Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

god or advanced entity?

  • god

    Votes: 14 40.0%
  • advanced entity

    Votes: 21 60.0%

  • Total voters
    35
Status
Not open for further replies.

hardon

Club Legend
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Posts
1,301
Likes
1,075
AFL Club
Hawthorn
If you were to ask me why I believe in God, how can you appreciate the answer I give, when it is evident in the person I have become?
The best proof I can offer is the change in my own life and the lives of others who have given themselves over to the belief in a loving creator.
It transcends my life and changes the way I think, act, interact, treat people and I can go on. My belief has changed me. That is the only proof
I can offer someone. I HAVE and DO critically question my faith, and I have looked at other faith, but there is something genuinely unique
in the christian faith that sets it apart and changes lives. How can someone describe flight unless the other person has experienced it? How can you
believe the pain of someone else unless you have lived it yourself? It can be subjective, but all I can do is offer myself as proof... but still as an imperfect
and broken person who has a lot of work that needs to be done. That is the uniqueness of it - it's grace.

i ask though, why does any of this have to tie in with any god?

whatever words are in the bible seem to bring you to a better place. but they are, in the end, just words. words that could have been written by any human. hell, it was written by humans, for humans, and we can never know if it was ghost-written (no pun intended) by a god.

if the lessons in the bible are good enough then they should stand on their own. there is no logically coherent argument that i can think of that makes a good written lesson hinge on it being divinely delivered.

if there is one then i think it puts you in a pretty shit position. for if you ever did discover that none of the lessons were divinely delivered then suddenly who you thought you were goes down the toilet. but you know this just is not the case. it just doesn't hinge on divinity. the bible could be proved to be fully mortally authored and you should be no worse off for it.

i hear this bollocks that jesus was either insane or divine, no inbetween. this pure bullshit. it is a false dichotomy, set up by fundamentalist spastics to con the layperson into making the obvious choice. they hope the average punter will think "...well, he seemed alright, he clearly wasn't insane, so i guess he was god's son." wankers. i'm pretty sure many mental disorders can be anything from barely noticeable to fully disabling.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

skilts

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Feb 14, 2002
Posts
17,565
Likes
6,093
Location
South-West Gippsland
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Lexton, Northcote Park
I see, the typical personal attacks when you have nothing left. Pathetic.
The attack, if it be that, is upon the woolly thing which apparently passes for thinking in your world. Why would I bother to attack a person who is so defenceless? That's not sport.

Did you embrace god before or after you felt 'the change'? A question simple enough even for you - all part of the larger issue as to whether you have even thought about why you have chosen to adopt the life of a fantasist.
 

Kompany

Premiership Player
Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Posts
4,826
Likes
508
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
The real red devils
If you were to ask me why I believe in God, how can you appreciate the answer I give, when it is evident in the person I have become?
The best proof I can offer is the change in my own life and the lives of others who have given themselves over to the belief in a loving creator.
It transcends my life and changes the way I think, act, interact, treat people and I can go on. My belief has changed me. That is the only proof
I can offer someone. I HAVE and DO critically question my faith, and I have looked at other faith, but there is something genuinely unique
in the christian faith that sets it apart and changes lives. How can someone describe flight unless the other person has experienced it? How can you
believe the pain of someone else unless you have lived it yourself? It can be subjective, but all I can do is offer myself as proof... but still as an imperfect
and broken person who has a lot of work that needs to be done. That is the uniqueness of it - it's grace.
The delusion of there being a god is what you believe to make your life more complete. That is no proof at all. The only thing you say is that this belief has a positive impact on your life. And I'll be the last person to doubt that. But in the end it is still nothing more than a belief.

Let's say I dream about being abducted by aliens. And that dream has such an impact on me that I sincerely start to believe that this actually happened to me. Will you then, hearing my story about how this "event" has changed me personally, as it is the only proof I can offer you, be convinced that I was abducted by aliens?

God is just another delusion, just like people believe there are things like spirits, afterlife, distant stars having an impact on our life, dead people communicating to us and what not. Time and time again we have found out these are silly superstitions and we have also come up with very plausible explanations as to why we tend to have these superstitions. People believe in the craziest things and are under the impression that the most random or remote things have an impact on their personal existence. Or the other way around. The fact that you keep believing how special your belief is only shows how deeply deluded you are.

We're all deluded anyway, based on our personality, past experiences and what we've been told/taught. But I like to think that I'm aware when I'm being delusional.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Kompany

Premiership Player
Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Posts
4,826
Likes
508
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
The real red devils
Thats fine if you think I am delusional.
My experience though would suggest otherwise, but true, how can I relay that to someone?
Your experiences don't suggest anything. Scientologists experience all sorts of things too and are convinced of their delusions as well. Does that make the whole thing real?

Like I said, people believe in all sorts of things and most are convinced their delusions are real.
 

Bennett.

Your training, Matrix
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Posts
22,122
Likes
17,541
Location
Perth
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Maple Leafs, Blue Jays
Which is why it is difficult to describe.
Look, I can go on and on about scriptural confirmation, historicity and whatever, but at the end of the day
by pursuing a belief system - which involves action as much as faith, I know I am a different person,
and other people who know me confirm that.
 

Kompany

Premiership Player
Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Posts
4,826
Likes
508
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
The real red devils
Which is why it is difficult to describe.
Look, I can go on and on about scriptural confirmation, historicity and whatever, but at the end of the day
by pursuing a belief system - which involves action as much as faith, I know I am a different person,
and other people who know me confirm that.
Yeah sure and like I said, I'd be the last person to doubt the effect your faith has on you.

But what about my alien abduction experience? Would you believe me? And why or why not?
 

skilts

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Feb 14, 2002
Posts
17,565
Likes
6,093
Location
South-West Gippsland
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Lexton, Northcote Park
Which is why it is difficult to describe.
Look, I can go on and on about scriptural confirmation, historicity and whatever, but at the end of the day
by pursuing a belief system - which involves action as much as faith, I know I am a different person,
and other people who know me confirm that.
Reduced to the imbecility of communication via emoticon.

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." - Ludwig Wittgenstein.

I think it highly unlikely that anybody on these boards would think of you as anything but 'a different person', if they bothered to think of you at all.
 

Bennett.

Your training, Matrix
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Posts
22,122
Likes
17,541
Location
Perth
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Maple Leafs, Blue Jays
Reduced to the imbecility of communication via emoticon.

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." - Ludwig Wittgenstein.

I think it highly unlikely that anybody on these boards would think of you as anything but 'a different person', if they bothered to think of you at all.

Still slinging mud eh? How apish of you.
 

Bennett.

Your training, Matrix
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Posts
22,122
Likes
17,541
Location
Perth
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Maple Leafs, Blue Jays
Yeah sure and like I said, I'd be the last person to doubt the effect your faith has on you.

But what about my alien abduction experience? Would you believe me? And why or why not?

I honestly have no trouble in believing the supernatural. The difficult thing though, is it is not just experience for me,
it is a lot of study, research, questioning etc that makes it more real I guess.
 

skilts

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Feb 14, 2002
Posts
17,565
Likes
6,093
Location
South-West Gippsland
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Lexton, Northcote Park
Still slinging mud eh? How apish of you.
Not at all. Just pointing out your complete inability to provide any argument you might have entertained when you chose to embrace the things you have. If you can't do this, it logically follows that these decisions, which you obviously interpret as being among the most important in your life, are built on succumbing to mindless, arbitrary whims. Either that, or you are completely inarticulate about the things which most excite your passions.

You might gain some credit were you to make even a desultory attempt at doing so, rather than adopting the paranoid, misplaced defence that your very person is being attacked, rather than the belief system you've spent months dancing around. If we are to be expected to put up with this self-indulgent drivel, the least you could do would be to give us some idea why, because you think these beliefs so important, they cause you to become such a bore about them.
 

Monniehawk

Premiership Player
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Posts
3,491
Likes
603
Location
Mornington Peninsula
AFL Club
Geelong
Other Teams
Monbulk, Upwey, Strathmore
Which is why it is difficult to describe.
Look, I can go on and on about scriptural confirmation, historicity and whatever, but at the end of the day
by pursuing a belief system - which involves action as much as faith, I know I am a different person,
and other people who know me confirm that.
I have to respect this, because ultimately, it forms the framework of our personal equivocal belief systems and our understanding. We can will them to be true: be it evolution, Jesus, politics, philosophy or other goal, and thus, it makes us a "different person".
The perception becomes the reality. I think it, therefore I am it.
Religious belief is just as "delusional" as horoscopes, crystals, Big Bang or any other equivocation. There may be available evidence for and against, but (amongst a host of other things!) it depends on the weighting you apply - plus the balance between self-affirmation and true forensic examination.
I am an atheist; I believe in evolution but I cannot provide the irrevocable, absolute proof for either belief. I don't need to. However, the evidence I have gleaned is more than sufficient for me to hold firmly to those beliefs. No counter-argument has yet been convincing.
Because I cannot absolutely prove my beliefs does not make them invalid or wrong - just not provable to sceptics. Again, I don't need to! Still, my beliefs and understandings satisfy me and have made me a "different person".
They are my truths, yet they still remain open to question and further development.
Eventually, that could make me a "different person".
Do you see any parallels?
 

skilts

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Feb 14, 2002
Posts
17,565
Likes
6,093
Location
South-West Gippsland
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Lexton, Northcote Park
I'm sorry, I didn't think calling someone intellectually inferior because they think differently was NOT an attack.
On the inadequacy of the things you write, not upon your being. It seems that a large part of your problem is your inability to differentiate between people and ideas. I see that you're still incapable of articulating why you chose to embrace these fantasies.

At no stage have I ever referred to your intellect.
 

Kompany

Premiership Player
Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Posts
4,826
Likes
508
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
The real red devils
I honestly have no trouble in believing the supernatural. The difficult thing though, is it is not just experience for me,
it is a lot of study, research, questioning etc that makes it more real I guess.
So let me ask you again :). What about my alien abduction experience? Do you believe me? And why or why not?
 

hardon

Club Legend
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Posts
1,301
Likes
1,075
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Which is why it is difficult to describe.
Look, I can go on and on about scriptural confirmation, historicity and whatever, but at the end of the day
by pursuing a belief system - which involves action as much as faith, I know I am a different person,
and other people who know me confirm that.

spartanwa, i believe this is where you and many other religious people are confused.

the actions prescribed or inspired by your religion are clearly and easily separable from the faith. the flood, the burning bush, the angels, all of them are absolutely 100% not necessary, and are pretty certainly just pure myth. it's only the bullshit stories that need the faith.

the good deeds require no faith. there is no goodness or action that is unique to the religion. nobody of faith has one act of good in them that atheists do not have. religion has no monopoly over anything moral. nothing. it absolutely owns nothing. the fact that it worked for you is not evidence for the existence of a god.

your god could disappear tomorrow, but the book is still there and the words and messages are still there. can you tell me something you do now, something that makes you better, that is absolutely linked to the supernatural part? and if it is so linked, how exactly is it linked? why couldn't you just keep on being a better person, sans god?
 

Bennett.

Your training, Matrix
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Posts
22,122
Likes
17,541
Location
Perth
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Maple Leafs, Blue Jays
spartanwa, i believe this is where you and many other religious people are confused.

the actions prescribed or inspired by your religion are clearly and easily separable from the faith. the flood, the burning bush, the angels, all of them are absolutely 100% not necessary, and are pretty certainly just pure myth. it's only the bullshit stories that need the faith.

the good deeds require no faith. there is no goodness or action that is unique to the religion. nobody of faith has one act of good in them that atheists do not have. religion has no monopoly over anything moral. nothing. it absolutely owns nothing. the fact that it worked for you is not evidence for the existence of a god.

your god could disappear tomorrow, but the book is still there and the words and messages are still there. can you tell me something you do now, something that makes you better, that is absolutely linked to the supernatural part? and if it is so linked, how exactly is it linked? why couldn't you just keep on being a better person, sans god?

I really see where you are coming from and I guess I haven't explained myself well enough.
'Good deeds' per se do not make someone a christian of course. The action I suppose I am talking about is one that requires
me to be pro active in practising what I preach. If I call myself a follower, but my actions show me being selfish, then
I am doing myself and my beliefs a disservice and am not revealing how God may have changed me. Having said that, I find, personally,
that there is a tremendous freedom in living the life I do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom