The graveyard thread for endless off topic posturing on persons causing bi-polar responses

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Janus

Dominus Ex Machina
Sep 9, 2007
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Fun fact: The worst Charlie Dixon has played (2019) is the equivalent of the last two years of John Butcher combined when it comes to goals scored, inside 50s, score involvements and goal assists.

There's a reason why he was delisted. He just wasn't very good.
 

Pappagallo

Co(m)poster
Jun 12, 2012
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Fun fact: The worst Charlie Dixon has played (2019) is the equivalent of the last two years of John Butcher combined when it comes to goals scored, inside 50s, score involvements and goal assists.

There's a reason why he was delisted. He just wasn't very good.
Fun fact: Charlie Dixon has never scored more than 5 goals in a game for Port Adelaide. John Butcher on the other hand...
 

Schulzenfest

TheBrownDog
Feb 23, 2008
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Fun fact: The worst Charlie Dixon has played (2019) is the equivalent of the last two years of John Butcher combined when it comes to goals scored, inside 50s, score involvements and goal assists.

There's a reason why he was delisted. He just wasn't very good.
The argument has never been that 2016 model John Butcher was good. The argument was always that he might have been good if he'd been developed properly in previous years, and that we pissed away our chance to find out whether he could have been any good because Ken prefered to pump games into midgets with no upside like Jake Neade and Kane Mitchell instead.

I don't know why I'm bothering to tell you this. You know it already. You've had this argument on this board a thousand times.
 

Kiss from a Rozee

Club Legend
Nov 23, 2018
2,665
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The argument has never been that 2016 model John Butcher was good.
I’m not sure this is an accurate retelling of events. People have definitely argued that 2016 Butcher was good. Probably mostly just because they are doubling down real hard but still.

Jay Schulz was 24 (71 games) when he was effectively thrown on the scrap heap by Richmond.

John Butcher was 24 (31 games) when Port dumped him.

So yes players have shown that little and then come good (even with more opportunities).

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I dunno if I’d agree that Schulz had shown as little as Butcher, but this is a good comparison. Schulz had a massive change in his work ethic after being traded, maybe the same could have happened for Butcher had he been traded?
 

Janus

Dominus Ex Machina
Sep 9, 2007
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The argument has never been that 2016 model John Butcher was good. The argument was always that he might have been good if he'd been developed properly in previous years, and that we pissed away our chance to find out whether he could have been any good because Ken prefered to pump games into midgets with no upside like Jake Neade and Kane Mitchell instead.

I don't know why I'm bothering to tell you this. You know it already. You've had this argument on this board a thousand times.
Ken Hinkley was coach of John Butcher from 2013-2016. He was drafted in 2009.

If he was going to develop into anything, it had to be before 2013. In 2013, he had been on the list for 4 years and was at Billy Frampton 2019 stage. And even then, he was given 8 games in 2013 to see if he had anything. So it wasn't like he didn't get opportunity with Ken.

The thing is - deep down, everyone knows this. That's why whenever Butcher did anything remotely good - the things that any AFL player should be able to do, not just a key forward - people would talk it up as being the second coming...kind of like they did with Frampton this year.

I like John Butcher. I'm sure he's a great guy and could very well have turned into a decent roaming CHF. But he was a victim of a coach and a club that was running on the smell of an oily rag.

Fun fact: Charlie Dixon has never scored more than 5 goals in a game for Port Adelaide. John Butcher on the other hand...
Scored less goals in his entire 31 game career than Dixon did in the 2017 regular season?
 

Honeyboy Wilson

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 26, 2008
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Ken Hinkley was coach of John Butcher from 2013-2016. He was drafted in 2009.

If he was going to develop into anything, it had to be before 2013. In 2013, he had been on the list for 4 years and was at Billy Frampton 2019 stage. And even then, he was given 8 games in 2013 to see if he had anything. So it wasn't like he didn't get opportunity with Ken.
2010 he had back issues so barely played him even at SANFL level.
2011 was his first real year and was eased into it as a young, skinny KPF and when he debuted, he gave the Port supporter base hope, which is the first time they'd felt it all year.
2012 he was played as part of the infamous "Quadrangle of Doom" and in a side that was coached by Primus at the end of his tenture yet still managed to kick 11 goals in 8 games as a 20/21 year old (Todd Marshall kicked 10 goals in 10 games this season).

So a 21 year old KPF who was drafted with back issues had to develop into a star before Ken Hinkley came on board - and giving him "8 games" is enough opportunity under a new coach. Righto.
 

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Schulzenfest

TheBrownDog
Feb 23, 2008
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Ken Hinkley was coach of John Butcher from 2013-2016. He was drafted in 2009.

If he was going to develop into anything, it had to be before 2013.
Before 2013 he had kicked 22 goals from 12 games and was looking so promising that the fan base nicknamed him 'The Future'. And then Ken Hinkley came along and ruined him, just like he's ruined literally every other young key forward he's gotten his hands on bar one good year from Dixon in 2017.

Janus said:
In 2013, he had been on the list for 4 years and was at Billy Frampton 2019 stage. And even then, he was given 8 games in 2013 to see if he had anything.
Wow, 8 games!

We gave Jake Neade 66 games.
 

*PAF

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 17, 2005
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If John Butcher had been drafted to the Gold Coast and Charlie Dixon here, Butch would still be in the league and Charlie would have been delisted in 2015, weighing 87kg and having played most of his career in the ruck.
The stupid part about this post is that no-one can confidently say that it's 100% garbage.
That is really frickin sad.
 

El_Scorcho

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Aug 21, 2007
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It’s garbage, no way would Butcher still be in the AFL no matter where he went.
Bad call. What ultimately cost him his career here was confidence related yips. It's silly to think that he'd have had the same issue at every club and that no other club would have been able to deal with it.

It was still the wrong decision to delist him when we did at the end of 2016.

He came to the worst possible club he could have come to, although nobody could have known that in 2009 when he was drafted. His dad was worried we would stuff up his development because of our downward trajectory and lack of resources. If only his dad had known we'd follow that up with a long term coach who doesn't value key forwards.

We'll see whether we've learned anything by looking at Marshall's treatment this season. So far it looks like we haven't learned shit.
 

Schulzenfest

TheBrownDog
Feb 23, 2008
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It was still the wrong decision to delist him when we did at the end of 2016.
Here is where I disagree with you. It wasn't the wrong decision to delist him at the end of 2016, because by the end of 2016 he was totally mentally cooked as a footballer. But the club doesn't get any credit for that decision, because the club is the reason he was so burnt out in the first place.

In 2011 the club bought a mystery box. From 2013 to 2016 Ken Hinkley gradually set that box on fire without ever bothering to have a proper look inside. We'll never know what could've been in there. But now it's nothing but ash.
 

El_Scorcho

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Here is where I disagree with you. It wasn't the wrong decision to delist him at the end of 2016, because by the end of 2016 he was totally mentally cooked as a footballer. But the club doesn't get any credit for that decision, because the club is the reason he was so burnt out in the first place.

In 2011 the club bought a mystery box. From 2013 to 2016 Ken Hinkley gradually set that box on fire without ever bothering to have a proper look inside. We'll never know what could've been in there. But now it's nothing but ash.
My opinion on it was that he was AFL experienced depth in a position where we haven't developed anyone in memory. His delisting at the same time as Schulz meant that our only recognised key forward was Charlie Dixon, at a time where i'm 100% sure we still felt we should be competing for flags. We've spent significant portions of the 3 years since his delisting playing Ryder as a key forward and dragging Westhoff out of his more useful roles to make him a marking target.

His second to last game was that 20d 11m 4g game. I know it was against a lowly opponent but i've always felt it was worth keeping him on as depth based on that ability being on show. That stat line of 20+ disposals, 11+ marks and 4+ goals has only been achieved by 1 Port player since Butcher, Charlie Dixon, also against the Lions in 2017.
 

Kiss from a Rozee

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Nov 23, 2018
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If John Butcher had been drafted to the Gold Coast and Charlie Dixon here, Butch would still be in the league and Charlie would have been delisted in 2015, weighing 87kg and having played most of his career in the ruck.
The card says moops.

I know what you’re getting at but there is surely no way you actually believe this, particularly given we are talking about the Gold Coast here.

There is no way to prove that this hypothetical is false obviously, but for me Charlie is far more talented than Butcher ever was, and that isn’t a slight on Johnny either.

Dixon has definitely underperformed here, but he is playing under Hinkley as well and actually plays much more defensively than Butcher ever did to top it off. He is an extremely well rounded footballer, and probably the best contested mark in the AFL. Yes he makes bad decisions, and yes he misses shots on goal and drops marks way too often, but I can’t think of a more talented tall at Port Adelaide since Warren Tredrea.

Now would Butcher have succeeded at the Gold Coast? I think he would probably have played a lot more games, and probably had a more successful career likely returning to Melbourne rather than being delisted. I still think he wasn’t good enough and we did the right thing bringing Dixon in and drafting Marshall.

The big question I have is could Butcher have learned to play in the same forward line as Schulz/Dixon? Because that’s the only way it really matters. Because I don’t believe he was ever going to better than either of them (once again, not a slight).

We probably should have made absolutely sure, because as many people love to point out: our forward line has kinda sucked for years. Swapping Neade/SGray out for Butcher clearly wouldn’t have cost us a premiership (since we never won one anyway) but if he had come good maybe we would have.

I basically think that he wasn’t good enough anyway, so to me it doesn’t really matter. I also don’t believe you need two tall forwards to have a high quality forward line, but that’s obviously a controversial opinion.

I think Todd Marshall is absolutely good enough to be a standout key forward. Jack Gunston is a good lead for him to follow, but I think he will he unique. I’m honestly expecting him to have a huge year in 2020 and hopefully he does so we can at least enjoy the Ports favoured 2 pronged forward line for a couple of years with Dixon around.
 

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