The Great Injustice - The Grand Final Contract thread

[flamingEMBERS]

And who's gunna sack them? The clubs want cash just as much as the commission does

Face it, if you want a comp where it's not primarily about generating revenue, watch the wafl

Mate the competition is health as it is. Yes, some of the northern clubs are somewhat struggling off and on field but they are investments. My club is making money, s**t tonnes, if the pleb clubs in Melbourne can't, then GTFO and go somewhere where you can be profitable, the VFL? the VFA? Essendon Suburban leagues? Fitzroy did it, they look quite successful now.

 

[flamingEMBERS]

rfctiger74 why are you so anti-moving the grand final? You have never given your opinion, just why they wont. They wont do it cause of the money. They wont do this. Do you believe they should but they wont? Do you believe that it would be fairer if they did somehow move it every now and then?

I actually don't care how you think the AFL will react. I want to know if you take the money out of it would you support it?

 

[The_Wookie]

It wasn't the 40 consecutive GF's at the MCG that was the real problem of this deal, it was that for 40 years they had to play at least 1 final a week at the MCG. There already was Sydney, West Coast, Brisbane and Adelaide in the league, WCE had made finals in 1988, 1990,1991 and looked like again in 1992 when the deal was signed, Sydney had been there in 1986 and 1987 and they knew Port wanted to get in given the 1990 attempt to put a team in and that WA would get a second side, and they just blindly said yep they can play their finals at the MCG. Introducing the 8 and 2 PF's in 1994 got them out of the s**t for a few years but the 2004 Brisbane home PF at the MCG showed them up for fools.

Its worth noting that the VFL had the MCG deal well before the stadium opened in 1992.

Football Limited (pg 274-275) says that Oakleys long term arrangement was proposed in June 1988. Design work on the Southern Stand began in May 1989, and Construction began in 1990 and was completed in 13 months.

Ross Oakley in The Phoenix Rises says the original offer came from the MCC

An offer came from the MCC (how things had changed!): if we rebuild it, will you be involved? The conversation started along those lines. A letter from me to Cordner dated 8 June 1988 set out the deal. The League agreed to pay $1 million a year during the building process, and a section of the new Daryl Jackson-designed stand would be set aside for our members.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

rfctiger74 why are you so anti-moving the grand final? You have never given your opinion, just why they wont. They wont do it cause of the money. They wont do this. Do you believe they should but they wont? Do you believe that it would be fairer if they did somehow move it every now and then?

I actually don't care how you think the AFL will react. I want to know if you take the money out of it would you support it?

My opinion is irrelevant, because it's never happening.

It's like people talking about going to a twelve team league or a super league. It's just shooting the breeze because it will never happen

that being said, you need to look at os models to see how your vision works.

In the USA there is growing anger about the cost of hosting the Super Bowl. Cities are being questioned more and more as to whether the cost of hosting is worth it. Recent math says cities lose money, every time. This is due to the cost of the hosting rights, cost of security and policing, and of course the cost of the stadium improvements that are demanded every time.

This is my issue, if we are going to change something, it needs to get better. Having perth, Adelaide, or brisbane take a financial hit every year isn't sustainable. I hate tax payers taking it up the arse for one off events.

Melbourne gets away with it because of it being permanent. Lose that, and McC/afl memberships become worth less, which means less money for developing and maintaining the g. Also the govt will tighten its purse strings because it's on the pineapple end of the deal.

also if the gf is played in 40k and 60k stadia, the event officially kills any hope of being one for the members. Most of the crowd will be corporate sponsors, coteries, and premium travel buyers. The days of H11 members going will be dead. I love the stories of people driving across the nulla, or camping at the g prior to ticket release. They only happen however because that's the stuff punters will do to get to the game. Small stadia will kill that though, and that will be sad.

 

[BK Eaglesfan]

Interesting this discussion kicked off over the capacity of the new Perth Stadium. I know the AFL are greedy but whatever your bows on the GF moving from the MCG one day, I believe it's a separate discussion to stadium capacity.

Some of the largest soccer games in the world have been played at sub 80k stadiums including World Cup and Champions League finals. The WC final, a global event only played once every four years, played at stadiums holding in some cases well under the 80k mark. The MCG is one of the largest stadiums in the world (and mostly has college gridiron stadiums for company), so while it is filled for GF's, using that as the 'minimum benchmark' for how large a GF suitable stadium should be is like using a Ferrari as the benchmark for how quick all road going cars should accelerate.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Interesting this discussion kicked off over the capacity of the new Perth Stadium. I know the AFL are greedy but whatever your bows on the GF moving from the MCG one day, I believe it's a separate discussion to stadium capacity.

Some of the largest soccer games in the world have been played at sub 80k stadiums including World Cup and Champions League finals. The WC final, a global event only played once every four years, played at stadiums holding in some cases well under the 80k mark. The MCG is one of the largest stadiums in the world (and mostly has college gridiron stadiums for company), so while it is filled for GF's, using that as the 'minimum benchmark' for how large a GF suitable stadium should be is like using a Ferrari as the benchmark for how quick all road going cars should accelerate.

Thats a point I made above though. move to smaller grounds and it will become like the superbowl. tickets will cost thousands, and it will become the event for corporates, sponsors, and the wealthy.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Thats a point I made above though. move to smaller grounds and it will become like the superbowl. tickets will cost thousands, and it will become the event for corporates, sponsors, and the wealthy.

As opposed to the very cheap deals to go to it currently. About $3k to go to a GF from Perth.

 

[flamingEMBERS]

Thats a point I made above though. move to smaller grounds and it will become like the superbowl. tickets will cost thousands, and it will become the event for corporates, sponsors, and the wealthy.

So everyone outside of Victoria have to pay thousands but Vics shouldn't? It's already for the corporates and wealthy. I've gone to the last 12 grand finals and My team has only been in 3. I love it. However I am willing to go to less grand finals if the AFL membership allocation declines because of rotating Grand Finals. I'm ok with that.

 

[flamingEMBERS]

My opinion is irrelevant, because it's never happening.

It's like people talking about going to a twelve team league or a super league. It's just shooting the breeze because it will never happen

that being said, you need to look at os models to see how your vision works.

In the USA there is growing anger about the cost of hosting the Super Bowl. Cities are being questioned more and more as to whether the cost of hosting is worth it. Recent math says cities lose money, every time. This is due to the cost of the hosting rights, cost of security and policing, and of course the cost of the stadium improvements that are demanded every time.

This is my issue, if we are going to change something, it needs to get better. Having perth, Adelaide, or brisbane take a financial hit every year isn't sustainable. I hate tax payers taking it up the arse for one off events.

Melbourne gets away with it because of it being permanent. Lose that, and McC/afl memberships become worth less, which means less money for developing and maintaining the g. Also the govt will tighten its purse strings because it's on the pineapple end of the deal.

also if the gf is played in 40k and 60k stadia, the event officially kills any hope of being one for the members. Most of the crowd will be corporate sponsors, coteries, and premium travel buyers. The days of H11 members going will be dead. I love the stories of people driving across the nulla, or camping at the g prior to ticket release. They only happen however because that's the stuff punters will do to get to the game. Small stadia will kill that though, and that will be sad.

Your opinion isn't irrelevant, because I'm asking for it.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

As opposed to the very cheap deals to go to it currently. About $3k to go to a GF from Perth.

im talking just for a ticket for a h11 member.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

So everyone outside of Victoria have to pay thousands but Vics shouldn't? It's already for the corporates and wealthy. I've gone to the last 12 grand finals and My team has only been in 3. I love it. However I am willing to go to less grand finals if the AFL membership allocation declines because of rotating Grand Finals. I'm ok with that.

there will be virtually no AFL membership allocation with your plan. After corporates, sponsors, and premium packages, there is barely enough left for a cheersquad at AO or the SCG

you want to corporatize the GF, as is your right. i dont

 

[BulldogJake]

Yeah and when Hawthorn have "Our House, Our Rules" on their banner and blatantly rub the advantage in your face on grand final day, do you think its ok.

Yes my club is successful, we've been up against it from the start no thanks to the governing body and the MCC. a 50-50 record is good but I'd much rather be 6 from 6. The losses still haunt me.

Enough about the past, I'm trying to start a change and bring integrity to the sport. Bring the game to the fans.

Of course there will be travelling teams when the game is played anywhere, but the fact the AFL guarantees that advantage to 10 teams every year is outrageously unfair. We're locked in now, but in 2038 lets break that glass ceiling!

so you're blaming the 3 Grand Final losses on the venue? Lol... I thought this was posted on the Perth Stadium thread but since it isn't, the reality is the 10 teams make up the majority in an 18 team league, no other venue is fit to host the event and in reality your side joined a Victorian competition...

 

[Rob]

*sigh*

Im saying the vic govt WILL spend to keep it. Thats a given because any govt that loses the gf from vic will probably be sacked

What ive been asking is IF the wa govt will be prepared to match and exceed this in the inevitable bidding war. So far only sydney has talked about a bid for the gf, and that was a pretty piss weak tyre kick for headlines.

The afl is all about the dollars, and it will follow them. Personally i tjink the coin wa would.need to pay for a one in five years event is way out of whack with other major events they could be chasing or investing in

Like what? They've already spent a s**t ton of money getting a state of origin game and a bledisloe cup game. An AFL grand final is almost certain to get more tourists than either of those (depending on who's playing of course) - especially the latter, which has become a bit of a non event lately and would be lucky to get a few thousand people flying in for it.
Only other (realistic) events I can think of that would give more prominence would be something like a World Athletics championship. Other, multi city events rarely give much promotion to individual cities.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Like what? They've already spent a s**t ton of money getting a state of origin game and a bledisloe cup game. An AFL grand final is almost certain to get more tourists than either of those (depending on who's playing of course) - especially the latter, which has become a bit of a non event lately and would be lucky to get a few thousand people flying in for it.
Only other (realistic) events I can think of that would give more prominence would be something like a World Athletics championship. Other, multi city events rarely give much promotion to individual cities.

Of course it will attract more, but it will cost more

Do you think that AFL will sell the game for just $5-10m?

 

[Rob]

Of course it will attract more, but it will cost more

Do you think that AFL will sell the game for just $5-10m?

Dunno, but the AFL locked themselves into a long term contract where the Victorian government are paying zero so we won't know. Not for a long time anyway.

Anyway, what are these events that the WA government will get so much more value from?

 

[flamingEMBERS]

so you're blaming the 3 Grand Final losses on the venue? Lol... I thought this was posted on the Perth Stadium thread but since it isn't, the reality is the 10 teams make up the majority in an 18 team league, no other venue is fit to host the event and in reality your side joined a Victorian competition...

Not at all. I definitely ain't. I just don't think that teams should be given a "Privilege" because the play in a city.

We did join a Victorian league but its an Australian league now. In 2037 it will have been an Australian league for 47 years and the Grand Final won't have been played in another Australian city. 2037 there will be stadiums fit.

 

[flamingEMBERS]

there will be virtually no AFL membership allocation with your plan. After corporates, sponsors, and premium packages, there is barely enough left for a cheersquad at AO or the SCG

you want to corporatize the GF, as is your right. i dont

No, There'll be 26,000 less cricket fans at the game.

 

[The_Wookie]

No, There'll be 26,000 less cricket fans at the game.

According to MCC surveys, 93% of its members follow an AFL club.

Membership Statistics

An analysis also shows that while Melbourne is still the most heavily supported AFL team among MCC members, the proportion on the Dees bandwagon has fallen from 23 per cent in 2006 to the present figure of just under 19 per cent.

The big Victorian-based clubs are, unsurprisingly, next in line with the Bombers, Magpies, Blues, Hawks, Cats and Tigers well backed.

Interestingly, more than 7700 members (7.4 per cent) have no team listed. While many of those will genuinely not follow a team (or AFL), we suspect a few of you have slipped through the cracks, so please visit the website or email the club with your nominated team.

And of course as mentioned earlier MCC members dont get free entry to the Grand Final

In 2012 it was reported that under an AFL-enforced levy, the MCC must pay $258 into the gate for every member who attends the match. (In 2011 the fee was $208.) Thats 6.4 million + you have to make up right off the bat.

 

[BK Eaglesfan]

I

Thats a point I made above though. move to smaller grounds and it will become like the superbowl. tickets will cost thousands, and it will become the event for corporates, sponsors, and the wealthy.

The AFL Grand Final is already an event for corporates and sponsors.......and mostly Victorian based AFL or MCC members. For most clubs, even a paid up season ticket holder isn't guaranteed a ticket, let alone more casual fans.

To be honest I'm not anywhere near as wedded to the idea of the Grand Final moving away from the MCG as some. However, with TV rights so crucial to revenue and the sport becoming more and more scheduled around TV, believe any argument around it staying at the MCG based on other stadiums' capacity is the wrong argument.

 

[BK Eaglesfan]

so you're blaming the 3 Grand Final losses on the venue? Lol... I thought this was posted on the Perth Stadium thread but since it isn't, the reality is the 10 teams make up the majority in an 18 team league, no other venue is fit to host the event and in reality your side joined a Victorian competition...

No other venue is 'fit'? Based on what.

As I've said elsewhere I'm not completely pro moving the GF one day (post current MCG contract) but the 'fit stadium' and 'you joined a Victorian competition' is exactly the sort of simplistic defense that gets the back up of many supporters of the 8 clubs who by your logic have no rights because they're the 'minority'.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Dunno, but the AFL locked themselves into a long term contract where the Victorian government are paying zero so we won't know. Not for a long time anyway.

Anyway, what are these events that the WA government will get so much more value from?

They are not paying "zero". The reason for the long term contract was in exchange for the redevelopment work at the g and of course originally the afl allocation in the gss. look at every extension in wookies timeline, the afl always gets something in return.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I


The AFL Grand Final is already an event for corporates and sponsors.......and mostly Victorian based AFL or MCC members. For most clubs, even a paid up season ticket holder isn't guaranteed a ticket, let alone more casual fans.

To be honest I'm not anywhere near as wedded to the idea of the Grand Final moving away from the MCG as some. However, with TV rights so crucial to revenue and the sport becoming more and more scheduled around TV, believe any argument around it staying at the MCG based on other stadiums' capacity is the wrong argument.

Don't disagree, but we still have a relatively large members allocation for the game. If we move to the scg, that allocation will be virtually zero.

There is a difference between it being hard to get a gf ticket to it being impossible

 

[BK Eaglesfan]

Don't disagree, but we still have a relatively large members allocation for the game. If we move to the scg, that allocation will be virtually zero.

There is a difference between it being hard to get a gf ticket to it being impossible

If the GF was actually about supporters of the contesting teams getting in, I'd agree 100%. But it hasn't been for a long time. It's already a corporate money spinning live and TV event.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

If the GF was actually about supporters of the contesting teams getting in, I'd agree 100%. But it hasn't been for a long time. It's already a corporate money spinning live and TV event.

Again, don't disagree. but the members allocation is the only thing stopping it being a 100% tv entertainment event. I'd like to delay that day as long as possible.

 

[Pessimistic]

Getting second teams in each non victorian state stuffed it in terms of success more than the location of the grand final - just look at the results

I see only Eagles 2006 and Sydney 2012 have won a flag since getting a second team in their state, and Port 2004 the only win by a second team

Eagles 1992 1994 Crows 1997 1998 Brisbane 2001 2002 2003 Sydney 2005 are the other wins 7 from 8 against victorian teams