Religion The God Question - part 2

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IM NOT SAYING I HAVE IT RIGHT.

what is wrong with you people?

Ive said many times that its a very complex book. And that we still cant fully understand it. Im being the opposite of arrogant. I started off trying to help someone by explaining that the bible is fluid. and ive been attacked since.
If the bible was easy to understand, it wouldnt be the word of god, it would just be a book.
I am not the authority on the bible. I just tried to explain my take on it, and how i understand it.
Pointing out that just calling it bullshit because you dont understand it is actually bullshit.

The same as me saying evolution is bullshit because i dont understand it is bullshit.
The Bible isn't even the word of God with regards to the New Testament. It was written decades after Jesus' death. It's a bunch of convoluted anecdotes. I understand what it is perfectly well. There's no evidence for anything in it being true, whether that be Genesis or the succeeding Book of Revelation, gospels, apistles et al.

I'll take your word for it that you're not trying to be arrogant. But can't you see that there's a problem when you and every otuer religious person has faith in something they themselves admit to not fully understanding? You've accused me of trying to make you question your faith when all I've done is merely questioned you about the scripture within your faith.

If, for a fleeting moment, you've felt unrest within yourself that the words that I or any of the other good folk in this thread have posed make you feel as though you should question your faith, I urge you to explore all avenues of doubt. Don't lie to yourself, if something doesn't stack up you are allowed to question it and draw your own conclusions independent of some book which fear mongers.
 

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jason pm

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Can you explain how evolution fits within a Biblical context?
Well the only evidence of change within an organism and so hence evolution fitting within the context of the Bible would be the fact that snakes use to have vocal chords similar to ours and could talk the same language but as science has shown snakes no longer have vocal chords. Hence we have Biblical proof of evolution. Some talking snakes obviously saw it as an advantage to keep their mouths shut and those that continued to open their traps and put their two bobs worth were obviously easy to locate and knock on the head. The keep quiet snakes were harder to locate and so passed on their silent gene to the next generation (evolution)as the few thousand years passed the snakes lost their vocal chords and all they say now is shhhh.
So in fact the Bible came up with evolution thousands of years before Darwin.

This theory works fine in a literalistic sense in that we need a ridgy didgy taking snake and I know you have done a lot of Internet research on how the Bible should be read. So should suit.
 

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Well the only evidence of change within an organism and so hence evolution fitting within the context of the Bible would be the fact that snakes use to have vocal chords similar to ours and could talk the same language but as science has shown snakes no longer have vocal chords. Hence we have Biblical proof of evolution. Some talking snakes obviously saw it as an advantage to keep their mouths shut and those that continued to open their traps and put their two bobs worth were obviously easy to locate and knock on the head. The keep quiet snakes were harder to locate and so passed on their silent gene to the next generation (evolution)as the few thousand years passed the snakes lost their vocal chords and all they say now is shhhh.
So in fact the Bible came up with evolution thousands of years before Darwin.

This theory works fine in a literalistic sense in that we need a ridgy didgy taking snake and I know you have done a lot of Internet research on how the Bible should be read. So should suit.
LOL! well that made me laugh, thanks
 
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The Bible isn't even the word of God with regards to the New Testament. It was written decades after Jesus' death. It's a bunch of convoluted anecdotes. I understand what it is perfectly well. There's no evidence for anything in it being true, whether that be Genesis or the succeeding Book of Revelation, gospels, apistles et al.

I'll take your word for it that you're not trying to be arrogant. But can't you see that there's a problem when you and every otuer religious person has faith in something they themselves admit to not fully understanding? You've accused me of trying to make you question your faith when all I've done is merely questioned you about the scripture within your faith.

If, for a fleeting moment, you've felt unrest within yourself that the words that I or any of the other good folk in this thread have posed make you feel as though you should question your faith, I urge you to explore all avenues of doubt. Don't lie to yourself, if something doesn't stack up you are allowed to question it and draw your own conclusions independent of some book which fear mongers.
None of the testaments were written by jeebuz or god
 
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Well the only evidence of change within an organism and so hence evolution fitting within the context of the Bible would be the fact that snakes use to have vocal chords similar to ours and could talk the same language but as science has shown snakes no longer have vocal chords. Hence we have Biblical proof of evolution. Some talking snakes obviously saw it as an advantage to keep their mouths shut and those that continued to open their traps and put their two bobs worth were obviously easy to locate and knock on the head. The keep quiet snakes were harder to locate and so passed on their silent gene to the next generation (evolution)as the few thousand years passed the snakes lost their vocal chords and all they say now is shhhh.
So in fact the Bible came up with evolution thousands of years before Darwin.

This theory works fine in a literalistic sense in that we need a ridgy didgy taking snake and I know you have done a lot of Internet research on how the Bible should be read. So should suit.
Except for the Irish snakes. They were the stupid ones that didn't shut up. The patron saint of Ireland had to do something about them. So he drove them out to sea. Correct?
 
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Thank you for the very reasonable response. Am I to assume you're a man of faith and not someone who just happens to have a Bible (or Google) handy?

I will be very brief - and this is not to do a disservice to your response but rather my lack of time - by asking why God would require to set the earth upon pillars if he has already suspended it?

Yes, I know it's literal/metaphorical nitpicking to some, but it's actually very important in the context of the Bible's legitimacy in my eyes. I am a man of logic and the Bible is illogical.

I will make it very clear that my intention wasn't to see the Bible as incorrect before it was my intention to see it as correct. I beleived as a youngster, but could not believe when I grew up.

Just like I see trust as not a choice, it's a continual development. I couldn't trust the legitimacy of the Bible as nothing stacked up in my eyes. I did want to believe until I was about 12.
Yes I am, but I'm not afraid to use google as well. By that I mean I would use it if I remember reading something but can't remember exactly where I ready it, or if I'm not sure on something, I'm happy to see what other people have discovered in that area... BUT I don't just parrot what I read on google, cause like anything you have to filter out what you think is legit and what you think isn't.

I think you are asking the 64 million dollar question haha, what to take literally and what is metaphorical. To be honest I don't think anyone can give you a 100% breakdown of what needs to be interpreted where, but maybe you could approach it by trying to read it plainly. Literal history is literal history, metaphors are metaphors, poetry is poetry, laws are laws etc.

I think the pillars you are talking about aren't literal pillars. What sort of pillars it is talking about I'm not certain, but it could be a poetic metaphor talking about the construction of the earth, it could be physical laws, spiritual laws (you sow what you reap etc)

You're right that it can be contradictory, and without believing in it I think it would be very difficult to reach a logical appreciation for what it says.

In the end I think it comes down to faith. If you believe in (have faith in/trust) the bible, you may not understand exactly what it means in every aspect, but you will choose to believe that it is somehow good for you to take seriously, and begin a process of discovering how to apply it to your life. In that way I see trust/faith as a choice of continual development.

I don't know if that makes much sense but I hope (<- Literal) (Metaphor ->) that clears things up for you ;)
 

chelseacarlton

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Guys what I really want to know is if God had a name, what would it be and would you call it to his face, if you were faced with him in all his glory, what would you ask if you had just one question?
Bone cancer dude,really?
You're a ****head,now prepare to meet "your" maker!
 

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chelseacarlton

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Yes I am, but I'm not afraid to use google as well. By that I mean I would use it if I remember reading something but can't remember exactly where I ready it, or if I'm not sure on something, I'm happy to see what other people have discovered in that area... BUT I don't just parrot what I read on google, cause like anything you have to filter out what you think is legit and what you think isn't.

I think you are asking the 64 million dollar question haha, what to take literally and what is metaphorical. To be honest I don't think anyone can give you a 100% breakdown of what needs to be interpreted where, but maybe you could approach it by trying to read it plainly. Literal history is literal history, metaphors are metaphors, poetry is poetry, laws are laws etc.

I think the pillars you are talking about aren't literal pillars. What sort of pillars it is talking about I'm not certain, but it could be a poetic metaphor talking about the construction of the earth, it could be physical laws, spiritual laws (you sow what you reap etc)

You're right that it can be contradictory, and without believing in it I think it would be very difficult to reach a logical appreciation for what it says.

In the end I think it comes down to faith. If you believe in (have faith in/trust) the bible, you may not understand exactly what it means in every aspect, but you will choose to believe that it is somehow good for you to take seriously, and begin a process of discovering how to apply it to your life. In that way I see trust/faith as a choice of continual development.

I don't know if that makes much sense but I hope (<- Literal) (Metaphor ->) that clears things up for you ;)
So many words to literally say "I've got no ******* idea".
 

chelseacarlton

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If that's what you got out of my post then fair enough haha
I tried,I really did,but that's all I found in it!
I did religious studies for four years at school.
We studied pretty much every religion,spiritual practice,cults etc. and in a fair amount of detail.
I didn't find anything in the abrahamic disciplines that complex,regardless of its literal identity or context.
There is some reasonable poetry and English Lit would owe a massive debt of gratitude to it,but to imagine that we wouldnt still have the 18th centuries wonders of Literature isnt too difficult a concept to grasp.
Humans are bloody good at doing things without rule books or inspiration,we generally get off our arses and do cool shit without some ****** looking over our shoulders making a campaigner of themselves.
Know whaddimean guv?;)
 
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Yes I am, but I'm not afraid to use google as well. By that I mean I would use it if I remember reading something but can't remember exactly where I ready it, or if I'm not sure on something, I'm happy to see what other people have discovered in that area... BUT I don't just parrot what I read on google, cause like anything you have to filter out what you think is legit and what you think isn't.

I think you are asking the 64 million dollar question haha, what to take literally and what is metaphorical. To be honest I don't think anyone can give you a 100% breakdown of what needs to be interpreted where, but maybe you could approach it by trying to read it plainly. Literal history is literal history, metaphors are metaphors, poetry is poetry, laws are laws etc.

I think the pillars you are talking about aren't literal pillars. What sort of pillars it is talking about I'm not certain, but it could be a poetic metaphor talking about the construction of the earth, it could be physical laws, spiritual laws (you sow what you reap etc)

You're right that it can be contradictory, and without believing in it I think it would be very difficult to reach a logical appreciation for what it says.

In the end I think it comes down to faith. If you believe in (have faith in/trust) the bible, you may not understand exactly what it means in every aspect, but you will choose to believe that it is somehow good for you to take seriously, and begin a process of discovering how to apply it to your life. In that way I see trust/faith as a choice of continual development.

I don't know if that makes much sense but I hope (<- Literal) (Metaphor ->) that clears things up for you ;)
Unlike the other respondents in this thread, I find you hard not to like. Despite your beliefs you seem decent and genuine; even understanding of the fact that the lack of evidence is, in the case of an atheist, the most damning part about religion.

You've got to understand that I'm not someone who merely hates religion just because. I wasn't brought up to hate religion - I had a Catholic education and my grandparents were extremely devout Catholics. My parents never went to Church, but my Mum still believes. I cannot have a theological discussion with her as she gets upset and finds my views very uncomfortable.

At the end of the day I'm a no bullshit kind of guy. I have no time or tolerance for excuses or crap that doesn't add up. In Primary school we did an exercise which always stuck with me - Chinese Whispers. That alone demonstrated just how easy messages were mixed up between 20 kids in the same room at the same time. Believing in a book filled with anecdotes written 2,000 years ago? You've got to be kidding me!

Putting everything we've discussed aside, there's so many other reasons why religion doesn't do it for me. Even as a youngster I got the feeling I was being manipulated with the threats of burning in hell for eternity for not believing in God. For not accepting the teachings as true. For questioning instead of having faith. The whole "faith" ideal came about purely and simply to stop people asking the hard questions.

Others like Boston tiger have accused all atheists via myself in a post that we're the only ones with "sob stories" when I've spoken about my displeasure regarding a god who allows horrendous things happen to children. I even gave an example of how a friend of my wife's has two boys who are severely disabled. I was met with cries of every label which demonstrated nothing other than a lack of empathy on the part of that individual.

I believe that religion quells the natural empathetic nature developed over hundreds of thousands of years throughout human evolution. The Church and the Bible comes first in your thoughts. If something fits within the Bible's narrative, all good. If it doesn't, tough shit.

So, I've said before that an omniscient and omnipotent God who has forsaken his very creature which he created by providing them with an insurmountable challenge does not deserve worship. What do people with severely sick or disabled children have to thank god for. God deserves a big FU instead of worship. Which gets back to the point that I do not believe that a loving god would even contemplate such scenarios. Therefore, the legitimacy of everything I've been taught about regarding god is also questioned.

At the end of the day, if everything that you lot believed was in fact true, then your god is the most horrendous, disgusting, psychotic, vengeful, blood-thirsty, megalomaniacal, petty, narcissist that ever existed. And because of that I would burn in the pits of hell for eternity before I'd submit to someone like that.
 
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The great flood is in the archaeological record. That's not to say Noah existed and all that stuff, but the great flood happened peoples.
A great worldwide flood that covered the entire earth is not in the archaeological or geological record.
 

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Plenty of evidence of the great flood.
Real empirical evidence? No there's not.

And even if you believe evolution, how would we all still be here if not for the ark?
There was never a world wide flood that covered the entire earth.

Dont forget this is divine writings.
That is very debatable and not supported with any evidence at all. You make this assertion as a matter of faith. There's no basis for believing that a god exists except faith. Relying on faith is an admission that the 'truths' of religion (i.e whether god or gods actually exist) are unknowable through evidence and reason.

Eve from Adams ribs. So many ways to look at that. Did god literally pull out a rib from Adam to make Eve? Who knows. But maybe he was actually talking about genetic markers, and giving us the heads up to understanding DNA, genetics, RNA, etc.
Who is 'he'?

Dont even know why you post in this thread if you dont believe in god.
Because I'm concerned about our species preoccupation with superstition and irrationality.
 
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A great worldwide flood that covered the entire earth is not in the archaeological or geological record.
True....But a great Cataclysm is a common theme running throughout all ancient sources in the middle East region....Including the Babylonians, Assyrians & Egyptians.

In this respect, the flood story in the OT is historically supported....Even if it was only regional in range & scope.
 

chelseacarlton

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Real empirical evidence? No there's not.



There was never a world wide flood that covered the entire earth.



That is very debatable and not supported with any evidence at all. You make this assertion as a matter of faith. There's no basis for believing that a god exists except faith. Relying on faith is an admission that the 'truths' of religion (i.e whether god or gods actually exist) are unknowable through evidence and reason.



Who is 'he'?



Because I'm concerned about our species preoccupation with superstition and irrationality.
And the big guy goes pow :thumbsu:
 

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True....But a great Cataclysm is a common theme running throughout all ancient sources in the middle East region....Including the Babylonians, Assyrians & Egyptians.
So we can discount the following literal interpretations of the Great Flood and place it on a far smaller and far more common scale. Noah and his family were survivors of a much, much smaller flood, that perhaps stretched over the river valley of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers sometime in antiquity. Maybe his name was Gilgamesh.

Genesis 7.4 "Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”

Genesis 7.19 "They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered."

Genesis 7.21 "Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind."

In this respect, the flood story in the OT is historically supported....
Only in the respect that regional floods happen naturally and frequently. Not divinely inspired at all.
 
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