The graveyard thread for endless off topic posturing on persons causing bi-polar responses

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Kiss from a Rozee

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Nov 23, 2018
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I found myself wondering yesterday what it is that Dixon provides that Butcher couldn't have provided. Take a big defender, crash a few packs, take a good mark every so often, convert 1 in every 4 shots on goal seemingly at random. It confuses me to be frank.
How can people say this unironically?

Is this just a meme I’m not in on? Butcher wasn’t even up to SANFL ffs.
 

TeeKray

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Mar 1, 2014
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How can people say this unironically?

Is this just a meme I’m not in on? Butcher wasn’t even up to SANFL ffs.
Yeah let’s calm down with the Butch comparisons. We loved him back in the day but he was pure s**t compared to Dixon.
Career averages:

Dixon - 11.72d/3.92m/1.56g
Butcher - 8.71d/3.29m/1.32g

I guess Dixon just shades Butcher statistically. But let's consider that one of these guys was delisted after spasmodic opportunity under Hinkley whilst the other was traded in at the cost of two first round draft picks plus probably $650-700k cap space per season.

Essentially, they are similar players for me. Lion hearted efforts that can't be questioned, good at crashing packs and drawing defenders, can take the odd great mark, struggle to actually kick goals. I think Butcher is a better ground level player and a better mark on the lead. Dixon is a better kick for goal on average. But overall, I think they are interchangeable players.
 

JUSTWORK

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Aug 25, 2013
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Career averages:

Dixon - 11.72d/3.92m/1.56g
Butcher - 8.71d/3.29m/1.32g

I guess Dixon just shades Butcher statistically. But let's consider that one of these guys was delisted after spasmodic opportunity under Hinkley whilst the other was traded in at the cost of two first round draft picks plus probably $650-700k cap space per season.

Essentially, they are similar players for me. Lion hearted efforts that can't be questioned, good at crashing packs and drawing defenders, can take the odd great mark, struggle to actually kick goals. I think Butcher is a better ground level player and a better mark on the lead. Dixon is a better kick for goal on average. But overall, I think they are interchangeable players.
Hinkleys game plan has wasted Dixon just like he has ruined many players. In his last three years at the GC he averaged 2.5 goals a game.

Hinkley expects super hikes efforts from Dixon, To say he is no better (or only slightly better) than Butcher is rediculous.

Hinkley would make peak Franklin look only average.
 

OneGreatClub

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Nov 6, 2014
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Hinkleys game plan has wasted Dixon just like he has ruined many players. In his last three years at the GC he averaged 2.5 goals a game.

Hinkley expects super hikes efforts from Dixon, To say he is no better (or only slightly better) than Butcher is rediculous.

Hinkley would make peak Franklin look only average.
We don’t seem to rate forward coaching. I don’t get why we haven’t moved hell and high water for a competent coach in our forward line.
 

dirty2

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We don’t seem to rate forward coaching. I don’t get why we haven’t moved hell and high water for a competent coach in our forward line.
Ports forward coach is like *the defence against dark arts* position at Hogwarts.. cursed.
 

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MadFan23

"We're all hurting." PAFC 2015-present
Oct 3, 2013
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Hinkleys game plan has wasted Dixon just like he has ruined many players. In his last three years at the GC he averaged 2.5 goals a game.

Hinkley expects super hikes efforts from Dixon, To say he is no better (or only slightly better) than Butcher is rediculous.

Hinkley would make peak Franklin look only average.
The crux of your argument is that Hinkley's coaching has wasted the careers of KPFs. I agree with this, but the argument applies equally to the career of Butcher, does it not? Statistically, Butcher and Dixon are very similar, as pointed out by TeeKray. Both have underperformed, and the common theme is Hinkley's coaching. Both players may have been more successful with better forward coaching.
 

Magus

Brownlow Medallist
Dec 31, 2013
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Hinkleys game plan has wasted Dixon just like he has ruined many players. In his last three years at the GC he averaged 2.5 goals a game.

Hinkley expects super hikes efforts from Dixon, To say he is no better (or only slightly better) than Butcher is rediculous.

Hinkley would make peak Franklin look only average.
I have no doubt that Schulz could've played an extra year or two if he was given some help.
 

JUSTWORK

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 25, 2013
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The crux of your argument is that Hinkley's coaching has wasted the careers of KPFs. I agree with this, but the argument applies equally to the career of Butcher, does it not? Statistically, Butcher and Dixon are very similar, as pointed out by TeeKray. Both have underperformed, and the common theme is Hinkley's coaching. Both players may have been more successful with better forward coaching.
Dixon is miles ahead of Butch, I loved Butch like everyon, don’t doubt other coaches would have got more from him but he’d never of been on Charlie’s level.

It’s not just KPFs, look at the last few years of Boaks career being shoehorned into a half forward role Vs now back in the role he won 2 AA selections.
 

B0ydmental

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Sep 18, 2017
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Butcher was never allowed to settle but IDGAF about butcher comparisons.

Last 2 seasons, 32 goals from 25 games. I'd almost pick Sam Gray before Dixon. The guy is a deteriorating spud. He now reliably drops marks, then goes mad dog and gives away frees then glares at umpire before holding little ball in palm of big hand and throwing it back to opponent.


YearTeamGMKHDMGBTHOFFFAGAI50CLCGR50BL
2019​
5​
32​
24​
56​
12​
6​
8​
10​
16​
11​
12​
3​
7​
6​
24​
0​
2018​
20​
158​
107​
265​
82​
26​
24​
51​
159​
35​
29​
13​
50​
26​
54​
6​
3​
2017​
23​
218​
117​
335​
149​
49​
30​
71​
29​
34​
32​
16​
80​
11​
64​
0​
8​
2016​
18​
102​
103​
205​
70​
30​
16​
31​
21​
19​
23​
8​
33​
4​
48​
3​
2​
2015​
Suns
16​
102​
49​
151​
59​
41​
15​
27​
32​
31​
21​
4​
17​
9​
40​
1​
6​
2014​
Suns
14​
74​
55​
129​
37​
24​
9​
28​
69​
18​
13​
3​
14​
14​
19​
6​
2013​
Suns
13​
93​
73​
166​
42​
19​
7​
31​
135​
19​
8​
10​
37​
42​
22​
7​
4​
2012​
Suns
12​
89​
62​
151​
48​
4​
6​
21​
93​
16​
16​
3​
19​
28​
26​
19​
2011​
Suns
10​
39​
38​
77​
14​
6​
4​
18​
9​
11​
11​
5​
12​
4​
22​
1​

Sam Gray is a barely differentiable
YearTeamGMKHDMGBTHOFFFAGAI50CLCGR50BL
2019​
15​
135​
141​
276​
56​
18​
13​
57​
0​
17​
11​
8​
43​
21​
33​
6​
2018​
19​
148​
145​
293​
68​
21​
16​
53​
0​
21​
13​
7​
41​
17​
44​
15​
4​
2017​
23​
261​
150​
411​
139​
28​
28​
53​
0​
21​
13​
10​
76​
13​
50​
26​
3​


Jay Schultz on a bad day with gastro was light years ahead of anything Dixon has achieved. If Dixon wasn't 200cm and ran around with an angry beard would we even play him?


YearTeamGMKHDMGBTHOFFFAGAI50CLCGR50BL
2016​
7​
33​
33​
66​
22​
10​
4​
13​
0​
5​
7​
2​
11​
1​
12​
1​
2015​
20​
153​
74​
227​
110​
44​
17​
45​
0​
20​
22​
5​
34​
4​
39​
4​
1​
2014​
25​
219​
94​
313​
160​
66​
26​
57​
3​
24​
28​
15​
50​
2​
52​
4​
6​
2013​
24​
216​
134​
350​
146​
49​
26​
52​
1​
27​
26​
8​
52​
26​
52​
3​
2012​
15​
131​
40​
171​
102​
42​
21​
33​
0​
21​
16​
8​
29​
4​
29​
0​
2​
2011​
16​
112​
45​
157​
78​
31​
10​
30​
2​
15​
13​
7​
26​
3​
32​
0​
2​
2010​
16​
112​
59​
171​
78​
33​
15​
38​
2​
13​
11​
9​
28​
10​
28​
3​
5​
 

TeeKray

Moderator
Mar 1, 2014
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This is the clearest evidence this board has lot the plot, Butcher better then Dixon!!!
Nobody ever said that.

The comparison was made between a guy who we traded in at the cost of two first round draft picks and pay a significant chunk of our salary cap to vs a guy we delisted and who the coach simply did not like or believe in over a long period of time.

Statistically, Dixon only just edges Butcher out, when their relative places within the club's estimations would suggest Dixon should be shitting all over Butcher. Obviously statistics don't tell you everything but they are a vague indication. And watching the majority of games Dixon plays, it's easily arguable that Butcher would provide the same or similar output.
 

Schulzenfest

TheBrownDog
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Nobody ever said that.

The comparison was made between a guy who we traded in at the cost of two first round draft picks and pay a significant chunk of our salary cap to vs a guy we delisted and who the coach simply did not like or believe in over a long period of time.

Statistically, Dixon only just edges Butcher out, when their relative places within the club's estimations would suggest Dixon should be s**tting all over Butcher. Obviously statistics don't tell you everything but they are a vague indication. And watching the majority of games Dixon plays, it's easily arguable that Butcher would provide the same or similar output.
This is not necessarily incorrect, but it is failing to see the forest for the trees.

Dixon's output as a KPF in the era of Bassettball hasn't been much better than a Butcher level player. Nor has the output of Dougal Howard, Justin Westhoff, Paddy Ryder, Jack Watts, Jay Schulz, Todd Marshall, Billy Frampton, or any other poor bugger unlucky enough to be saddled with a KPF role in our forward line. The problem is not that Dixon isn't a better footballer than Butcher. The eye test tells you that he clearly is. The issue is that Bassettball reduces the output of any and every KPF unfortunate enough to be a part of it into that of a Butcher level player.

We haven't had a single player have a 50 goal season since we hired Bassett. Outside of 2017 we haven't even had a 40 goal season. The way we're going this year we might not even have a 30 goal season. And that's a forward line which has at various times included 4 time All-Australian Robbie Gray, 2 time All Australian Chad Wingard and 2 time All-Australian Travis Boak, so we're not talking about a bunch of scrubs here.

Is Charlie Dixon a better footballer than John Butcher? Absolutely.
Could we replace Charlie Dixon with John Butcher in our current side with our current gameplan and not see much of a drop off? Probably, but we could replace peak Wayne Carey with John Butcher in our gameplan and not see much of a drop off. The gameplan is the problem.
 
Last edited:

El_Scorcho

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I've stated repeatedly that under any other coach, Butch would still be on our list as a solid to good 2nd tier 150 gamer.

He played less than 40 games and never played more than 5 games in a row. Was never backed in.

Compare that to the treatment of Ratagoulea at Geelong, who has played 12 games for the ladder leaders averaging 8.7 touches 2.5 marks and 0.7 goals. Good clubs understand that you need to back developing talls in.
 

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