The graveyard thread for endless off topic posturing on persons causing bi-polar responses

El_Scorcho

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Brady's talent isn't physical. He's absolutely gotten himself very fit and durable, and he has a very good arm, but certainly there have been more accurate passers and stronger arms in the league. What makes him the GOAT is his ability to scan and assess the field and to make correct decisions under pressure. He can continue to make the right pass while avoiding pass rushers and doesn't seem to be affected at all by pressure, whether it be tacklers or the game situation.

You can train the arm and you can practice all you like but some of that stuff is just natural. The mentality can't be taught, and to be successful you absolutely need leaders with that sort of mentality. If it were just about working hard, there are plenty of more athletically gifted quarterbacks working just as hard in the NFL right now who will never be Tom Brady, and it's not through a lack of trying.



For Kraft, he's giving a good example of PR, crediting the fans for his success. He's an absolutely ruthless decision maker and gets the right people in place. Everyone who arrives in that organisation knows the standard immediately. It's been easy for him to be stable because he found the right coach and QB very early on in his tenure as owner.

Checking egos at the door is absolutely paramount, but in the Kraft position at our club we have David Koch. I'm not sure what more there is to say there. Koch is an ego driven buffoon and that buffoonery permeates throughout our club.



Every battle is won before it is fought, and Ken Hinkley has outcoached his opponent maybe a handful of times since 2014. We win because we can simply outclass teams, and we're always beaten by teams that are too organised or too hardworking for us. The Patriots might have a malleable plan that they adjust to beat each opponent, but they still run plays that they've practiced 1000 times on every snap. We get to the half backline then look like an NFL team with no playbook who has just snapped the ball and we're hoping an option presents itself.

That first line there. it's all about preparation. You know what you're doing and you have an idea what your opponents can do, what their strengths and weaknesses are. This is not a typical of this team under Hinkley at all, and it's exactly what I argue every week on this forum. How many times have we been tearing our hair out on Thursday night knowing that we've picked a side that is hamstrung immediately against that weekend's opponent?


As for the last part, you're talking about an accountable organisation who has strong standards in place the whole way through their organisation and enforce them. Despite the rumours about Chad's ongoing poor attitude, he was never so much as dropped. We don't hold anyone accountable like great sports organisations do, and that culture comes from the top down.
 

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edgie

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When Wingard kicked it forward to nobody in teal I'm prone to believe it was a mix of Hinkley's patented brave football along with his trademark empty forward half.

When Charlie played the game of his life and missed twice as much as he goaled, I think he too was doing exactly what was asked of him.

Sent from mTalk
 

Schulzenfest

TheBrownDog
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Only on this board could people read what I said about Brady being a hard worker who encouraged his teammates to apply Belichick’s system and think that I’m saying we need to draft the Australian Rules equivalent of Tom Brady, or worse, think that I’m trying to apply the specific play calling concepts of American football into the Australian version.

What I am saying is that it took Belichick 5 failed years - and had a 6th at New England - before Brady came in and took over the locker room and said “Hey, just for a change, let’s stop thinking we know better and do it his way. I know it’s hard but he’s the head coach and we owe it to him to play the way he wants us to play.”

Maybe we’ve got rid of the players who weren’t prepared to do that.
Or maybe we're taking the piss out of you thinking that the reason that the Patriots have been so successful since Tom Brady arrived is because 'he works hard and follows the coach's system' rather than because of his immense talent.

Anybody can work hard and follow the coach's system. We could recruit you to do that if we wanted. It wouldn't win us the flag.
 

theDuckFarmer

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Here's a story that might make you think twice about why Chad Wingard was traded:

"We're having a meeting, and in comes a first round draft pick from a previous year. Walks into the front of the meeting, not into the back, and sits down...and I've already started the meeting, I'm three or four minutes in. And I just look at him like 'What are you doing?' and he said 'Sorry, coach.' And I said, 'Sorry? Get out of here.' We're not going to start this program off with you walking in whenever you feel like walking in, I don't care if the guy's a number one draft choice or not a number one draft choice. We're just not going to run a team like this."
I also agree Belichick would have got Wingard to pull his head in and turned him around. Your point?
 

Janus

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Brady's talent isn't physical. He's absolutely gotten himself very fit and durable, and he has a very good arm, but certainly there have been more accurate passers and stronger arms in the league. What makes him the GOAT is his ability to scan and assess the field and to make correct decisions under pressure. He can continue to make the right pass while avoiding pass rushers and doesn't seem to be affected at all by pressure, whether it be tacklers or the game situation.

You can train the arm and you can practice all you like but some of that stuff is just natural. The mentality can't be taught, and to be successful you absolutely need leaders with that sort of mentality. If it were just about working hard, there are plenty of more athletically gifted quarterbacks working just as hard in the NFL right now who will never be Tom Brady, and it's not through a lack of trying.
Bellichick says he worked on his mentality and his ability to read game situations. He said he was smart. Maybe the reason why those quarterbacks don't achieve the same success as Brady is because they never had to work for it from the start - they were always the best in their position so when they came into college or into the NFL they hadn't put in the hours necessary to get to the stage where that mental resilience was ingrained.

For Kraft, he's giving a good example of PR, crediting the fans for his success. He's an absolutely ruthless decision maker and gets the right people in place. Everyone who arrives in that organisation knows the standard immediately. It's been easy for him to be stable because he found the right coach and QB very early on in his tenure as owner.

Checking egos at the door is absolutely paramount, but in the Kraft position at our club we have David Koch. I'm not sure what more there is to say there. Koch is an ego driven buffoon and that buffoonery permeates throughout our club.
Koch was the one that pushed for a greenhorn Michael Voss who had been fired from Brisbane after stepping into the head coaching role with no experience to take over from Phil Walsh, and Keith Thomas was the one who pushed for a dullard like Brendan Lade without actually having a designated role for him to take over. How are you ever going to get the right people working together when you've got guys making poor decisions as to who the support staff is?

I honestly couldn't give two fu**s about Koch or what he does. It's really irrelevant in terms of on-field performance. As long as he butts out of football matters, that's all that I'm concerned about. I'm more concerned with KT and the fact that he has lurched from one disastrous appointment to another - he had Hinkley, Richardson and Walsh lined up for 2014 as a coaching dream team and then those 'good people' pissed off to St Kilda and Adelaide. Then he scrambled and appointed Voss, appointed Hart (and then fired him when the guy was never really a problem - mainly because he really didn't do anything except keep Ken calm - but he needed a scapegoat), appointed Nicks to senior assistant for god knows what reason and then appointed Lade.

That's what you get when you don't discuss appointments with your head coach. There's no way Ken would have said 'appoint Nicks to senior assistant so he can run the gameplan and I can just concentrate on coaching the players'. KT has - for whatever reason - wanted to surround Hinkley with coaches that put the handbrake on, either mentally or emotionally.

I say with Schofield, Bassett and Montgomery we've finally got a group that seems like they are on the same page. Actual good people rather than people who just see Port Adelaide as a stepping stone to further their coaching career.

Every battle is won before it is fought, and Ken Hinkley has outcoached his opponent maybe a handful of times since 2014. We win because we can simply outclass teams, and we're always beaten by teams that are too organised or too hardworking for us. The Patriots might have a malleable plan that they adjust to beat each opponent, but they still run plays that they've practiced 1000 times on every snap. We get to the half backline then look like an NFL team with no playbook who has just snapped the ball and we're hoping an option presents itself.

That first line there. it's all about preparation. You know what you're doing and you have an idea what your opponents can do, what their strengths and weaknesses are. This is not a typical of this team under Hinkley at all, and it's exactly what I argue every week on this forum. How many times have we been tearing our hair out on Thursday night knowing that we've picked a side that is hamstrung immediately against that weekend's opponent?
I’ve already shown you how garbage our list profile is. It’s getting better but you can only do as much as what injuries and key development requirements (young players learning the game) allow you.

As for the last part, you're talking about an accountable organisation who has strong standards in place the whole way through their organisation and enforce them. Despite the rumours about Chad's ongoing poor attitude, he was never so much as dropped. We don't hold anyone accountable like great sports organisations do, and that culture comes from the top down.
I think that came from the poor environment that had been created in the club, where the head coach felt isolated and couldn’t run his own system and instead had to run a gameplan that was created by his senior assistant. It was a place of competition and justification instead of cooperation and justice.
 

Janus

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Or maybe we're taking the piss out of you thinking that the reason that the Patriots have been so successful since Tom Brady arrived is because 'he works hard and follows the coach's system' rather than because of his immense talent.

Anybody can work hard and follow the coach's system. We could recruit you to do that if we wanted. It wouldn't win us the flag.
I do love it when people quote a post of mine and don’t read the rest of the thread, where I’ve already addressed exactly what they think is some salient point.

Go see my reply to El_Scorcho saying exactly the same misguided thing.
 

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theDuckFarmer

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Koch was the one that pushed for a greenhorn Michael Voss who had been fired from Brisbane after stepping into the head coaching role with no experience to take over from Phil Walsh
Keith Thomas was the one who pushed for a dullard like Brendan Lade without actually having a designated role for him to take over.
That's what you get when you don't discuss appointments with your head coach.
KT has - for whatever reason - wanted to surround Hinkley with coaches that put the handbrake on, either mentally or emotionally.
I’ve already shown you how garbage our list profile is.
It was a place of competition and justification instead of cooperation and justice.
After seeing so many incontrovertible and hard-hitting facts in just one post, I've come around to your way of thinking that we are all idiots and that Hinkley is Belichick incarnate and will lead us to 5 (possibly 6) AFL flags.
 

Janus

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Sure but 'Dream Team' is taking the piss.
Hinkley has been involved extensively with the Geelong system when they were winning flags. Richardson had been involved extensively with Collingwood under Malthouse. Walsh had won a flag with Port and was regarded as one of the most astute minds in the game.

Both of them left to coach their own teams after a year.

In the context of what Keith Thomas could put together, and has up until the point he got out of the way and actually included his coach in the selection process, it was a dream team.
 

JimmyBeerCans

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Hinkley has been involved extensively with the Geelong system when they were winning flags. Richardson had been involved extensively with Collingwood under Malthouse. Walsh had won a flag with Port and was regarded as one of the most astute minds in the game.

Both of them left to coach their own teams after a year.

In the context of what Keith Thomas could put together, and has up until the point he got out of the way and actually included his coach in the selection process, it was a dream team.
Best available maybe but even that's debatable on Richo & Hinkles, far from Dream Team status.
 

El_Scorcho

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I can't accept that you've shown us how garbage our list profile is when you've spent the last 4 years telling us we were on the cusp of a dynasty. You've genuinely described in detail how players we've recruited will be the final piece of the puzzle. I get that you're just going to say that you didn't have enough info and now you do so you can make a better educated call, which is a cop out but whatever.

But I vehemently disagree that Koch is immaterial in all of this. He sets the tone for everything we do, and everything we do is disappointing.
 

Janus

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I can't accept that you've shown us how garbage our list profile is when you've spent the last 4 years telling us we were on the cusp of a dynasty. You've genuinely described in detail how players we've recruited will be the final piece of the puzzle. I get that you're just going to say that you didn't have enough info and now you do so you can make a better educated call, which is a cop out but whatever.

But I vehemently disagree that Koch is immaterial in all of this. He sets the tone for everything we do, and everything we do is disappointing.
Still are on the cusp of a dynasty.

All my statements are based on the football that I know the other players are capable of producing, because I've seen it. The best 22 has always been adequate for the most part...the problem with the list is that it was unbalanced. Our best years came when everyone was fighting for spots and there was genuine competition on the field.

That's why I've always qualified my statements with 'barring significant injury.' Any team that was relying on guys like Ah Chee and Young as their back up midfield wasn't going anywhere if they were getting a lot of games. Were the players the next piece of the puzzle? Absolutely. But if another piece goes missing due to injury, and you don't have a piece that can replace it, how exactly are you going to complete it?

A good list profile would have you losing depth players to other clubs for greater opportunity and improving your draft position because they are actually rated as being worth something.

I like our list profile now. REH and I discussed how long it would take to build up a list profile that was premiership worthy. I went for 2018 because I'm optimistic, he went for 2019. Of course, at the time I forgot about the inclusion of Gold Coast and GWS and the fact that their presence had diluted the draft pool to the point where the average time to build for a flag had now been extended by two years, so I was too aggressive in my time line.

It still needs a bit of work, but if we got an injury to Wines, for example, I'm confident that Atley would step in and perform. Not to the same level, of course, but the team wouldn't fall in a hole.
 

JUSTWORK

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Still are on the cusp of a dynasty.

All my statements are based on the football that I know the other players are capable of producing, because I've seen it. The best 22 has always been adequate for the most part...the problem with the list is that it was unbalanced. Our best years came when everyone was fighting for spots and there was genuine competition on the field.

That's why I've always qualified my statements with 'barring significant injury.' Any team that was relying on guys like Ah Chee and Young as their back up midfield wasn't going anywhere if they were getting a lot of games. Were the players the next piece of the puzzle? Absolutely. But if another piece goes missing due to injury, and you don't have a piece that can replace it, how exactly are you going to complete it?

A good list profile would have you losing depth players to other clubs for greater opportunity and improving your draft position because they are actually rated as being worth something.

I like our list profile now. REH and I discussed how long it would take to build up a list profile that was premiership worthy. I went for 2018 because I'm optimistic, he went for 2019. Of course, at the time I forgot about the inclusion of Gold Coast and GWS and the fact that their presence had diluted the draft pool to the point where the average time to build for a flag had now been extended by two years, so I was too aggressive in my time line.

It still needs a bit of work, but if we got an injury to Wines, for example, I'm confident that Atley would step in and perform. Not to the same level, of course, but the team wouldn't fall in a hole.
Should be on the cusp, not sure we are though.

We've been on the cusp for 4 years now and in that period plaid in 1 final and lost it. We have so much that we need to get right and so much to prove, because being on the cusp doesn't necessarily translate to even getting close, as we've seen in recent years.

Atley is one who im keen on seeing, i don't want him to get a chance because Wines is injured. (Hopefully Cornes mail is false and its only a few weeks on ice.) I want to see Atley force his way in because over the course of the preseason he has gotten himself in front of guys like Boak, Ebo and possibly Rockliff.
 

tribey

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I can't accept that you've shown us how garbage our list profile is when you've spent the last 4 years telling us we were on the cusp of a dynasty. You've genuinely described in detail how players we've recruited will be the final piece of the puzzle. I get that you're just going to say that you didn't have enough info and now you do so you can make a better educated call, which is a cop out but whatever.

But I vehemently disagree that Koch is immaterial in all of this. He sets the tone for everything we do, and everything we do is disappointing.
The muddled messaging and lack of strategic direction from the top hasn’t helped.

Began 2017 with Koch saying a third consecutive year of failure would be unacceptable, then 2 games in (wins over Sydney & Freo) Koch made the infamous ‘10-year coach’ statement, ended with Thomas giving the year a pass mark and Hinkley winning a 3-year extension with 12 months to run (with Koch cooking the players and subsequently apologising).

At the end of 2018 we had Koch’s “at 11-4 Ken was a superhero” comment, and Lade’s bizarre “no-one was complaining about our footy when we won 5 in a row” comment, which combined is emblematic of the bubble they’re in. Ended by sacrificing Wingard to the Fortnite gods and letting Polec walk despite coming off his best year. The three K’s can’t/won’t leave, can they.

Talk of dynasties and implementing this and that for concerted success is laughable. We are a mediocre club led by mediocre men.
 

JUSTWORK

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The muddled messaging and lack of strategic direction from the top hasn’t helped.

Began 2017 with Koch saying a third consecutive year of failure would be unacceptable, then 2 games in (wins over Sydney & Freo) Koch made the infamous ‘10-year coach’ statement, ended with Thomas giving the year a pass mark and Hinkley winning a 3-year extension with 12 months to run (with Koch cooking the players and subsequently apologising).

At the end of 2018 we had Koch’s “at 11-4 Ken was a superhero” comment, and Lade’s bizarre “no-one was complaining about our footy when we won 5 in a row” comment, which combined is emblematic of the bubble they’re in. Ended by sacrificing Wingard to the Fortnite gods and letting Polec walk despite coming off his best year. The three K’s can’t/won’t leave, can they.

Talk of dynasties and implementing this and that for concerted success is laughable. We are a mediocre club led by mediocre men.
When thats where you set a pass mark, with messages like that, you don't end up with a dynasty.
 

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