Society/Culture The great myth of higher education value

[Seeds]

A) Arts hardly teaches critical thinking
B) Populism has been around forever, see ridiculous policies like free uni, NBN etc.

Nothing has validated the needs for more Arts grads. Look at the vacuous non entities on the alp front bench, huge amount of arts degrees there.

Populism has been around forever. Its the default of the uneducated that draws on emotional responses such as fear. Education is the only way to create an alternative political movement to populism in a democracy.

There have been issues with poor critical thinking at universities. Not just the students but staff as well. But despite those issues its still the source of advanced critical thinking. Its just that it has problems filtering down to all those at unis who dont undertake it as part of their course.

 

[Seeds]

Depends, big building construction that is unionised pays really well with all the BS perks. But at the opposite end working on new domestic housing the pay is very ordinary.

When you say well what sort of wages are we talking? And not for the uni grads in the construction industry. Just those with tradie degrees?

 

[Seeds]

And they make up a large proportion of those that go on to be builders, project managers and developers where the big coin is. No HECS either.

Only with decades of experience and if they are exceptionally good at what they do. And only a very small percentage will get there. Those with uni degrees in the construction sector can achieve those big dollars in those positions well before they turn 30.

Regardless of how well you do money wise you are still working in s**t conditions doing awful hours.

 

[Kram]

When you say well what sort of wages are we talking? And not for the uni grads in the construction industry. Just those with tradie degrees?

I'd say 100k+

These jobs are quite hard to get though. Also work can be intermittent and get laid off without much notice.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Only with decades of experience and if they are exceptionally good at what they do. And only a very small percentage will get there. Those with uni degrees in the construction sector can achieve those big dollars in those positions well before they turn 30.

Regardless of how well you do money wise you are still working in s**t conditions doing awful hours.

A 22 year old labourer on a union building site in Victoria makes $90k per annum working a 36 hour week with a fortnightly RDO, or makes $130k per annum working the standard 7-5, also with an RDO.

Meanwhile there's a lot of 22 year old graduate engineers, accountants and lawyers working 50 hours a week and getting paid $50k a year. Eventually they might get to $130k at some point in their career, if they're lucky and work for the right place.

 

[Seeds]

A 22 year old labourer on a union building site in Victoria makes $90k per annum working a 36 hour week with a fortnightly RDO, or makes $130k per annum working the standard 7-5, also with an RDO.

Meanwhile there's a lot of 22 year old graduate engineers, accountants and lawyers working 50 hours a week and getting paid $50k a year. Eventually they might get to $130k at some point in their career, if they're lucky and work for the right place.

Um the standard 7-5 is a 35 hour week. They earn 90 on thousand on a 36 hour week but 130 thousand on a 35 hour week? How does that work?

Labour surveys suggests the average construction workers earns around 50 thousand dollars a year. Not the 22 year old. The average worker. You are over inflating it just a tad. Not to mention we are ignoring the fact that construction is back breaking work in horrible conditions and is also physically dangerous. Not something that many people canor want to do for 30 years even if the money is good.

And if you think lawyers, engineers and accountants wages top out at 130 thousand (or even a qtr of a million) you are in for a shock.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Um the standard 7-5 is a 35 hour week.

They earn 90 on thousand on a 36 hour week but 130 thousand on a 35 hour week? How does that work?

7-5 is a ten hour working day. Five days of ten hours equals 50.

This sort of stuff is why nobody believes that you're on $400k per annum.

Labour surveys suggests the average construction workers earns around 50 thousand dollars a year. Not the 22 year old. The average worker. You are over inflating it just a tad. Not to mention we are ignoring the fact that construction is back breaking work in horrible conditions and is also physically dangerous. Not something that many people canor want to do for 30 years even if the money is good.

And if you think lawyers, engineers and accountants wages top out at 130 thousand (or even a qtr of a million) you are in for a shock.

That's funny. I actually work as an engineering manager, so not only do I know how much engineers earn by virtue of being one, but I also know how much lawyers, accountants and labourers earn by virture of working with them. In case of labourers, I even handle the contracts and approve the invoices at the end of each month so I feel I'm pretty up to date on what's what. But don't take my word for it because you too can easily find out how much labourers on union sites earn by looking up the current CFMEU EBA and browsing the rates for yourself. It's very easy, they even provide the weekly wages so you don't have to fluff around with multiplication.

 

[Kram]

Um the standard 7-5 is a 35 hour week. They earn 90 on thousand on a 36 hour week but 130 thousand on a 35 hour week? How does that work?

Labour surveys suggests the average construction workers earns around 50 thousand dollars a year. Not the 22 year old. The average worker. You are over inflating it just a tad. Not to mention we are ignoring the fact that construction is back breaking work in horrible conditions and is also physically dangerous. Not something that many people canor want to do for 30 years even if the money is good.

The other poster is inflating it as in those union jobs are very tough to get but you are going just as badly in the opposite direction. 50 grand is like $24 an hour? Skilled tradesmen like plumbers, electricians and carpenters even doing the lowest end work in housing would still quite easily get into the mid 30s now.

When I was just out of my apprenticeship way back in 2006 (before taking a job in mining instead) I got offered $28 as a sparky in housing and even the meatheads doing the chasing (a job that take like a whole week or 2 to learn) were getting $22.

Also 'horrible' conditions? Please.. maybe if you are some complete fairy scared of breaking a fingernail or little bit of sweat.

 

[Power Raid]

A 22 year old labourer on a union building site in Victoria makes $90k per annum working a 36 hour week with a fortnightly RDO, or makes $130k per annum working the standard 7-5, also with an RDO.

Meanwhile there's a lot of 22 year old graduate engineers, accountants and lawyers working 50 hours a week and getting paid $50k a year. Eventually they might get to $130k at some point in their career, if they're lucky and work for the right place.

equity partners at the big 4 were on around $1m per year in the early 200s. This has dramatically decreased but I'd guess $600k a year.

you only have to look at annual reports to see a CFO or similar level GM accountant is on $350k to $700k before bonuses.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

The other poster is inflating it as in those union jobs are very tough to get but you are going just as badly in the opposite direction. 50 grand is like $24 an hour? Skilled tradesmen like plumbers, electricians and carpenters even doing the lowest end work in housing would still quite easily get into the mid 30s now.

When I was just out of my apprenticeship way back in 2006 (before taking a job in mining instead) I got offered $28 as a sparky in housing and even the meatheads doing the chasing (a job that take like a whole week or 2 to learn) were getting $22.

Also 'horrible' conditions? Please.. maybe if you are some complete fairy scared of breaking a fingernail or little bit of sweat.

Jobs on union sites are no more difficult to get than a job as an accountant or lawyer or any other high paying job that requires a degree. There's also lots of uni graduates who will make the average wage and not a dollar more during their career, probably the same proportion of grads as construction workers who will never leave the subdivisions.

equity partners at the big 4 were on around $1m per year in the early 200s. This has dramatically decreased but I'd guess $600k a year.

you only have to look at annual reports to see a CFO or similar level GM accountant is on $350k to $700k before bonuses.

Fortunately not everybody can be a GM otherwise they wouldn't be paid so much.

 

[Goosecat]

Trade Incomes 2019 Financial Year

Rank	Change	Trade	Income	Change
1	–	Boilermakers	$108,947	-6.2%
2	–	Electricians	$91,455	-0.4%
3	–	Plumbers	$89,568	+3.7%
4	+6	Tilers	$86,048	+15.8%
5	-1	Plasterers	$79,081	-5.3%
6	+2	Carpenters	$77,772	+0.5%
7	–	Cabinetmakers	$74,192	-6.5%
8	+1	Painters	$70,389	-6.3%
9	-4	Bricklayers	$68,634	-17.7%
10	-4	Landscapers	$68,323	-14.8%

Other Trades:

• Air Conditioning – $106,666
• Flooring Contractor – $100,428
• Joiner – $89,500
• Fencing Contractor – $82,500
• Roofing Contractor – $80,340
• Shopfitter – $78,750

HECS Debt: Zero
Income whilst training: 4 years paid

 

[Seeds]

The other poster is inflating it as in those union jobs are very tough to get but you are going just as badly in the opposite direction. 50 grand is like $24 an hour? Skilled tradesmen like plumbers, electricians and carpenters even doing the lowest end work in housing would still quite easily get into the mid 30s now.

When I was just out of my apprenticeship way back in 2006 (before taking a job in mining instead) I got offered $28 as a sparky in housing and even the meatheads doing the chasing (a job that take like a whole week or 2 to learn) were getting $22.

Also 'horrible' conditions? Please.. maybe if you are some complete fairy scared of breaking a fingernail or little bit of sweat.

Its 30 dollar per hours for 35 hour weeks and 48 weeks a year. Thats what survey data suggests is the average wage.

 

[Seeds]

Jobs on union sites are no more difficult to get than a job as an accountant or lawyer or any other high paying job that requires a degree. There's also lots of uni graduates who will make the average wage and not a dollar more during their career, probably the same proportion of grads as construction workers who will never leave the subdivisions.


Fortunately not everybody can be a GM otherwise they wouldn't be paid so much.

This is an american study but the results arent going to be that different here.

A recent study from Georgetown University found that, on average, college graduates earn $1 million more in earnings over their lifetime. Another recent study by the Pew Research Center found that the median yearly income gap between high school and college graduates is around $17,500.Nov 29, 2016

 

[M Malice]

 

[Engimal v3]

Are there really people who don't go to uni??

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

This is an american study but the results arent going to be that different here.

A recent study from Georgetown University found that, on average, college graduates earn $1 million more in earnings over their lifetime. Another recent study by the Pew Research Center found that the median yearly income gap between high school and college graduates is around $17,500.Nov 29, 2016

Yeah I've seen this s**t many times before.

For one, consider that the group of people who never attained anything more than a high school education or less also contains a large portion of adults who are, for want of a better term, complete and utter deadshits who will never amount to anything in life irrespective of where they went to school or what they did after it. The comparison is being skewed by pretending these people have the same abilities as those who went to university. If you want an apt comparison, take the deadshits out of the equation because deadshits more often than not don't succeed in trades either. Unless they're bricklayers, but that's the bottom of the pile of trades anyway.

For two, also think that there's only a limited amount of accountants, lawyers and engineers required in the world and all three of those industries have no trouble finding personnel, so to encourage people to pursue a career that they're not really wanted in instead of pushing them towards careers that are screaming for people (ie. trades) seems highly counter productive. And then we've got those who study one of the myriad of degrees like business management or choose to pursue "careers" like personal training. Many people in one of the aforementioned situations would be better off if they studied a trade rather than pursue a university degree for the sake of a university degree of pursue a dead-end career that won't exist in the next recession.

And all this because society as a whole has been trained almost from birth to look down on trade jobs.

 

[medusala]

Populism has been around forever. Its the default of the uneducated that draws on emotional responses such as fear.

Yet Arts grads are front and centre of the so called climate emergency (and laughable banging on about "science").

And all this because society as a whole has been trained almost from birth to look down on trade jobs.

Not society as a whole. Its extremely common amongst those who studied certain areas that have to look down on tradies because they earn so much less than them

"oh but they are just uneducated bogans". Meanwhile said bogans laugh at the muppets who wasted three years doing a worthless degree.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

My best mate's 18 year old son missed out on an apprenticeship for next year so he'll have to console himself earning $120k a year as a warehouse officer doing a 7/7 roster, fifo from Brisbane.

If he doesn't end up getting that apprenticeship, he'll pretty much have a half a million dollar start on a uni graduate. Will that uni graduate ever catch up to him over their working lives?

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

This is an american study but the results arent going to be that different here.

A recent study from Georgetown University found that, on average, college graduates earn $1 million more in earnings over their lifetime. Another recent study by the Pew Research Center found that the median yearly income gap between high school and college graduates is around $17,500.Nov 29, 2016

I really doubt a lot of stuff you put up on these boards, for me it's displays a real lack of life experience, or as it's so eloquently put in the Navy, you lack CDF (common dog *).

People contribute real life experiences / stories, annecdotes while you contribute random stories / studies that you read and then copy and pasted from somewhere.

 

[Seeds]

I really doubt a lot of stuff you put up on these boards, for me it's displays a real lack of life experience, or as it's so eloquently put in the Navy, you lack CDF (common dog fu**).

People contribute real life experiences / stories, annecdotes while you contribute random stories / studies that you read and then copy and pasted from somewhere.

Because real life stories rarely provide a valid argument. They are a single example told through a biased lense with a faulty memory. I often make the mistake of trying to use them in arguments but they are mistakes. Education has failed you if you believe your real life stories are superior to valid studies. What exactly do you think studies are? The culmination of many real life stories. Actualy often not just stories but actual real events. They are records of things that actually happened. Not biased faulty memories of past events.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Because real life stories rarely provide a valid argument. They are a single example told through a biased lense with a faulty memory. I often make the mistake of trying to use them in arguments but they are mistakes. Education has failed you if you believe your real life stories are superior to valid studies. What exactly do you think studies are? The culmination of many real life stories. Actualy often not just stories but actual real events. They are records of things that actually happened. Not biased faulty memories of past events.

Oh I don't know, Nugs Bunny seemed to have a fair grasp on things instead of your study from another country that is old.

You talk about working conditions and dismiss working outside whereas a hell of a lot of people would think working fulltime in an office is abhorrent.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

Plenty of people with degrees saying "Really has nothing to do with my job now" but are never going to remove it from the resume. Plenty of old people without a degree that are happy or claim to be in the line of work they'll be in until they retire. What there isn't is plenty of young and youngish (under 40) degreeless people dismissing university. People in construction and FIFO etc probably don't love the idea of another 3-5 decades doing it. The cumulative damage builds up. Most "I stayed in Blah industry!" success stories involve moving into an office. If you don't want your body worn down and want something resembling 9-5 Mon-Fri there's limited available without a degree.

 

[Seeds]

Oh I don't know, Nugs Bunny seemed to have a fair grasp on things instead of your study from another country that is old.

You talk about working conditions and dismiss working outside whereas a hell of a lot of people would think working fulltime in an office is abhorrent.

You can dismiss the appropriateness of studies. That is a valid form of argument. That other poster was also using a study to make his case. His study just put up numbers of wages of workers in certain industries. There seems to be a lot inconsistency around these numbers. He also did not compare the wages of those workers with the wages of people with degrees. Which is kind of the point. This debate isnt solved until we have that study. Ive given one from the Usa from 3 years ago (do you honestly think wages have changed all that much from 3 years ago?). But we need some Australian evidence of which no one has provided yet.

I think its more the manual labour side of things that may be fine in your twenties but breaks your body down after multiple decades as we age. Its not fun then and causes serious health problems. Also not fun in 35 degree heat at any age. There are plenty of mind numbing jobs in offices. Most of them dont require degrees. Office jobs with degrees are usually quite stimulating once you have a few years experience and the ones that arent usually pay very high salaries.

 

[Kram]

People in construction and FIFO etc probably don't love the idea of another 3-5 decades doing it. The cumulative damage builds up. Most "I stayed in Blah industry!" success stories involve moving into an office. If you don't want your body worn down and want something resembling 9-5 Mon-Fri there's limited available without a degree.

Guys running the jobs in construction from individual contractors don't have degrees.. Even the leading hands out on site don't do that much actual physical work on big jobs, most of their time is spent organising and walking around holding plans.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

Guys running the jobs in construction from individual contractors don't have degrees.. Even the leading hands out on site don't do that much actual physical work on big jobs, most of their time is spent organising and walking around holding plans.

Plans organised from/sent to their portable office?