Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

god or advanced entity?

  • god

    Votes: 14 40.0%
  • advanced entity

    Votes: 21 60.0%

  • Total voters
    35
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Sydney Bloods

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Yeah kinda do. Understand what y r getting at if you are in the belief that God should have made a creation without the possibility of rebellion. Double fist pump with the same thoughts of many but I am left with the distinct thought that it is not possible to have true relationship without choice, even if it may mean they say no.
What relationship? 90% of the planets population has never and will never have any relationship with a Christian God. At best you get a one-sided relationship with an absentee father who left some poorly worded instructions on the fridge the day before you were born with a post script note telling you not to **** up or else.

for a healthy relationship to exist both parties must work together, judging by the growth of many "New age" and alternative religions along with agnostic's and atheists. Obviously gods ability to engage in his relationship with man is failing pretty badly. Your proper relationship is a poor one. Ask yourself this, Would you ever consider putting a loved one through tests such as God has done?

Unless your sociopath the answer is no, the very foundation of a relationship is support and communication. Failing to provide such things causes relationship's to collapse.

Given that on a footy site we have a "God" thread, quite clearly people still seek a relationship with god at least some stage of their life, and seeing as many now question his existence quite clearly the blokes not doing enough reciprocating.

you suggest that calling out the stupidity in conducting an unethical experiment as suggesting an omnipotent being should make things perfect misses the point entirely. God KNOWS the outcome, always has always will. So the idea of a TEST does not stack, Why would you test something if you KNOW the outcome theres no need.

If as you say it is not a test (it brings into question a whole array of Christian theology) and is instead solely about a relationship, then once again God fails. God KNOWS how people think, wether they will believe in a God who's only influence upon man is through a collection of books that at best, suggests God is very likely schizophrenic and does nothing to actively engage these people or sway them.

This does not suggest a disposition for loving these people, it shows quite the contrary that God has no regard for human life at all. It shows God's only concern is himself, glory is for him only. So far as to punish and murder those that don't believe in him, despite full well knowing exactly what it would take to make believers of these people and thus avoid the necessity of firey death lakes. Knowing everything he knows and neglecting literally the entire planet, until a time he chooses shows a lack of empathy for his creation. God quite clearly has not given a **** about 90% of people who have existed or will exist.

Permitting people to starve to death shows a complete lack of any human decency, particularly when many of these people are his devoted servants. Wether things turn out ok after you die is completely irrelevant, you simply do not submit a person you care about to such a thing if you have the power to stop it.

Then there's the whole thing about what God actually wants, God does not want a relationship that is healthy. In fact even after Armageddon with everything's all rosy, we're told people will bow before God as if he were some feudal king.

God's "proper" relationship shows man as a willing submissive. With people bowing to and praising the bloke who's relationship has gone from acting with violent aggressive behaviour towards his creation for not doing exactly what they are told (despite supposedly having a "choice") to ignoring them, to offering a reprieve and back to violence and then finally commanding complete devotion or torture and death.

If you applied the psychological traits that "god" displayed throughout the bible to a person and had to decide if this person was fit to raise children 100% of people would recommend the children be placed in foster care.

As I said God as displayed in the bible cannot be omnipotent and loving.
 
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Cooldude

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As I said in another post, Free Will to coin a better phrase only works if you have two options. Lucifer wasn't created fallen, he chose to turn his back on his purpose in order to fulfil his own desire to be lifted up. There is no true relationship without the ability to choose.
That's flawed though, incredibly flawed. So by allowing this "free will" which means it allows for even angels to rebel when they see fit, humans to genocide and murder one another, innocent people and children killed, the wicked to triumph and the just to perish, all in the name of "having a true relationship". That's completely stupid, if God is as omnipotent, as all knowing and all powerful as has been said, then all those unjust things would've been intervened, since we're led to believe miracles happen

The fact that they aren't intervened with, then either puts into question either God's omnipotence, or God's love. How can one love the world so much and let those who don't deserve such treatment to have it done to them? And how can one so powerful not intervene and stop these things from happening? Either God isn't as loving as has been made out, or not quite as powerful. Either one completely destroys Christians' arguments

And whenever Christian tout out the relationship crap, I'm convinced they have no idea what this relationship is meant to be to begin with. They're just regurgitating cliches and slogans
 

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What relationship? 90% of the planets population has never and will never have any relationship with a Christian God.

At best you get a one-sided relationship with an absentee father who left some poorly worded instructions on the fridge the day before you were born with a post script note telling you not to **** up or else.

for a healthy relationship to exist both parties must work together, judging by the growth of many "New age" and alternative religions along with agnostic's and atheists. Obviously gods ability to engage in his relationship is failing pretty badly.

Your proper relationship is a poor one, ask yourself this. Would you ever consider putting a loved one truth tests such as God as done?

Unless your sociopath the answer is no, the very foundation of a relationship is support and communication. Failing to provide such things causes a relationship to collapse.

Given that on a footy site we have a "God" thread, quite clearly people still seek a relationship with god atleast some stage of their life, and seeing as many now question his existence quite clearly the blokes not doing enough reciprocating.

you suggest that calling out the stupidity in conducting an unethical experiment as suggesting an omnipotent being should make things perfect misses the point entirely.

God KNOWS the outcome, always has always will. So the idea of a TEST does not stack.

if as you say it is not a test (it brings into question a whole array of Christian theology) and is instead solely about a relationship, then once again God fails.

God KNOWS how people think, wether they will believe in a God who's only influence upon man is through a collection of books that at best, suggests God is very likely schizophrenic. And does nothing to actively engage these people or sway them.

This does not suggest a disposition for loving these people, it shows quite the contrary that God has no regard for human life at all. It shows God's only concern is himself, glory himself only. So far as to punish and murder those that don't believe in him, despite full well knowing exactly what it would take to make believers of these people.

Knowing everything he knows and neglecting literally the entire planet, until a time he choose shows a lack of empathy for his creation. God quite clearly has not given a **** about 90% of people who have existed or will exist.

Permitting people to starve to death shows a complete lack of any human decency, particularly when many of these people are his devoted servants. Wether things turn out ok after you die is completely irrelevant, you simply do not submit a person you care about to such a thing if you have the power to stop it.

Then there's the whole thing about what God actually wants, God does not want a relationship that even is healthy. Infact even after Armageddon with everything all rosey, where told people will bow before God as if he were some feudal king.

God's "proper" relationship shows man as a willing submissive. Bowing to and praising the bloke who's relationship has gone from violent aggressive behavior for not doing exactly what it is told (despite supposedly having a "choice") to ignoring them, to offering a reprieve and back to violence and then finally commanding complete devotion or torture and death.

If you applied the psychological traits that "god" displayed throughout the bible to a person and had to decide if this person was fit to raise children 100% of people would recommend the children be placed in foster care.

As I said God as displayed in the bible cannot be omnipotent and loving.
All good stuff and this probably doesn't really address your point about 90% of the population. But here's a bit if Catholic stuff that touches on the those who have never even heard of Christ etc

"on the presence and action of the Spirit in other religions and in the world. In fact, many Christians, and not only those in the Catholic Church, see God's hand at work in the religious life of followers of other religions and they believe that all humanity, and thus also the people who follow other religions, live under the action of the Spirit, which in these last days has been given to all humankind (cf. Gal 3,1-5; Acts 2,17-21). The Christian community lives in the firm belief that it is guided by the Spirit, but God's closeness to humankind, which is accomplished by the power of the Spirit, cannot be limited to the Christian community alone. The Spirit is free, and blows where it wills (Jn 3,8); wherever the Lord's Spirit is, there is freedom.

It's from the 2nd Vaticitian council and goes against a lot Christians who believe you need to be a believer.

"Sincere and full recognition of the Spirit's action in the world and among non-Christians, fully consistent with biblical facts, has come about in the Catholic Church above all thanks to the courageous declarations made by John Paul II"
 

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As I said in another post, Free Will to coin a better phrase only works if you have two options. Lucifer wasn't created fallen, he chose to turn his back on his purpose in order to fulfil his own desire to be lifted up. There is no true relationship without the ability to choose.
god must have been one insufferable jerk; satan got to actually meet god, in fricken heaven no less, and still chose to leg-it!!! and it didn't take him long because he was in the garden near the start of the bible, right?

god's glorious company in heaven, supposedly the perfect relationship, wasn't enough to keep an angel happy. well it's not perfect if you can turn away from it, yes?

the reason why the christian concept of 'free will' is so dead-brained is because no intelligent person could just 'will' themselves to truly believe something. even now i'm aware of the story of god and heaven and jesus, and the threat of an eternity without god, i cannot will myself to believe. if i don't believe the sky is pink i can't just will myself to actually believe it. so it's not because of free will that i reject the christian myths, it's a complete lack of any good evidence whatsoever. that's a failing of the camera-shy god who leaves fossils, radioactive elements and a gigantic useless universe lying around the place.

if honest investigation of the bible's claims fails to convince me of the christian god then explain to me where 'free will' fits in.
 

hardon

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As I said in another post, Free Will to coin a better phrase only works if you have two options. Lucifer wasn't created fallen, he chose to turn his back on his purpose in order to fulfil his own desire to be lifted up. There is no true relationship without the ability to choose.
please tell me, what is lacking in lucifer's life that would cause this desire to be 'lifted up'?

what doesn't god provide lucifer with that he needs while he's in heaven?

does god knowingly create people with a whole spectrum of mental differences at birth such that some will have the capacity to be convinced to believe and others not?

if we are created with equal capacity to believe then how do you account for our different beliefs?

if i read the bible and seek god and still come out atheist then is it still my fault if i find myself in hell?

i would appreciate it if you could directly address each question.
 

Sydney Bloods

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All good stuff and this probably doesn't really address your point about 90% of the population. But here's a bit if Catholic stuff that touches on the those who have never even heard of Christ etc

"on the presence and action of the Spirit in other religions and in the world. In fact, many Christians, and not only those in the Catholic Church, see God's hand at work in the religious life of followers of other religions and they believe that all humanity, and thus also the people who follow other religions, live under the action of the Spirit, which in these last days has been given to all humankind (cf. Gal 3,1-5; Acts 2,17-21). The Christian community lives in the firm belief that it is guided by the Spirit, but God's closeness to humankind, which is accomplished by the power of the Spirit, cannot be limited to the Christian community alone. The Spirit is free, and blows where it wills (Jn 3,8); wherever the Lord's Spirit is, there is freedom.

It's from the 2nd Vaticitian council and goes against a lot Christians who believe you need to be a believer.

"Sincere and full recognition of the Spirit's action in the world and among non-Christians, fully consistent with biblical facts, has come about in the Catholic Church above all thanks to the courageous declarations made by John Paul II"
thanks for pointing that out still doesn't quite address wether these people get to go heaven. only that the spirit is some how guiding them, I mean are they aware that even thinking about rooting another mans wife gets you the heavenly banhammer?
 

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God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions.
That's all free will is. Anyone who doubts and doesn't follow the Bible is just exercising that dignity.

The poor old Devil so the story goes new the truth but by his own free will rejected it. I still have trouble with that. I think it goes along the lines of the more that has been revealed to the individual then the more responsibility is on the individual to act accordingly.
 

Boston tiger

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thanks for pointing that out still doesn't quite address wether these people get to go heaven. only that the spirit is some how guiding them, I mean are they aware that even thinking about rooting another mans wife gets you the heavenly banhammer?
This is one standard Catholic answer
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation"

And don't worry about sin the Catholics have got purgatory.
She's all sorted
 

tesseract

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Every single sentence in that post is projection, it is amazing, do you have no self awareness?

You haven't' remembered how you somehow think Jesus didn't really care for the poor as such and the oppressed and the marginalized wasn't his priority at all? That you only try to help the poor only when the opportunity arises?

Despite the fact that Jesus said if those who don't do the things to the least of these, they didn't do to him, and they will suffering much and gnashing of the teeth and all that stuff? Despite the fact that Jesus told you people to not worry about tomorrow, sell all your possessions and give it to the poor? Despite the fact that Jesus told the rich guy apparently followed all the commandments who came to him how to get into the kingdom, and he told him to sell all his possessions and give to the poor? Despite the fact that he spent most his time reconciling the oppressed, the exiled, healing the sick, feeding the poor, etc?

But you denied all that, coz that wouldn't suit your own comfortable little world that you have crafted out in your head to suit your own selfish purposes. The narrowed and wrong interpretations you have of the bible that was designed to suit your own prejudice. And yet you're gonna accuse other people of not knowing anything about the bible and interpret it the way they feel like, HA

Btw, you seriously think people being allowed to reject other people from their business just because they think they are homosexuals/sinned is very Jesus like at all? Well exhibit B

Being a "student of the bible" means nothing, the Pharisees and scribes were teachers of the law, knew it inside out, studied it their whole lives, and Jesus went up to them and told them they knew nothing, they don't know God, and a bunch of Fishermen he plucked from obscurity would know more than them. So you arrogantly claim you have superior knowledge of the scriptures because you are "a student of the bible", yet every exchange I have with you shows how precious little you actually know about the text and how incredibly bias your own interpretation is. Yet you will accuse others of doing the exact same thing you're doing,, how is that not projection? So tell me, do you resemble Jesus more, or the people who killed Jesus? You sound more like a Pharisee to me

There are doctors with degrees who are terrible at their jobs, many people who are supposedly "trained' and "specialized" at something have been incredibly subpar at their jobs, I've seen Christians with theology degrees who somehow come out and say God hates gays and mass shooting masscres are because someone else were sinning, it's nothing other than self indulgent tripe to pump up your own tires when in fact they are flat and full of holes

Again, you haven't evidenced such projection, just claimed it. So, it's backed by nothing.

You point to what I've supposedly said, but offer no context and no point. Or was it that I said that Jesus' main goal on earth was about preaching his Father's kingdom and focusing on the peoples spiritual well-being, first and foremost? You mistakenly seem to believe that Jesus' main priority when on the earth was to help people in a physical way. Your view isn't biblical.

You say all these things about what Jesus said but again offer no context and haven't made a point. What was the point of posting this without making a point?

Show where I've denied these things you say about Jesus?
"Narrow and wrong" interpretations? Coming from someone trying to use the bible to rationalize the condoning of homosexuality. Hahahahahahaha!!! You're good for a chuckle at least.

Where is this supposed "exhibit B" that you speak of? Where have I stated that I think people being allowed to reject other people from their business just because they think they are homosexuals/sinned is very Jesus like?

Being a student of the bible means study of the bible is what I do. Of course that means nothing to you, for your biblical rationalizations display study of the bible isn't likely something you'd know much of.
Your logic as to the Pharisees is misapplied, as it's a catch-all device to be used on anyone with whom you disagree with, as well as having irrelevance to our discussion. Academics and scientists claiming to have knowledge of the big bang, who're considered authorities on the subject, can be dismissed, too, for what would they know. Jesus could tell them they were wrong; and under application of your logic, I could too. May as well not pay those academics and scientists any heed.
I didn't state to have "superior knowledge", arrogantly or otherwise, you inferred that. I claimed to be a student of the bible. That time spent studying has shown me how off-base you are concerning the bible. Unless you're a student of the bible and dedicate the years to it that I have, I think your inferred statement as to my superior knowledge likely rings true. I think you know parts of what the bible says, but the understanding of it alludes you. Is this why you don't offer up context when paraphrasing Jesus or the bible?
Your claims of "projection" are easily dismissed because your measure is your own subjective opinion. Your arrogance is on display by calling projection against me by thinking that your subjective opinion is the objective arbiter of such. It doesn't get any more arrogant than that.

Of course there are those who're trained and not very good at their job. I think it likely the case in most fields. The fact that you offer nothing but your opinion to back this assertion against me, though, is telling.
 

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Churches are organised groups of people and of course have more power to respond to issues as a collective and demonstrate their significance. However, Bill Gates is the biggest donor to charity in the world and he's not religious.
I think you will find the Gates family at a Church most Sundays..
 

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Again, you haven't evidenced such projection, just claimed it. So, it's backed by nothing.

You point to what I've supposedly said, but offer no context and no point. Or was it that I said that Jesus' main goal on earth was about preaching his Father's kingdom and focusing on the peoples spiritual well-being, first and foremost? You mistakenly seem to believe that Jesus' main priority when on the earth was to help people in a physical way. Your view isn't biblical.

You say all these things about what Jesus said but again offer no context and haven't made a point. What was the point of posting this without making a point?

Show where I've denied these things you say about Jesus?
"Narrow and wrong" interpretations? Coming from someone trying to use the bible to rationalize the condoning of homosexuality. Hahahahahahaha!!! You're good for a chuckle at least.

Where is this supposed "exhibit B" that you speak of? Where have I stated that I think people being allowed to reject other people from their business just because they think they are homosexuals/sinned is very Jesus like?

Being a student of the bible means study of the bible is what I do. Of course that means nothing to you, for your biblical rationalizations display study of the bible isn't likely something you'd know much of.
Your logic as to the Pharisees is misapplied, as it's a catch-all device to be used on anyone with whom you disagree with, as well as having irrelevance to our discussion. Academics and scientists claiming to have knowledge of the big bang, who're considered authorities on the subject, can be dismissed, too, for what would they know. Jesus could tell them they were wrong; and under application of your logic, I could too. May as well not pay those academics and scientists any heed.
I didn't state to have "superior knowledge", arrogantly or otherwise, you inferred that. I claimed to be a student of the bible. That time spent studying has shown me how off-base you are concerning the bible. Unless you're a student of the bible and dedicate the years to it that I have, I think your inferred statement as to my superior knowledge likely rings true. I think you know parts of what the bible says, but the understanding of it alludes you. Is this why you don't offer up context when paraphrasing Jesus or the bible?
Your claims of "projection" are easily dismissed because your measure is your own subjective opinion. Your arrogance is on display by calling projection against me by thinking that your subjective opinion is the objective arbiter of such. It doesn't get any more arrogant than that.

Of course there are those who're trained and not very good at their job. I think it likely the case in most fields. The fact that you offer nothing but your opinion to back this assertion against me, though, is telling.
I could pull out Big Foot right in front of your face and you'd still tell me there's no evidence it existing, I've been through this with you, I have tons and tons of scriptural evidence quoted but you can still tell me it isn't biblical, because it doesn't go with the "bible" in your own head, your own warped view of it to suit your own personal needs. You are like that kid who got caught in the act and still denies he's done anything wrong

You are the one who said Christians only need to help the poor when the opportunity arise

I've already agreed a number of times that helping the poor when an opportunity arises and it's within our means to do so is what Christians should do
When clearly Jesus says completely differently in the gospels, talking about if you don't do for the least of these you did not do for me, sell all you have to give to the poor, I'm not even gonna bother repeating the scriptural evidence I've put out to prove that, it's like the 10th time I have to do it to you, because you refuse to accept anything that doesn't suit your own agenda and delusions, and you just block your ears and shout how there's no evidence. You are as hypocritical and delusional as they come

When have I rationalized the condoning of homosexuality? You are completely delusional and crazy, when did you dream that up? You are definitely the one who is the best for a chuckle, it's like talking to a bat droppings insane schizophrenic in a mental asylum

You can study as much as you want, you can still know stuff all about it, and you clearly don't know much about the bible outside of what you want to see yourself with your own rose tinted glasses, and whatever suits your own selfish purposes. You are like that kid in high school who studies as hard as anyone but still has rubbish grades

Actually the pharisee reference is completely justified and everything you've said so far proves how MASSIVE a pharisee you are, boastful of your own "apparent knowledge" of the bible, when it has been proven again and again and again that it's abundantly clear you don't know anything about it at all other than your own selfish prejudicial interpretation. Yet you are gonna have a go at other people for not understand the bible and interpret it the way they want to. THAT is the projection, THAT is the hypocrisy, but you won't ever realise it, coz if crazy people realise they are crazy, then they wouldn't be crazy

Cue you're gonna waste your time ignoring the blatant evidence, ignoring blatant facts, ignoring blatantly sound arguments, and close your eyes, block your ears and go yell away at your overworded rubbish at how no one has provided any evidence, no one has provided any facts, I am not a hypocrite, I know the bible better than you, coz I just do, when it's clear that you don't. You live in a delusional alternate universe, my friend
 

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Umm no that is a complete load of rubbish, Satan's existence is what makes people question gods reign at a basic level.

If Satan did not exist then there would be no question between them.

Who is your father? You know your father he raised you, you've only ever known him as your father.
Who your father is, is not questionable.

But if another dude shows up claiming to be your father, that calls into question wether your father is actually your father.
If the other guy didn't exist it would never be questioned.

The comparison to "Satan" is very much the same. Rather then legitimise god's rule Satans very existence calls it into question.
Your notion's on "legitimacy" are more reflective with how monarchies used to claim "legitimacy" see: killing there opponent's.
Remember: war doesn't decide who is right only who is left.
The ability to kill another being doesn't prove your right it only silences your critics.

Fact is we're supposed to believe that an all knowing being created other beings knowing they would rebel and lead other beings to rebel and then twist and corrupt, the all knowing beings "greatest creation", all so at some stage down the track this all knowing being and murder (and murder is completely accurate all of this is pre meditated) the **** out everyone who rebelled or got corrupted.

And this is the real crux of the issue. If "God" is omnipotent then he is responsible for everything, there is no issue which he is ignorant of. By definition there cannot be, therefore there is no "test" God knows in advance who will pass and fail his "tests" even before creating them, even what Satan would do. Literally everything.
Now by any sane rationalisation this whole thing is an utterly cruel exercise and unnecessary exercise, if you know the results of your "test" a test which no less results in the slaughter of billions. Why would you go through with it?

We're left with two equally disturbing outcomes either "God"
is sadistic, by an measure of the word.
Or he's not actually sure of the outcome.

The first questions just how much he "loves" people
The second questions wether he's actually omnipotent at all.
Both outcomes question his relationship with people, fact is God cannot be a "loving" God and omnipotent, no one who truly loves someone would put a loved one truth such a test, particularly if they knew the outcome in advance.

How can you rightfully speak for "the people"? You can't, so why are you attempting this?

The bible says that Satan exists, so your opinion, when given to a Christian, of whether Satan exists or not is irrelevant.

The issue as to who is the Father isn't the issue here. As I've already pointed to, God's sovereignty - right to rule - has been challenged by Satan. So, the issue isn't a matter of who is the Father. You've missed the point.

Where has Satan made the claim to be the Almighty God - The Father - as in creator of all? It's certainly not biblical.

Satan's challenge to God's rulership has left the issue to be settled. I've previously pointed out how that's currently being settled.
You're correct when you say "Remember: war doesn't decide who is right only who is left. The ability to kill another being doesn't prove your right it only silences your critics". That's why God didn't destroy Satan instantly. The issue wouldn't have been settled. God's spirit son's were watching. If you, as a human, could reason that might doesn't make right, so, too, could God's spirit sons. Hence why God allowed a period of time to allow Satan to rule over the earth. God chose this method to make his point in answer to Satan's challenge.

God created spirit and human beings with free-will 0 the free-will to decide whether we wished to serve God out of love for him or not.
While having that free-will, God has also given fair warning to anyone not heeding his counsel.
Yes, death, misery and anguish abound for the present. These are things that God can and has promised to fix when he takes back the reigns. For now, though, the bigger issue of universal sovereignty is being sorted.

God is omnipotent. But have I not already said that God has given Satan a period of time to rule?
An example of God choosing not to know the outcome of certain events is displayed where God puts Abraham to the test. God tells Abraham to sacrifice Isaac up on an alter to prove whether Abraham, in his love for and obedience to God, would go as far as God is willing to go in Abraham's future by offering up the life of his own son, Jesus. What's the point of the test if God already knew? God can know of all, if he so chooses. God chooses not to know in certain instances in order to invalidate calls of predetermination, destiny, fate, etc.

The wickedness in this world is done on Satan's watch - during Satan's period of rulership. So what's occurring can't rightfully be attributed to God.
God, by means of the bible, has told of the outcome well ahead of time of what's to occur to Satan and the angels who followed in his rebellion, as well as humankind who do not obey God.

God loves people enough to offer eternal life for those that obey him and thus show their love for him, in a world free from Satan's influence as well as wicked people, where the righteous will be brought back to humankind's original perfect state. That speaks a lot as to God's love.
God loved humankind so much that he offered Jesus' sinless life as a sacrifice for humankind's sins and a chance at salvation. For this sacrifice, God would make Jesus a king in heaven - head of the kingdom - at a certain time in the future from the point of Jesus' sacrifice. The bible says that every knee will have to bend to Jesus.
God not knowing the outcome in certain circumstances has been demonstrated previously.
 

tesseract

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I could pull out Big Foot right in front of your face and you'd still tell me there's no evidence it existing, I've been through this with you, I have tons and tons of scriptural evidence quoted but you can still tell me it isn't biblical, because it doesn't go with the "bible" in your own head, your own warped view of it to suit your own personal needs. You are like that kid who got caught in the act and still denies he's done anything wrong

You are the one who said Christians only need to help the poor when the opportunity arise



When clearly Jesus says completely differently in the gospels, talking about if you don't do for the least of these you did not do for me, sell all you have to give to the poor, I'm not even gonna bother repeating the scriptural evidence I've put out to prove that, it's like the 10th time I have to do it to you, because you refuse to accept anything that doesn't suit your own agenda and delusions, and you just block your ears and shout how there's no evidence. You are as hypocritical and delusional as they come

When have I rationalized the condoning of homosexuality? You are completely delusional and crazy, when did you dream that up? You are definitely the one who is the best for a chuckle, it's like talking to a bat droppings insane schizophrenic in a mental asylum

You can study as much as you want, you can still know stuff all about it, and you clearly don't know much about the bible outside of what you want to see yourself with your own rose tinted glasses, and whatever suits your own selfish purposes. You are like that kid in high school who studies as hard as anyone but still has rubbish grades

Actually the pharisee reference is completely justified and everything you've said so far proves how MASSIVE a pharisee you are, boastful of your own "apparent knowledge" of the bible, when it has been proven again and again and again that it's abundantly clear you don't know anything about it at all other than your own selfish prejudicial interpretation. Yet you are gonna have a go at other people for not understand the bible and interpret it the way they want to. THAT is the projection, THAT is the hypocrisy, but you won't ever realise it, coz if crazy people realise they are crazy, then they wouldn't be crazy

Cue you're gonna waste your time ignoring the blatant evidence, ignoring blatant facts, ignoring blatantly sound arguments, and close your eyes, block your ears and go yell away at your overworded rubbish at how no one has provided any evidence, no one has provided any facts, I am not a hypocrite, I know the bible better than you, coz I just do, when it's clear that you don't. You live in a delusional alternate universe, my friend

"I could pull out Big Foot right in front of your face and you'd still tell me there's no evidence it existing" is seemingly your way of saying that I don't have this information. You have these scriptural quotes but without context. Just as you have linked the issue of Christians rejecting homosexuality with a lack hospitality, rather than it being immoral and thus against God's law.

Please quote the post where I said as you say I did regarding the poor. Context usually helps, as well as my posts here providing further context. Context is your arguments enemy. It's easy to snipe when you pick and choose, as you do with my posts, as well as the bible. No paraphrasing; a quote.



Did you not understand my last post to you regarding making a point and applying context? Why have you again paraphrased "When clearly Jesus says completely differently in the gospels, talking about if you don't do for the least of these you did not do for me, sell all you have to give to the poor" when you've failed to demonstrate that that's Jesus' priority during his time on earth? That's not making your case at all. Jesus wanted his disciples to sell their belongings and give the proceeds to the poor in order to not be held back by them, and to follow Jesus in ministering to the people regarding God's kingdom. This not needing material possessions was also symbolic in that when Jesus were to become king of the kingdom, his disciples would join him in heaven where material possessions are not needed. Thirdly, it served as showing faith in God to provide for them with regards to their physical needs, of which the bible points to their needs, despite lack possessions, having those needs taken care of by means of God's blessing.

You rationalized the issue homosexuality contradicting the bible's instruction of Christian hospitality with a list of scriptures in post #81 of "Ban the gays" law thread.

When my supposed knowing "stuff all about it" is measured only by your subjective say so, it just doesn't hold much water.

Again your arrogance is displayed when you deem that you and your subjective opinion is the arbiter of what's objective. You're becoming akin to Roboskilts in your ability to repeat yourself. Nearly every paragraph of yours has a variation of how deluded I am and how I know nothing. Roboskilts better look out, he has some competition.

Interesting use of "my friend". Is this how you treat all your friends? Who needs enemies with friends like you?
 

Sydney Bloods

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How can you rightfully speak for "the people"? You can't, so why are you attempting this?

The bible says that Satan exists, so your opinion, when given to a Christian, of whether Satan exists or not is irrelevant.

The issue as to who is the Father isn't the issue here. As I've already pointed to, God's sovereignty - right to rule - has been challenged by Satan. So, the issue isn't a matter of who is the Father. You've missed the point.

Where has Satan made the claim to be the Almighty God - The Father - as in creator of all? It's certainly not biblical.

Satan's challenge to God's rulership has left the issue to be settled. I've previously pointed out how that's currently being settled.
You're correct when you say "Remember: war doesn't decide who is right only who is left. The ability to kill another being doesn't prove your right it only silences your critics". That's why God didn't destroy Satan instantly. The issue wouldn't have been settled. God's spirit son's were watching. If you, as a human, could reason that might doesn't make right, so, too, could God's spirit sons. Hence why God allowed a period of time to allow Satan to rule over the earth. God chose this method to make his point in answer to Satan's challenge.

God created spirit and human beings with free-will 0 the free-will to decide whether we wished to serve God out of love for him or not.
While having that free-will, God has also given fair warning to anyone not heeding his counsel.
Yes, death, misery and anguish abound for the present. These are things that God can and has promised to fix when he takes back the reigns. For now, though, the bigger issue of universal sovereignty is being sorted.

God is omnipotent. But have I not already said that God has given Satan a period of time to rule?
An example of God choosing not to know the outcome of certain events is displayed where God puts Abraham to the test. God tells Abraham to sacrifice Isaac up on an alter to prove whether Abraham, in his love for and obedience to God, would go as far as God is willing to go in Abraham's future by offering up the life of his own son, Jesus. What's the point of the test if God already knew? God can know of all, if he so chooses. God chooses not to know in certain instances in order to invalidate calls of predetermination, destiny, fate, etc.

The wickedness in this world is done on Satan's watch - during Satan's period of rulership. So what's occurring can't rightfully be attributed to God.
God, by means of the bible, has told of the outcome well ahead of time of what's to occur to Satan and the angels who followed in his rebellion, as well as humankind who do not obey God.

God loves people enough to offer eternal life for those that obey him and thus show their love for him, in a world free from Satan's influence as well as wicked people, where the righteous will be brought back to humankind's original perfect state. That speaks a lot as to God's love.
God loved humankind so much that he offered Jesus' sinless life as a sacrifice for humankind's sins and a chance at salvation. For this sacrifice, God would make Jesus a king in heaven - head of the kingdom - at a certain time in the future from the point of Jesus' sacrifice. The bible says that every knee will have to bend to Jesus.
God not knowing the outcome in certain circumstances has been demonstrated previously.
Wow you really missed the analogy I was making, it's my mistake after all I did quote you. Although the earlier conversation I had in this regard with someone able to think for themselves was fun, so thanks for providing the ground work for robust discussion even if you lack the tools to completely understand the arguments against you.

But hey atleast you agree God cannot be loving and omnipotent, sorry a being cannot choose to be not omnipotent, by definition omnipotent is all knowing perhaps you should invent another word to describe your gods power because if there's so much as one thing that God is ignorant of by choice or other wise he can not be defined as omnipotent. you fall on the "his not all knowing all powerful side."
 
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tesseract

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Wow you really missed the analogy I was making, it's my mistake after all I did quote you. Although the earlier conversation I had in this regard with someone able to think for themselves was fun, so thanks for providing the ground work for robust discussion even if you lack the tools to completely understand the arguments against you.

But hey atleast you agree God cannot be loving and omnipotent, you fail on his not all knowing all powerful side.
If you don't explain what you mean by what you post and leave it open for interpretation, I can only take your words at face value. That's what I did.

You make a claim about me that you fail to back up. So, it's easily dismissed.
 

Sydney Bloods

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If you don't explain what you mean by what you post and leave it open for interpretation, I can only take your words at face value. That's what I did.

You make a claim about me that you fail to back up. So, it's easily dismissed.
"You make a claim," if you can't grasp the fact the argument was entirely about forethought and planning there's little I can do to explain things to you.

Its why I never became a teacher I get frustrated having to explain basic concepts.
 

tesseract

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"You make a claim," if you can't grasp the fact the argument was entirely about forethought and planning there's little I can do to explain things to you.

Its why I never became a teacher I get frustrated having to explain basic concepts.
With such a poorly thought through analogy, any student of yours would pass on your help. If this so-called analogy of yours is any indication, the lack of ability to teach supposed basic things is likely where your issues lie, as well as an indication as to your lack of pursuit down this path. You didn't/couldn't even explain or expand on such a messy analogy.
 

Cooldude

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Please quote the post where I said as you say I did regarding the poor.
Are you blind? That's exactly what I did, click the arrow to go and have a look, but that's exactly what you said, don't try to spin your way outta it


Did you not understand my last post to you regarding making a point and applying context? Why have you again paraphrased "When clearly Jesus says completely differently in the gospels, talking about if you don't do for the least of these you did not do for me, sell all you have to give to the poor" when you've failed to demonstrate that that's Jesus' priority during his time on earth? That's not making your case at all. Jesus wanted his disciples to sell their belongings and give the proceeds to the poor in order to not be held back by them, and to follow Jesus in ministering to the people regarding God's kingdom. This not needing material possessions was also symbolic in that when Jesus were to become king of the kingdom, his disciples would join him in heaven where material possessions are not needed. Thirdly, it served as showing faith in God to provide for them with regards to their physical needs, of which the bible points to their needs, despite lack possessions, having those needs taken care of by means of God's blessing.
Erm no, if you know your bible, it's not only his disciples that he told to sell all their possessions, Matthew 19 he tolds the rich guy who was described to be keeping all the commandments to sell everyone he had and give to the poor, which led to the verse about it being harder for rich people to enter the kingdom of heaven. In the Sermon on the mount he tells people to not worry about tomorrow, sell everything you have and give to the poor. In Matthew 25 the sheep and the goats, talks about those who didn't do the least of those they didn't do for him, and that those will receive eternal damnation.

It's absolutely everywhere in the gospels that states helping the poor and the oppress proactively is one of the key matters that Jesus has made during His time on earth, and that unless you do it, you don't get to enter the kingdom. Yet you will sit there and tell me, helping the poor isn't a priority for Jesus, you only need to help them when the opportunity arises and when it's within your means, when your Lord clearly tells you don't worry about your "means", just sell everything, he'll look after ya.

This warped version of the kingdom in your head that you've made to suit yourself, who am I to repeatedly quote evidence from the scriptures to show how wrong it is? Afterall I have seriously lost count at the amount of times I have to do it, just for you to completely ignore all of it and say "Oh you showed me no evidence", "oh you quote things outta context", everything that doesn't suit your agenda is out of text, any evidence however factual and however concrete that doesn't suit your own agenda aren't evidence. You have your head buried in the sand so deep that I don't think you'll ever get out. But you will sit there, accuse other people of wrongly interpreting the bible, not understanding it, and warping it to suit their own needs. When you are exhibit A of such behaviour, THAT is projection. But bloody hell I know you won't understand it, you will keep screaming I've shown you nothing, because you are that blind and deluded.

You rationalized the issue homosexuality contradicting the bible's instruction of Christian hospitality with a list of scriptures in post #81 of "Ban the gays" law thread.
Talk about out of context, how is that "rationalizing the issue of homosexuality" when you disagree with Christians being able to turn gays away because they are gay, because it's imbiblical? What part of the bible condones the marginalizing of those you don't like or have deemed to have sinned for that matter? Didn't Jesus dine with sinners tax collectors and such?

But apparently that is "rationalizing the condoning of homosexuality", you are absolutely out of your mind.

And since you know the bible so much, care to tell the world what you think about the law that allows gays to be turned away on religious grounds?

When my supposed knowing "stuff all about it" is measured only by your subjective say so, it just doesn't hold much water.

Again your arrogance is displayed when you deem that you and your subjective opinion is the arbiter of what's objective. You're becoming akin to Roboskilts in your ability to repeat yourself. Nearly every paragraph of yours has a variation of how deluded I am and how I know nothing. Roboskilts better look out, he has some competition.

Interesting use of "my friend". Is this how you treat all your friends? Who needs enemies with friends like you?
You have no idea what is objective and subjective, I quote objective evidence from the scriptures and you reckon that's subjective, because that doesn't suit you. You just make things up in your own head, and you reckon you are being objective. You are the epitomy of being delusional

Arrogance? THAT my friend is projection, here is a guy coming in claiming to be a student of the bible, therefore I must know more about it than all of you, so you all must be wrong and my interpretation is more true (Even though on examination that has proven to not be the case at all). And really? You having a go at others repeating themselves? My goodness me you are insane

It's a figure of speech, no need for a personal jab, which btw isn't a very Christian thing to do now is it? Who would've thought you aren't very Christian and know nothing about the gospels to begin with? Btw I treat my friends very very nicely thank you very much, I also treat fools accordingly. I value fair treatment
 

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With such a poorly thought through analogy, any student of yours would pass on your help. If this so-called analogy of yours is any indication, the lack of ability to teach supposed basic things is likely where your issues lie, as well as an indication as to your lack of pursuit down this path. You didn't/couldn't even explain or expand on such a messy analogy.
No seriously, Sydney Blood did a fine job, you are just rubbish at understanding stuff, or has no intention to understand it coz it doesn't suit your agenda, so you accuse someone else of not explaining well enough instead. It really is your problem
 

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With such a poorly thought through analogy, any student of yours would pass on your help. If this so-called analogy of yours is any indication, the lack of ability to teach supposed basic things is likely where your issues lie, as well as an indication as to your lack of pursuit down this path. You didn't/couldn't even explain or expand on such a messy analogy.
Funny thing is another poster could comprehend exactly where I was coming from.
 

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As I said in another post, Free Will to coin a better phrase only works if you have two options. Lucifer wasn't created fallen, he chose to turn his back on his purpose in order to fulfil his own desire to be lifted up. There is no true relationship without the ability to choose.
What destiny awaits one who forever denies God?

Unless it is equal to that of one who embraces God then there is no choice, none is offered and the wrong choice is eternal damnation...there is and can never be any relationship only obedience.
"free will" is the confabulation of mortals caught in a lie.
 

RobbieGray17

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For Christians who don't believe the literal version of Genesis, what do you make of Genesis.

If you don't believe in a young earth theory, what do you believe?

Each day was a super long period of time?

Or did god create the everything in an instant?

Do you believe the things in Genesis to be literal, or perhaps metaphorical?
 
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