermick

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I'm sure he has what some non-believers believe they have which supposedly links the universe and life to that which doesn't include God as the source. There's many such theories around that do similar. If these theories were scientific fact, rather than just theory, similar conversations the world over wouldn't still be being had.
Are you talking evolution - which has a mountain of evidence - or other theories like the big bang (with no need for a creator)? I doubt science will ever disprove God, but evolution has a mountain of evidence. There is NO evidence for intelligent design, save for a feeling that life is too complex.

I don't think you realise what a theory in science means.
 

Monniehawk

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I watched the Hawking doco as well. Personally, I don't see how a 'infinitely dense' singularity equates to "nothing".

In my less-than-humble opinion he should stick to physics and leave ontology to the philosophers.
Yep. I had a similar thought and was mainly focussed on his cosmology - which I found to be fascinating.
The God question was probably a bit of a sidetrack and tipped its hat to the Creationists without actually saying anything of substance.
 
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