The graveyard thread for endless off topic posturing on persons causing bi-polar responses

Pappagallo

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You know that quoting Sun Tzu doesn't really make you look like an intellectual, right?

You argue that the word formless in the context of a discussion on form in the game of Aussie rules doesn't mean what 99.9% of the English speaking population take it to mean in that context and then to support this you quote something written in the context of battles between armies using lethal force.

I agree with JimmyBeerCans, it's less about context and more about the vibe.
No the context is offensive and defensive strategy, which is common to both sport and war.
 

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Janus

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You know that quoting Sun Tzu doesn't really make you look like an intellectual, right?

You argue that the word formless in the context of a discussion on form in the game of Aussie rules doesn't mean what 99.9% of the English speaking population take it to mean in that context and then to support this you quote something written in the context of battles between armies using lethal force.

I agree with JimmyBeerCans, it's less about context and more about the vibe.
I said 'formlessness' not 'formless' because I knew what I was quoting and the context of what I was applying it to, which was strategy. I'm really not sure why you've got such a hard on for this. Who cares?
 

chiwigi

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You absolutely cannot be formless in offence unless you're the U15s having a scratch match against the U12s.

You can't move the ball quickly if you don't know where your teammates will be. We were speaking the other day about how everything goes to shit when players have to stop and think. Formlessness forces them to think because they can't predict where the options are going to be.

We were pretty formless in offence in 2018 and we just had zero answer for a well structured defence. We only cracked the premiership zone 100 point barrier 3 times. That's absolutely disastrous.

I completely agree that pressure and intercept possessions are a non-negotiable for any side who has any interest in winning, but you have to have a system for moving the ball that you can rely on.
Gridiron is the perfect example of this, there is very little time when attacking so you need to know where your teammate will be, the decisions make themselves and the speed or transition/execution is almost unplayable.
When the offence is properly drilled the defence has to react instead of being able to structure.
 

El_Scorcho

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Gridiron is the perfect example of this, there is very little time when attacking so you need to know where your teammate will be, the decisions make themselves and the speed or transition/execution is almost unplayable.
When the offence is properly drilled the defence has to react instead of being able to structure.
Yep, exactly. Reacting to the defence without a sound offensive strategy will get you sacked or tackled for a loss again and again and again.

It happens in every sport. The 90s Chicago Bulls dynasty was built on a system called the Triangle offence. Not the triangle system. It was a system designed to score against a structured, well drilled defence who are trying to stop you.
 

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Janus

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Yep, exactly. Reacting to the defence without a sound offensive strategy will get you sacked or tackled for a loss again and again and again.

It happens in every sport. The 90s Chicago Bulls dynasty was built on a system called the Triangle offence. Not the triangle system. It was a system designed to score against a structured, well drilled defence who are trying to stop you.
You mean this triangle offence?

“The system's most important feature is the sideline triangle created by the center, who stands at the low post, the forward at the wing, and the guard at the corner. The team's other guard stands at the top of the key and the weak-side forward is on the weak-side high post—together forming the "two-man game". The goal of the offense is to fill those five spots, which creates good spacing between players and allows each one to pass to four teammates. Every pass and cut has a purpose and everything is dictated by the defense.

Sounds more like what I’m talking about (being adaptable to what the defence is throwing at you), then what you are. The triangle shifts in accordance to where the free space is - it doesn’t remain stagnant and say “Move bitch, get out the way.”

That’s why I said formlessness is the pinnacle. Derek Rose called the triangle offence “random basketball” because if you don’t know how to play it that’s exactly what it looks like. And that’s because the structure isn’t fixed, but dynamic and fluid.
 

El_Scorcho

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You mean this triangle offence?

“The system's most important feature is the sideline triangle created by the center, who stands at the low post, the forward at the wing, and the guard at the corner. The team's other guard stands at the top of the key and the weak-side forward is on the weak-side high post—together forming the "two-man game". The goal of the offense is to fill those five spots, which creates good spacing between players and allows each one to pass to four teammates. Every pass and cut has a purpose and everything is dictated by the defense.

Sounds more like what I’m talking about (being adaptable to what the defence is throwing at you), then what you are. The triangle shifts in accordance to where the free space is - it doesn’t remain stagnant and say “Move bitch, get out the way.”

That’s why I said formlessness is the pinnacle. Derek Rose called the triangle offence “random basketball” because if you don’t know how to play it that’s exactly what it looks like. And that’s because the structure isn’t fixed, but dynamic and fluid.
Yes.

In the triangle offence there is a set play for however the defence sets up and moves.

If you're arguing that we should have a wide variety of reliable set plays to take advantage of the weaknesses of the opposition defence, then I fully agree. That's not formlessness though, it's the exact opposite of that. It's a meticulous system where everyone has a role, knows their role and knows their teammate's roles.
 

Janus

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Yes.

In the triangle offence there is a set play for however the defence sets up and moves.

If you're arguing that we should have a wide variety of reliable set plays to take advantage of the weaknesses of the opposition defence, then I fully agree. That's not formlessness though, it's the exact opposite of that. It's a meticulous system where everyone has a role, knows their role and knows their teammate's roles.
In the strategic sense, formlessness is the pinnacle of progression from having no form, to form, to having no definite form. It’s a system where the principle concepts dictate the offence rather than a set number of laws.

If one of the principles is “Keep separation between all players of 10m when the ball is in motion”...do you really need to worry about instructing mids/forwards on position?

If one of the principles is “Players within 5m of the ball provide active support”...do you really need to explain the difference between active support for the handball receive or active support with defensive pressure/tackling? And when those players do move in to support...doesn’t rule one about positioning dictate that everyone else moves to fill in the space and make sure that the offence/defence maintains a form that is fluid?

That is what is meant by formlessness. As soon as you make something rigid, you give something to push against. That’s why Bassett’s possession football out of defence wouldn’t work in a million years unless it beat the opposition defenders back into our 50. As soon as the defence moved the ball quickly - Robbie Gray scores 5 goals in a quarter.

I’ll say it again: “Running water never grows stale.”
 

Byrons Firen

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Last few pages on this thread.... ******* hell
Well it is the off season, where circular arguments are fought by those wanting the last word with an echo.
Today it's in sync with what i'm watching on SBS, the Indian Pacific doco....oddly entertaining if you don't nod off.
 

El_Scorcho

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In the strategic sense, formlessness is the pinnacle of progression from having no form, to form, to having no definite form. It’s a system where the principle concepts dictate the offence rather than a set number of laws.

If one of the principles is “Keep separation between all players of 10m when the ball is in motion”...do you really need to worry about instructing mids/forwards on position?

If one of the principles is “Players within 5m of the ball provide active support”...do you really need to explain the difference between active support for the handball receive or active support with defensive pressure/tackling? And when those players do move in to support...doesn’t rule one about positioning dictate that everyone else moves to fill in the space and make sure that the offence/defence maintains a form that is fluid?

That is what is meant by formlessness. As soon as you make something rigid, you give something to push against. That’s why Bassett’s possession football out of defence wouldn’t work in a million years unless it beat the opposition defenders back into our 50. As soon as the defence moved the ball quickly - Robbie Gray scores 5 goals in a quarter.

I’ll say it again: “Running water never grows stale.”
The triangle offence only works because every player knows where their teammate's will be in every situation. Every cut and every pass is made for a reason.

Players need to know where the options will be or they'll hesitate and then get intercepted. It can't be as simple as "have support runners", you need short options and long options, and you need other players leading to move the defence around.

It will look fluid because options and space will open up everywhere because the team is working as a well oiled machine, with each player playing their role in the system.
 

edgie

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West Coast turned the grand final when Kennedy came in to the game. West Coast going to Kennedy is possibly the most predictable attacking play in the league, yet here we are. Reigning premiers.

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Janus

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The triangle offence only works because every player knows where their teammate's will be in every situation. Every cut and every pass is made for a reason.

Players need to know where the options will be or they'll hesitate and then get intercepted. It can't be as simple as "have support runners", you need short options and long options, and you need other players leading to move the defence around.

It will look fluid because options and space will open up everywhere because the team is working as a well oiled machine, with each player playing their role in the system.
The unpredictablity of a triangle offence comes from the ability of the attacking team to adjust to anything that the defenders throw at them. They don't go into any situation thinking 'Okay, now we are going to run play X and score.' They go into a play starting with play X, but that can morph into play A, C, W, Q...whatever, based on what the defence is doing. And it morphs based on the principles of establishing spacing on the court and constantly creating either a strong side triangle with the post player (who can be anybody) or becoming the weak side 'two-man offence'. They don't run exact set plays like you're talking about. That's why a lot of basketball players struggle with it, because it requires a level of intelligent perception of what is happening on the court rather than just simply running Xs and Os.

From https://hooptactics.net/premium/offense/setoffense/trianglepost.php:

The Triangle Post Offense is unique in that it uses a system of defensive recognition rather than a series of set plays.
The Triangle Post Offense is based solely on sound principles, precise court spacing, and execution of fundamentals.

My idea comes from this concept. It's not about knowing where each individual teammate will be, but knowing that a teammate will be in that position regardless. So at one particular point, it might be Watts filling the wing position. Then as the play moves around and Watts gets the ball and moves it forward into attack, filling the spot of a half forward flank, Burton pushes up and takes the wing position. And so on and so forth. And as players move into different positions on the field, they create mismatches with their opponents that can be exploited.

The only players that don't really move around much should be the key position 'anchor' players like Jonas and Dixon.

You go through any dynastic sports team in history and there is one constant factor with all of them - they all were fluid with their movement and had a system that reacted to what the defence was throwing up. Whether it's Phil Jackson's triangle offence, Bill Belichick's option route offence or the Soviet Union's Red Army ice hockey passing system, they all had a version of this.

It's why Nicks' stupid 'team offence' crap rightly went the way of the dustbin. That's an Adelaide style of play, and it's garbage. As soon as they came up against a team that didn't react they way they anticipated in their pregame, they fell into a heap on the field.

I want a team that coaches itself on the field.
 

El_Scorcho

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The unpredictablity of a triangle offence comes from the ability of the attacking team to adjust to anything that the defenders throw at them. They don't go into any situation thinking 'Okay, now we are going to run play X and score.' They go into a play starting with play X, but that can morph into play A, C, W, Q...whatever, based on what the defence is doing. And it morphs based on the principles of establishing spacing on the court and constantly creating either a strong side triangle with the post player (who can be anybody) or becoming the weak side 'two-man offence'. They don't run exact set plays like you're talking about. That's why a lot of basketball players struggle with it, because it requires a level of intelligent perception of what is happening on the court rather than just simply running Xs and Os.

From https://hooptactics.net/premium/offense/setoffense/trianglepost.php:

The Triangle Post Offense is unique in that it uses a system of defensive recognition rather than a series of set plays.
The Triangle Post Offense is based solely on sound principles, precise court spacing, and execution of fundamentals.

My idea comes from this concept. It's not about knowing where each individual teammate will be, but knowing that a teammate will be in that position regardless. So at one particular point, it might be Watts filling the wing position. Then as the play moves around and Watts gets the ball and moves it forward into attack, filling the spot of a half forward flank, Burton pushes up and takes the wing position. And so on and so forth. And as players move into different positions on the field, they create mismatches with their opponents that can be exploited.

The only players that don't really move around much should be the key position 'anchor' players like Jonas and Dixon.

You go through any dynastic sports team in history and there is one constant factor with all of them - they all were fluid with their movement and had a system that reacted to what the defence was throwing up. Whether it's Phil Jackson's triangle offence, Bill Belichick's option route offence or the Soviet Union's Red Army ice hockey passing system, they all had a version of this.

It's why Nicks' stupid 'team offence' crap rightly went the way of the dustbin. That's an Adelaide style of play, and it's garbage. As soon as they came up against a team that didn't react they way they anticipated in their pregame, they fell into a heap on the field.

I want a team that coaches itself on the field.
I agree that it doesn't matter which player is in each position as long as one of them is, but last year we didn't have anyone in predictable positions when moving the ball and the result was that we were hesitant and turned the ball over a lot.

We need a system this year so that players know which positions to take up and where to move to create options
 

Janus

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I agree that it doesn't matter which player is in each position as long as one of them is, but last year we didn't have anyone in predictable positions when moving the ball and the result was that we were hesitant and turned the ball over a lot.

We need a system this year so that players know which positions to take up and where to move to create options
We were 6th for turnovers per game last season with 73.4. West Coast were second last with 67.7. Richmond and Collingwood moved the ball faster and were only marginally worse than our crap which was slow.

See, I think we were slow because we were waiting for players to get into predictable positions instead of just moving the ball forward and saying 'You know what? You sort yourselves out around the guy with the ball and get to the place where he is going to be, rather than him waiting for you to get set up around the place where he is now.'

As soon as I heard the term 'team offence' I knew it why it was shit. And I'm quite certain it was a Nicks idea, because he had such a hard on for the way Adelaide moved the ball in 2017. They were all about setting up specific players in certain positions.

What gives me hope is the idea that the gameplan is now player driven. That means that the players are going to have to take responsibility for its success or failure and all the coaches have to do is relay to the players what is happening across the field. I reckon we're going to see a less is more approach when it comes to system, and in doing so, the system will actually be stronger because of its simplicity.

Stop trying to control everything and just let go.
 
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