Society/Culture The great myth of higher education value

[Anja_Nees]

There are a lot of courses that lead students nowhere and a lot of students who don’t really belong at or need to go to university, so I’m drawn to what the government is trying to achieve.

Many of the things people study as part of an arts degree (history, philosophy, languages) are available elsewhere, often for free, and do not equip students for a career.

Most of us know an arts student who spent a decade a uni only to find they were qualified for life as an academic and nothing else. No issue with guiding people away from their Peter Pan complexes and into streams that might, heaven forbid, lead them to employment.

 

[EasternTiger]

 

[Scotland]

my ex was a lawyer for 7 years piost her degree $495/ hr charge out fee. endless over unpaid over time. quit joined the police 5 years in earning the same money provided its shift work

From the outside looking in it looks like a very two-tiered field.

In most white collar fields you might start on $40-50k a year then gradually work your way up over time. Even the big 4 companies who will do as above and charge out graduates with 5 minutes' experience for $500/hr have a bunch of levels in their hierarchies and you can make good money fairly quickly. Law tends to have a huge emphasis on the equity partner thing.

 

[truedemon]

From the outside looking in it looks like a very two-tiered field.

In most white collar fields you might start on $40-50k a year then gradually work your way up over time. Even the big 4 companies who will do as above and charge out graduates with 5 minutes' experience for $500/hr have a bunch of levels in their hierarchies and you can make good money fairly quickly. Law tends to have a huge emphasis on the equity partner thing.

they do then after 10/12 years they crack the 100k
what other fields of any class hire people out at $500/hr
not even specialist doctors or mining engineers are charged out at that much by a company. i know the mining mines are ar

 

[Scotland]

they do then after 10/12 years they crack the 100k
what other fields of any class hire people out at $500/hr
not even specialist doctors or mining engineers are charged out at that much by a company. i know the mining mines are ar

10/12 years to get from $50k to $100k in a professional field is a bit of a disaster.

One of my friends worked for a big 4 firm as a graduate analyst and fell under their consulting banner. He got paid $41k and was charged out at $500/hr.

 

[Evolved1]

There are a lot of courses that lead students nowhere and a lot of students who don’t really belong at or need to go to university, so I’m drawn to what the government is trying to achieve.

Many of the things people study as part of an arts degree (history, philosophy, languages) are available elsewhere, often for free, and do not equip students for a career.

Most of us know an arts student who spent a decade a uni only to find they were qualified for life as an academic and nothing else. No issue with guiding people away from their Peter Pan complexes and into streams that might, heaven forbid, lead them to employment.

While true, I know engineering graduates who've found employment at places like JB Hi-Fi and Harvey Norman.

Tertiary education is now the baseline, with many employers expecting post-grad education and/or industry experience just to get your foot in the door.

 

[Snake_Baker]

SO unbelievably TRUE!

 

[Anja_Nees]

While true, I know engineering graduates who've found employment at places like JB Hi-Fi and Harvey Norman.

Tertiary education is now the baseline, with many employers expecting post-grad education and/or industry experience just to get your foot in the door.

That’s certainly true. Have to query the numbers and whether there are jobs at the end (although one is guessing to an extent).

Law is a classic. A few years ago there were 60,000 lawyers in the country and 15,000 law graduates a year. Nowhere near enough jobs, yet uni places were expanded, not contracted.

Some use the qualification for other things, but there are plenty of disillusioned people who can’t get a gig and have the added insult of a massive HECS debt. This new policy may dissuade people from taking up a course with no future.

That said, at least engineering and law teach things that you must know to enter a career. Most humanities courses not so much.

 

[Anja_Nees]

From the outside looking in it looks like a very two-tiered field.

In most white collar fields you might start on $40-50k a year then gradually work your way up over time. Even the big 4 companies who will do as above and charge out graduates with 5 minutes' experience for $500/hr have a bunch of levels in their hierarchies and you can make good money fairly quickly. Law tends to have a huge emphasis on the equity partner thing.

Honestly there’s very little scope for equity partnership at the moment. Law is fine for most after about four to five years these days, but it takes that long to develop any serious competence.

There’s a dramatic oversupply or grads and first years and the firms know it, so there’s no incentive to pay more. People ditch firms en masse at about three years and then the leverage switches. The trick for many is getting experience.

Plenty of people who stay at it do fine. If you find your way to equity partnership that’s great and obviously very lucrative but that can be as little at 15-20% of partnership at a firm these days. Don’t think too many really bank on it and plenty utterly flagellate themselves trying before just doing something else.

 

[Scotland]

Whether uni, TAFE/tech/whatever that's called now there's always a trade off between how much demand there is for certain professions, how well they pay, how stable the field is etc.

Teaching, nursing etc. needs a critical mass. There's something like 30-35,000 nurses in WA and that's really dependent on population. It's not like it's a boom bust industry like engineering and construction where you'll need 10k one year and 40k the next. Jobs created in that field are mostly just a natural replacement rate. The pay has also been low as long as I can remember.

You can graduate in engineering or finish a bricklaying apprenticeship etc. and struggle to find work depending on the what the economy is doing. A lot of it is just down to timing and luck. If you were studying around 2008/9 when the GFC hit and graduated 2010/11 you probably hit the mining boom 2.0 wave in WA. If you finished in 2008 then you walked into a s**t storm. But it's not the same as getting a Masters in classical music which is a niche field.

A good example for young guys is sports media/admin/science roles. Everyone wants to be the head trainer at an AFL club or calling games on TV etc. but there are so few roles available and the majority of media stuff goes to ex-players who can't even spell 'journalist'. Everyone I know that studied sports science went on to do post grad to become a physio, did a dip Ed and became a sports teacher or worked in a different field.

 

[Kram]

A good example for young guys is sports media/admin/science roles. Everyone wants to be the head trainer at an AFL club or calling games on TV etc. but there are so few roles available and the majority of media stuff goes to ex-players who can't even spell 'journalist'. Everyone I know that studied sports science went on to do post grad to become a physio, did a dip Ed and became a sports teacher or worked in a different field.

 

[medusala]

If you had an educated policy background - a branch within humanities - you'd know this. The irony.

I did two Arts subjects. A monumental waste of time. Class full of well off kids who wanted to get drunk but lacked the effort (and often ability) to do a decent degree. History and languages had some smart types but then you would expect that.

The problem with Humanities degrees is that govts were so determined to get kids in to uni that they dumbed down the offering with unimaginably useless degrees. Peace studies, gender studies blah blah. Ditto their determination to get fee paying os students in and not let them fail.

I'll say one thing about university in general though - too many incompetent people pass. The standards need to be higher, which will improve the quality of graduates and simultaneously increase the value of the degree. It might also reduce the debt that won't ever be repaid to government a little. There's a risk it becomes an elitist thing, but at the end of the day, it is. Not everyone is cut out for university level education, and will probably be better served putting their time and effort into something else.

Common sense. Pity govts refuse to see it.

 

[CatFan79]

SO unbelievably TRUE!

Bit over the top. Think of the valuable research that comes from science fields, I have a computer science degree and am doing great..

The govt are increasing course fees from the faculties where the twits preach leftist bullshit aren't they?

 

[Snake_Baker]

Bit over the top. Think of the valuable research that comes from science fields, I have a computer science degree and am doing great..

The govt are increasing course fees from the faculties where the twits preach leftist bullshit aren't they?

I was referring to universities being a production line for close minded morons, and I agree with you 100% that the majority arise from the HaSS/arts degree related fields.

How?

The HaSS/arts degree types are grossly over represented in university administration. They have taken over the thought machinery and dictating the shaping of young minds in their own image.

 

[truedemon]

I did two Arts subjects. A monumental waste of time. Class full of well off kids who wanted to get drunk but lacked the effort (and often ability) to do a decent degree. History and languages had some smart types but then you would expect that.

The problem with Humanities degrees is that govts were so determined to get kids in to uni that they dumbed down the offering with unimaginably useless degrees. Peace studies, gender studies blah blah. Ditto their determination to get fee paying os students in and not let them fail.



Common sense. Pity govts refuse to see it.

its easier to control a dumbed down society.
leftism is the barometer for that

 

[utility]

10/12 years to get from $50k to $100k in a professional field is a bit of a disaster.

One of my friends worked for a big 4 firm as a graduate analyst and fell under their consulting banner. He got paid $41k and was charged out at $500/hr.

4k/day for a graduate? I know of people with higher charge-out rates but not for grads. I'd expect closer to 2k.

 

[Scotland]

4k/day for a graduate? I know of people with higher charge-out rates but not for grads. I'd expect closer to 2k.

Pretty crazy really.