Religion The God Question - part 2

[M Malice]

Excuse the delay, i am trying to watch the Sydney game too lol.

As a Gnostic "faith" isn't enough for me. Gnosis by definition is "knowledge through direct experience". I was a militant atheist once, no longer.

I cannot show you material proof of something that is by 'definition' not material. But there must be material proof to atheists of that which may not be matter as we know it? You can't use a pair of binoculars to show me an atom!

Guys like Dawkins tells you is that your basis of belief, which is deductive "logic" based on experience or observation through the five senses is the only rational and sane argument; whereas I side (partly through personal experience) with those esoteric practitioners who state that there are subtler energies and thus subtler senses (available through various techniques and action) that enable us to directly experience these realities. Meditation being one of the techniques but not the only technique.

Similarly, you may have a weird dream about Tom Rockliff flying a space-ship into your work and you him and Nick Krygios fly off to watch the Grand Final against a team of Darren Goldspinks. Dreams are about as weird as that sometimes, and you may wake up remembering it wondering WTF that was about.

Now I ask you, if you had that dream, then did you not have that experience?

Of course you did.

Now what if I now ask for proof that you had that exact experience? Where's your evidence of it?? Show me on a microscope!!

It's naive to think that everything can be verified by a scientist.

I have many times in the past though, explained the consistencies throughout religion. Some have focussed on the inconsistencies as a result, whilst others have attempted to shoot down the similarities as being information passed between primative tribes.

but one thing: Nobody else can have personal experience for you! That's what Gautama taught. That's what all Masters teach! Find out for yourself!! I cannot have the experience for you, you must walk your own path.

the techniques you require to attain that personal experience with the underlying life force / consciousness, are readily available to you today AND in meditation ' knowledge' appears in form of symbols, same symbols conveyed in religion but you must recognise them orelse you will not be able to interpret them. Take Jungs work, in Jung's work is archetypes in the collective unconscious.

These archetypes are about as simple as something like a swastika or a cross. They are also more obscure archetypes (these differ from Jung's list, but they are common archetypes) such as the trinity of the Father God, the Sun God and the Spirit (or Creator) God.

Your also almost never going to find a "son of God" story, without a miracle birth. And this isnt exclusive to spice routes or the middle east; it's global!

It's important to recognise, that whilst our ancestors were scientifically ignorant, they most certainly weren't spiritually ignorant. rather than relying upon scientists to spoon feed you their opinions of reality, it is you who can be the scientist and discover the true realities with which we live through that which we are all connected; consciousness.

That's weird you mentioning dreams, I have vivid unrealistic dreams virtually every night and quite regularly in the past I would dream and realize while dreaming that I am dreaming and was then able to control what I was doing in the dream consciously. I haven't had lucid dreams for many years now.

Note- I am also watching the game.

 

[Total Power]

That's weird you mentioning dreams, I have vivid unrealistic dreams virtually every night and quite regularly in the past I would dream and realize while dreaming that I am dreaming and was then able to control what I was doing in the dream consciously. I haven't had lucid dreams for many years now.

Note- I am also watching the game.

Same concept as 'meditation' but different level of consciousness to meditation. Nobody can 'interpret' anyone else's dream. Sometimes most people have similar desires and fears symbologically, but for the individual's life is far too complicated to determine why specific symbols arise.

Sustained control over one's dream, not just awareness of it, is indeed astral projection and this is one form of what consciousness researcher Robert Monroe called an 'out of body experience'.

 

[Boston tiger]

That's weird you mentioning dreams, I have vivid unrealistic dreams virtually every night and quite regularly in the past I would dream and realize while dreaming that I am dreaming and was then able to control what I was doing in the dream consciously. I haven't had lucid dreams for many years now.

Note- I am also watching the game.

You probably inherited a bit of that from your old man. Not talking spirituality just similar brains with the Astro travel ect

 

[Procrastinator35]

It's been asserted that trees communicate between their roots to those of the same genus,feeding and sharing resources to empower their clans,also attempting to eliminate other species that threaten them.
The communication is believed to be slow of course,is communication between life forms considered consciousness?
Is consciousness the first step to being considered for something attaining a "soul"?

Certain cultures also have tree worship....Animistic, pagan cultures are pretty much all pantheistic in nature, as they see life & spirit imbued in everything around them....Especially trees, but also even rocks.....The old 'Things of stone & wood'.

The Celts worshiped certain trees as sacred, particularly the Oak, which was even ordained it's own Goddess, Daron.... Even the old Celtic priest word 'Druid' is reckoned to derive it's etymology from the Oak tree.....Trees also provided safety as cover, shelter, wood for fire & building, medicinal properties found in their bark, branches, roots & leaves.....Groves provided for sacred sites, rituals & initiation......Of course, many trees also provide food in the form of fruit & help to attract animals.....But mostly, they are seen as the abode of nature spirits & Gods.

The fact that trees also provide us the oxygen essential for our very survival itself, lends a certain scientific credence as to why they are so deified in ancient cultures.....Perhaps they had wisdom that we now lack after all.

The place & importance of trees in mythology is rather extensive......No tree, no Me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trees_in_mythology

 

[Total Power]

Certain cultures also have tree worship....Animistic, pagan cultures are pretty much all pantheistic in nature, as they see life & spirit imbued in everything around them....Especially trees, but also even rocks.....The old 'Things of stone & wood'.

The Celts worshiped certain trees as sacred, particularly the Oak, which was even ordained it's own Goddess, Daron.... Even the old Celtic priest word 'Druid' is reckoned to derive it's etymology from the Oak tree.....Trees also provided safety as cover, shelter, wood for fire & building, medicinal properties found in their bark, branches, roots & leaves.....Groves provided for sacred sites, rituals & initiation......Of course, many trees also provide food in the form of fruit & help to attract animals.....But mostly, they are seen as the abode of nature spirits & Gods.

The fact that trees also provide us the oxygen essential for our very survival itself, lends a certain scientific credence as to why they are so deified in ancient cultures.....Perhaps they had wisdom that we now lack after all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trees_in_mythology

Ahh the good old tree of life , the centre of all kabbalistic and gnostic teachings

 

[M Malice]

Ahh, I like this civilized discussion re consciousness, and there has been no need to mention the church or institutionalized religion.

It still doesn't answer the question though ie. what happens when we die? Is all this consciousness/meditation/soul just an internal function of a highly evolved brain and when we die it ceases to exist just like our flesh and blood body?

Do we reincarnate? I guess I'll find out in the not to distant future, although if there is nothing I wont exist to know.

 

[chelseacarlton]

You didn't answer me question ol' mate!
Is the ability to be able to communicate between individuals in a group something akin to consciousness?
Considering they have also been observed looking after those in the group and even nurturing their young.
Trees ffs,their is much we take for granted in the physical world,why bother with allure of the role of a supernatural supervisor?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

That's weird you mentioning dreams, I have vivid unrealistic dreams virtually every night and quite regularly in the past I would dream and realize while dreaming that I am dreaming and was then able to control what I was doing in the dream consciously. I haven't had lucid dreams for many years now.

This is because you are one of the fabled Dream Warriors as prophesised in song by the priests of Dokken many years ago. I shall not link to the prophecy itself as it actually sounds s**t and lame but on some kind of video-watching thing you may find it and discover for yourself your destiny.

 

[Total Power]

Ahh, I like this civilized discussion re consciousness, and there has been no need to mention the church or institutionalized religion.

It still doesn't answer the question though ie. what happen

It's the main problem with trying to express the formless with forms (words, analogies, metaphors).

As I have cited before, Ain (Hebrew) / Sat (Sanskrit) refers to the primordial Absolute, or Emptiness.

Just as "you" barely have an atom in your body that "you" had when you were 5, itss clearly not the physical 'suit' that you need to comprehend; but rather your being, or essence.

Every form that exists in the physical drama exists to help you self-realise this essence. Sometimes the forms can have the inverse effect (see my comments on The Trickster archetypes in Lucifer / Loki, Buddhas Mara).

'God' is a term I like for convenience. It is for all intents and purposes describes the essence of all essences. The being of all beings.

The best explanation I have found comes from The Secret Doctrine:

Space is neither a “limitless void,” nor a “conditioned fullness,” but both: being, on the plane of absolute abstraction, the ever-incognizable Deity, which is void only to finite minds, and on that of mayavic perception, the Plenum, the absolute Container of all that is, whether manifested or unmanifest: it is, therefore, that ABSOLUTE ALL.”

This is why i have an objection over all organised religions. God is not a "thing" or an "entity" we should fear. The true nature of us (minus our ego), is also god.

 

[Total Power]

Btw jason pm what are your thoughts on reincarnation etc?

 

[M Malice]

Btw jason pm what are your thoughts on reincarnation etc?

I would love it to be true(who wants to die and not exist anymore?) but I can't bring myself to have that sort of "faith" in an unproven proposition. I have this foreboding feeling that all this contemplation and spiritual stuff will just be natural brain activity that we as yet do not understand, some sort of survival/fear of death complex.

If as you believe we have a soul I would say a natural extension of that would be reincarnation into some form or another though. Again I hope you are right and I am dead wrong.

 

[Total Power]

I would love it to be true(who wants to die and not exist anymore?) but I can't bring myself to have that sort of "faith" in an unproven proposition. I have this foreboding feeling that all this contemplation and spiritual stuff will just be natural brain activity that we as yet do not understand, some sort of survival/fear of death complex.

If as you believe we have a soul I would say a natural extension of that would be reincarnation into some form or another though. Again I hope you are right and I am dead wrong.

I understand your concerns and its absolutely fair to be skeptical. I was for a long long time.

To understand karma you must understand the law of Pendulum. Karma is represented in the Bible in the forbidden fruit metaphor in Genesis. Your self-interested actions (desires) leads to your suffering. No ifs, no buts!

Its also in there as "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.", with the extension of this being that you don't have a choice. "They" will do to you what you do to "them"! acting in self-interest can have its upside. What you steal, for example, might give you pleasure for a while. Of course every self interested act you do affects someone else and as such, you will be subject to a similar fate, or alternatively you can make it up to them with .we remain trapped in the impermanence of the Universe/Samsara, and until we annihalate our Karma (ego), we are subject to the usual forces of nature. Birth and rebirth and recycling happen all the time in nature. As we are a part of that system, we are part of the same cycle.

Lets make it easy and Ill straight up say that I'm Buddhist (not because its the best religion, there is no "best" religion). It's my personal favourite religion, because it cuts out most of the possibility for misinterpretation (although it happens).

but as i understand you are looking for "evidences" as a scientist would. become your own scientist. Millions of people have experienced what i am telling you. Can only document by re-telling the experience. Masters to not even need to die to travese these areas of consciousness described by NDE experiencers.

start by reading the countless thousands of Near Death Experiences. Perhaps the Egyptian or Tibettan Book of the Dead might also give you helping hand.
people whve had Near Death Experiences know their experiences were real too. In fact sc ientists don't dispute that they happen. You ask for proof, go and read the near death sites. Read all of their accounts like I have. Stop looking for differences and start seeing the synergies.Practicers of meditation also experience similar conditions to Near Death Experiencers. Past life regression hypnosis yields similar traits to both NDEs and profound meditation.

so why is it that altered states of consciousness always projects the "same" way? atheist/theist/agnostic alike? If all this is a hallucination, then why do we have the same hallucination? are we programmed to see/experience what we see/experience? Scientific or otherwise. Right now, the only people who are smug, are those "scientists" (incorrect word for biased research) who assume that the brain is the creator of consciousness even before they begin, and then have the nerve to belittle people for thinking otherwise. Fundamentalism at its worst! So then a scientist can explain how a jelly fish reacts of its environment without a brain or a central nervous system? are they conscious? they need to feed, hold their cells together and procreate. This is consciousness, no matter how inferior an experience it is relative to us. how does a single cell organism knows how to self replicate without a brain? are they conscious? so if consciousness can exist independent of the brain, why can't it apply to other organisms then?

But let me just demonstrate how symbolisms work in religion, once you remove your ego, you can see how everything is connected. This is not a matter of "my religion is greater than yours".

Here is me quoting the bible (ofcourse i not seeking catholic church's approval here), this is just my 2 cents worth:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Interpretation: So there is Jesus "The Christ" and "The Father". They are clearly two diffferent states/beings (although he is saying that they are connected).

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Interpretation: He is talking about his innermost God. Known as enlightenment in Buddhism.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Interpretation: Talking about "the works", which are spiritual, that we must do in order to connect to our innermost Father, or attain Enlightenment.

The above are just examples, this goes way beyond these 3 verses but i am just here to show you how the Gnostic interpretation of the Bible is and the reason why spiritual practices were killed off by the Church was simple: the fear of losing control over masses. Same reason why Buddhism failed to gain ground in India despite being born in India, self-realisation. "Authority" don't like it. Telling people what to think works way better for them.

You are welcome to believe in the Catholic interpretation, i am not here to argue my dick is bigger than others, although disagree with them.

 

[M Malice]

I understand your concerns and its absolutely fair to be skeptical. I was for a long long time.

To understand karma you must understand the law of Pendulum. Karma is represented in the Bible in the forbidden fruit metaphor in Genesis. Your self-interested actions (desires) leads to your suffering. No ifs, no buts!

Its also in there as "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.", with the extension of this being that you don't have a choice. "They" will do to you what you do to "them"! acting in self-interest can have its upside. What you steal, for example, might give you pleasure for a while. Of course every self interested act you do affects someone else and as such, you will be subject to a similar fate, or alternatively you can make it up to them with .we remain trapped in the impermanence of the Universe/Samsara, and until we annihalate our Karma (ego), we are subject to the usual forces of nature. Birth and rebirth and recycling happen all the time in nature. As we are a part of that system, we are part of the same cycle.

Lets make it easy and Ill straight up say that I'm Buddhist (not because its the best religion, there is no "best" religion). It's my personal favourite religion, because it cuts out most of the possibility for misinterpretation (although it happens).

but as i understand you are looking for "evidences" as a scientist would. become your own scientist. Millions of people have experienced what i am telling you. Can only document by re-telling the experience. Masters to not even need to die to travese these areas of consciousness described by NDE experiencers.

start by reading the countless thousands of Near Death Experiences. Perhaps the Egyptian or Tibettan Book of the Dead might also give you helping hand.
people whve had Near Death Experiences know their experiences were real too. In fact sc ientists don't dispute that they happen. You ask for proof, go and read the near death sites. Read all of their accounts like I have. Stop looking for differences and start seeing the synergies.Practicers of meditation also experience similar conditions to Near Death Experiencers. Past life regression hypnosis yields similar traits to both NDEs and profound meditation.

so why is it that altered states of consciousness always projects the "same" way? atheist/theist/agnostic alike? If all this is a hallucination, then why do we have the same hallucination? are we programmed to see/experience what we see/experience? Scientific or otherwise. Right now, the only people who are smug, are those "scientists" (incorrect word for biased research) who assume that the brain is the creator of consciousness even before they begin, and then have the nerve to belittle people for thinking otherwise. Fundamentalism at its worst! So then a scientist can explain how a jelly fish reacts of its environment without a brain or a central nervous system? are they conscious? they need to feed, hold their cells together and procreate. This is consciousness, no matter how inferior an experience it is relative to us. how does a single cell organism knows how to self replicate without a brain? are they conscious? so if consciousness can exist independent of the brain, why can't it apply to other organisms then?

But let me just demonstrate how symbolisms work in religion, once you remove your ego, you can see how everything is connected. This is not a matter of "my religion is greater than yours".

Here is me quoting the bible (ofcourse i not seeking catholic church's approval here), this is just my 2 cents worth:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Interpretation: So there is Jesus "The Christ" and "The Father". They are clearly two diffferent states/beings (although he is saying that they are connected).

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Interpretation: He is talking about his innermost God. Known as enlightenment in Buddhism.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Interpretation: Talking about "the works", which are spiritual, that we must do in order to connect to our innermost Father, or attain Enlightenment.

The above are just examples, this goes way beyond these 3 verses but i am just here to show you how the Gnostic interpretation of the Bible is and the reason why spiritual practices were killed off by the Church was simple: the fear of losing control over masses. Same reason why Buddhism failed to gain ground in India, self-realisation means no central authority.

You are welcome to believe in the Catholic interpretation, i am not here to argue my dick is bigger than others, although disagree with them.

Thanks TP. I have read books on NDE's, enlightenment etc. eg. most of Lobsang Rampa's books, (they were my fathers books, he wanted me to have them when he passed) although not for over 25 years, I might have to go back and have another read. I have made numerous attempts at OOB experiences (many years ago) and have had some strange and one notable experience as a result which I eventually passed off as brain activity. I also indulged once in a mind altering substance ie, DMT, which was only a few years ago on the advice of a loved one.

Thanks again TP, I love reading your thoughts on all things spiritual.

 

[Total Power]

Thanks TP. I have read books on NDE's, enlightenment etc. eg. most of Lobsang Rampa's books, (they were my fathers books, he wanted me to have them when he passed) although not for over 25 years, I might have to go back and have another read. I have made numerous attempts at OOB experiences (many years ago) and have had some strange and one notable experience as a result which I eventually passed off as brain activity. I also indulged once in a mind altering substance ie, DMT, which was only a few years ago on the advice of a loved one.

Thanks again TP, I love reading your thoughts on all things spiritual.

The thing is , don't force yourself to have an OOB experience. It's not something you should out of a "hobby". You must train your mind and body first. When i first started meditating, i couldn't sit at the same place for 2 minutes. Sometimes i would even fall asleep. Sometimes my feet will itch, i feel thirsty, hungry etc. Natural distractions as the ego will not let go of itself so easily. I never had a NDE but i related my meditational experiences to that of an NDEer. Again, kinda confirms my original hunch if anything, so I kept on reading and stumbled upon near death experiences and such studies as Dying To Live by Susan Blackmore (an atheists handbook). Still, I balanced it out and kept an open mind, as I figured it would be a the best area to discover if consciousness existed outside of neurological activity.

 

[skilts]

It's been asserted that trees communicate between their roots to those of the same genus,

When I was young, I used to do this. Then I took up smoking.

 

[chelseacarlton]

When I was young, I used to do this. Then I took up smoking.

Ya big lug!

 

[NeutralZone]

Atheism is simply the rejection of the idea that there is a god that created everything. It is a lack of a belief in not only your god, but every other god that has ever been dreamed-up.

I repeat: it is the rejection of your idea that there is a god. And this is based on all of the available evidence, common sense and critical thinking.

Judd2Sewell:

Why are you telling me what I already told chelseacarlton at Post #3883, namely, that atheism is non-belief in a God or gods? Here is the weblink to where I stated exactly that. https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-god-question-part-2.1141145/page-156#post-51001190

Defining "atheism" for someone like me who already knows the definition is supposed to prove what?


NeutralZone

 

[NeutralZone]

Atheism is simply the rejection of the idea that there is a god that created everything. It is a lack of a belief in not only your god, but every other god that has ever been dreamed-up.

I repeat: it is the rejection of your idea that there is a god. And this is based on all of the available evidence, common sense and critical thinking.

Judd2Sewell:

You have evidence that there is no God?

You went so far as to state "all of the available evidence" indicates there is no god. Then you should have no problem presenting at least some of that evidence--from amongst "all of the available evidence"--that there is no God.

We are all waiting.


NeutralZone

 

[Total Power]

Ya big lug!

sheesh, richmond last week and Crowbots this week, my 2 pet hates.. thanks carlton lol

 

[chelseacarlton]

sheesh, richmond last week and Crowbots this week, my 2 pet hates.. thanks carlton lol

* you TP
* you god
* you creator and controlling guy of the free will thingamajig
You suck balls

 

[Procrastinator35]

When I was young, I used to do this. Then I took up smoking.

Trust you to Freud it up with your tales of fornication.

**** you TP
**** you god
**** you creator and controlling guy of the free will thingamajig
You suck balls

I see non-believers are into flagellation also.

 

[Long Live HFC]

Btw jason pm what are your thoughts on reincarnation etc?

I understand your concerns and its absolutely fair to be skeptical. I was for a long long time.

you believe in reincarnation?

 

[chelseacarlton]

Trust you to Freud it up with your tales of fornication.



I see non-believers are into flagellation also.

Freud was a mummy's boy

 

[skilts]

Trust you to Freud it up with your tales of fornication.



I see non-believers are into flagellation also.

I'm pleased to know that, at last, you trust me.

I'll flagellator.

Edit: Did you hear the one about the woman who walked into a bar? She strolled up to the barman and said,

"I'll have a double entendre."

So he gave her one.

 

[chelseacarlton]

I'm pleased to know that, at last, you trust me.

I'll flagellator.

Edit: Did you hear the one about the woman who walked into a bar? She strolled up to the barman and said,

"I'll have a double entendre."

So he gave her one.

God of gaps?