The graveyard thread for endless off topic posturing on persons causing bi-polar responses

[Visenfest]

Good point, aside from the fact that he has already kicked 50+ goals in a year, and has already averaged 2+ goals in a year twice.

Won't hit that mark again though unless he really pulls his finger out. I'm not convinced he has the motivation.

 

[NoddyHolder]

I expect Wingard to have the best year of his career next year and then possibly taper off after that. Hopefully his career there coincides with hawthorn dropping off to midtable meh for half a decade or more.

If Burton, Mayes and Duursma all have good careers and contribute to a premiership or two it will be ok.

 

[Janus]

I think you're right about Wingard, in the sense that while he has the potential to be that good, he'll never have the motivation to get there. He might get a small bounce next year, but I think old habits will creep back in.

No one has ever questioned Wingard’s talent. He’s got the potential to reach his All Australian years.

He’s just not into football the way others are.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Won't hit that mark again though unless he really pulls his finger out. I'm not convinced he has the motivation.

If he doesn't hit that mark again it's because he's playing as an elite midfielder.

Talking Wingard down as "He was never that good" is embarrassing revisionist history that will look even more silly when he collects his first AA guernsey in Hawks colours.

 

[Janus]

Also skill and talent is not the same thing.

Chad was our most talented player.

Robbie Gray is by far and away our most skilful and its not even close, even with Chad in the team.

Skill is applied talent.

 

[Visenfest]

If he doesn't hit that mark again it's because he's playing as an elite midfielder.

Talking Wingard down as "He was never that good" is embarrassing revisionist history that will look even more silly when he collects his first AA guernsey in Hawks colours.

I'm not questioning whether he was talented. He had more natural talent than anyone on our list. His problem is that he lacks motivation, which can prevent any talented person from realising their full potential.

 

[El_Scorcho]

No one has ever questioned Wingard’s talent. He’s got the potential to reach his All Australian years.

He’s just not into football the way others are.

We know he can play at AA level.

We know his motivation dropped away from that level. We know he was never a footy head even when he was collecting AA guernseys.

Why are we ignoring the environment? I was bored watching Port Adelaide this year and lost a bit of motivation to go, although kept going. Surely everyone here has had work environments where they have worked harder because they liked what they were doing and slacked off because they didn't.

 

[Janus]

If he doesn't hit that mark again it's because he's playing as an elite midfielder.

Talking Wingard down as "He was never that good" is embarrassing revisionist history that will look even more silly when he collects his first AA guernsey in Hawks colours.

He was never that good. Rioli was a far better player because he actually relished defensive actions whereas Wingard is more of your Hollywood type.

We know he can play at AA level.

We know his motivation dropped away from that level. We know he was never a footy head even when he was collecting AA guernseys.

Why are we ignoring the environment? I was bored watching Port Adelaide this year and lost a bit of motivation to go, although kept going. Surely everyone here has had work environments where they have worked harder because they liked what they were doing and slacked off because they didn't.

The difference is, you are paying to watch Port play. Wingard was paid to play, and he couldn’t be arsed doing the most fundamental things in the forward line and only picked up when he was put into the midfield.

You didn’t see Robbie Gray sulking and he was playing in the same forward line. Gray actually made AA this year playing in such a crap system, so what does that say about Wingard?

 

[El_Scorcho]

He was never that good. Rioli was a far better player because he actually relished defensive actions whereas Wingard is more of your Hollywood type.



The difference is, you are paying to watch Port play. Wingard was paid to play, and he couldn’t be arsed doing the most fundamental things in the forward line and only picked up when he was put into the midfield.

You didn’t see Robbie Gray sulking and he was playing in the same forward line. Gray actually made AA this year playing in such a crap system, so what does that say about Wingard?

Gray is a perennial All Australian top 5 player in the league.

Again, Wingard HAS kicked 50 goals in a season, HAS averaged 2 goals a game twice (one of which wasn't an AA season) and has won 2 AA guernseys.

So it's motivation issue, why do we think a change of environment can't sort that out? Surely everyone here has worked harder when starting a new job and continued to work harder in a job where they had fun and felt valued?

 

[Janus]

Gray is a perennial All Australian top 5 player in the league.

Again, Wingard HAS kicked 50 goals in a season, HAS averaged 2 goals a game twice (one of which wasn't an AA season) and has won 2 AA guernseys.

So it's motivation issue, why do we think a change of environment can't sort that out? Surely everyone here has worked harder when starting a new job and continued to work harder in a job where they had fun and felt valued?

Wingard averaged that back when he had Schulz as a leading forward that would suck all the defenders toward the 50 and leave space to exploit.

He’s not an opportunist forward. He’s pretty much an elite version of Angus Monfries. Wingard would kick 50 goals in Richmond’s forward line. Hawks don’t have that sort of setup...and he’ll be playing as a mid anyway.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Wingard averaged that back when he had Schulz as a leading forward that would suck all the defenders toward the 50 and leave space to exploit.

He’s not an opportunist forward. He’s pretty much an elite version of Angus Monfries. Wingard would kick 50 goals in Richmond’s forward line. Hawks don’t have that sort of setup...and he’ll be playing as a mid anyway.

He averaged 2 goals a game in 2016, where a banged up close to retirement Schulz played 7 games.

I agree that he'll be a mid anyway but we're talking about how good he can be. He's already been an elite footballer and he will be again because the fresh start and new environment will sort out his motivation issues.

 

[Janus]

He averaged 2 goals a game in 2016, where a banged up close to retirement Schulz played 7 games.

I agree that he'll be a mid anyway but we're talking about how good he can be. He's already been an elite footballer and he will be again because the fresh start and new environment will sort out his motivation issues.

I think he’ll have a dead cat bounce, realise that it’s just not worth it and retire at 28 like Rioli.

 

[TeeKray]

Wingard, no chance. That means he’d have to kick 2 goals a game and make the GF doing it. He’s just not that good, and never was that good.

This is just unadulterated bullshit. Wingard played mainly as a wingman in 2012, mainly as a forward from 2013-2016 and mainly as a genuine midfielder in 2017 and 2018. In every year he played as a forward he averaged near enough to 2 goals a game - and in one of those seasons he actually did reach that 50 goal mark, without playing finals!

2013 - 1.79
2014 - 1.79
2015 - 2.41
2016 - 2.11

 

[Janus]

This is just unadulterated bullshit. Wingard played mainly as a wingman in 2012, mainly as a forward from 2013-2016 and mainly as a genuine midfielder in 2017 and 2018. In every year he played as a forward he averaged near enough to 2 goals a game - and in one of those seasons he actually did reach that 50 goal mark, without playing finals!

2013 - 1.79
2014 - 1.79
2015 - 2.41
2016 - 2.11

How did Port Adelaide go when he was kicking those 53 goals?

Too concerned with personal achievement.

And near enough = 45 goals.

Just like Collingwood were near enough the 2018 premiership.

 

[El_Scorcho]

"Wingard was never any good and certainly isn't good enough to achieve X, Y and Z"

*Statistical proof that Wingard has already achieved X, Y and Z*

"Wingard is selfish we haven't even won a flag in his career because of his personal selfishness"

 

[Forzaport]

Polec, sure.

Wingard, no chance. That means he’d have to kick 2 goals a game and make the GF doing it. He’s just not that good, and never was that good.

I see Wingard playing forward under Clarko and averaging over 2 goals a game. I don't think he has the desire to play full time midfield as it's not as fun as kicking goals. I could be wrong but my point was more about Chad having a good year at Hawthorn, whatever that looks like, and us being ok with it if our team performs.

 

[Janus]

"Wingard was never any good and certainly isn't good enough to achieve X, Y and Z"

*Statistical proof that Wingard has already achieved X, Y and Z*

"Wingard is selfish we haven't even won a flag in his career because of his personal selfishness"

I know it’s beyond you to understand context when deconstructing arguments, so I’ll help you out:

Chad Wingard achieved 50 goals once in a season, where we failed to make finals. In a season where we had Ryder and Schulz playing forward taking maximum heat off him.

When I say he’s not and never was that good, it’s in the context of being able to perform to that level in Hawthorn’s forward like with a top six fixture. He’s just not a grinder.

 

[Duck Farmer]

I know it’s beyond you to understand context when deconstructing arguments, so I’ll help you out:

Chad Wingard achieved 50 goals once in a season, where we failed to make finals. In a season where we had Ryder and Schulz playing forward taking maximum heat off him.

When I say he’s not and never was that good, it’s in the context of being able to perform to that level in Hawthorn’s forward like with a top six fixture. He’s just not a grinder.

Clarko clearly knows nothing.

 

[Schulzenfest]

I know it’s beyond you to understand context when deconstructing arguments, so I’ll help you out:

Chad Wingard achieved 50 goals once in a season, where we failed to make finals. In a season where we had Ryder and Schulz playing forward taking maximum heat off him.

When I say he’s not and never was that good, it’s in the context of being able to perform to that level in Hawthorn’s forward like with a top six fixture. He’s just not a grinder.

We had a top 6 fixture in 2015. We finished 3rd in 2014.

Have you ever, ever, ever admitted that you might have just gotten something wrong?

 

[Janus]

We had a top 6 fixture in 2015. We finished 3rd in 2014.

Have you ever, ever, ever admitted that you might have just gotten something wrong?

All the time. I also do people the common courtesy of actually reading what they post in context instead of focusing on one particular part because it suits my agenda. I said Port had a forward line in 2015 that took defensive pressure off him because defences were more concerned about Schulz and Ryder.

In 2015 Schulz kicked 44 goals in 21 games whereas in 2014 (2 goals a game), when Wingard was actually playing his role, Schulz kicked 60 goals in 22 games (2.7 goals a game).

How was it that Wingard managed to increase his average when our main key forward - the guy who was supposed to be getting help from Ryder playing deep and drawing defenders - ended up fading that year? It’s because we had a poor ruck in Lobbe who would never get the ball into our forward line quick enough so the defences already had Schulz and Ryder covered, making Wingard the free player. He had his best season statistically when he profited from the failures of others. You’ll notice that he fell back down to under two goals a game in 2016 when the same issue of losing taps reared it’s head - only this time, he had to deal with players who would bomb into Dixon, even bypassing him when he was in the clear.

No one likes a player who gains a reputation for not doing the team thing.

And that’s why he’ll never be as good as he should be and why he’s not as good as you think he is. And why we’ll be better off without him.

 

[OneGreatClub]

God reading this stuff I want Clarko and his team to fall into a massive hole for yesrs to come.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

God reading this stuff I want Clarko and his team to fall into a massive hole for yesrs to come.

They are too well coached to fall off the cliff.

 

[OneGreatClub]

They are too well coached to fall off the cliff.

True, but let me have my fantasy for a little while.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

I sure as s**t remember Chad Wingard playing team football & also using the term "Port Adelaide football" himself back when it actually had substance.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I know it’s beyond you to understand context when deconstructing arguments, so I’ll help you out:

Chad Wingard achieved 50 goals once in a season, where we failed to make finals. In a season where we had Ryder and Schulz playing forward taking maximum heat off him.

When I say he’s not and never was that good, it’s in the context of being able to perform to that level in Hawthorn’s forward like with a top six fixture. He’s just not a grinder.

So you're arguing that the 2015 AA guernsey Chad Wingard won wouldn't have been possible if he were playing for a better side with a better attacking system?

In 2015, Schulz was 18 months away from retirement and Chad Wingard turned 22, that's probably why Wingard took the obvious step up, but Schulz regressed statistically because the team regressed because Ken Hinkley and his assistants didn't see that teams had become afraid of our slingshot style and were now playing uberdefensively to counter it.

Even then, Schulz only averaged 0.4 less goals a season than in 2014.

Chad Wingard, Mr Selfish himself, averaged more contested possessions, clearances and Inside 50s in 2015 than he had in 2014, despite your horseshit assertation that he became a selfish glory hog only playing for himself.

So when do you reckon you'll be admitting you were wrong on this one?