Society/Culture The great myth of higher education value

[ShanDog]

It will be something that is dealt with lecturer by lecturer. Some were ******* hopeless, many could be approached and effective and one particular lecturer was brutal about it.

Instutionally it isn't dealt with at all. More highly reliant on fee revenue as years pass.

Yep, I've had a mixed bag in that regard. Some lecturers gave individual grades to people within a group assignment, but many gave the same marks. Was nearly tempted to email them about exactly what each person contributed a couple of times in that scenario.

 

[Kwality]

It will be something that is dealt with lecturer by lecturer. Some were ******* hopeless, many could be approached and effective and one particular lecturer was brutal about it.

Instutionally it isn't dealt with at all. More highly reliant on fee revenue as years pass.

& therein lies the quandary that is the value of todays higher education - addressed by the employer.

 

[basashi]

In my view the core problem with tertiary education in Australia is this:

When they finally let smart poor kids go to uni it should have been to the exclusion of rich dumb kids. but it wasn't.

trying to keep rich dumb kids in the system has f@##$d everything up.

 

[Kwality]

In my view the core problem with tertiary education in Australia is this:

When they finally let smart poor kids go to uni it should have been to the exclusion of rich dumb kids. but it wasn't.

trying to keep rich dumb kids in the system has f@##$d everything up.

Are there any standards in education these days? Its a big FAIL across all levels but we can be sure no one has dropped the ball, KPIs what are they? Lets argue about rich & poor, stuff the kids education.

 

[Gethelred]

Are there any standards in education these days? Its a big FAIL across all levels but we can be sure no one has dropped the ball, KPIs what are they? Lets argue about rich & poor, stuff the kids education.

I'd argue at least some of it is due to being results/jobs driven degrees.

Education, especially university education, has always been about teaching the right thought processes for educating oneself, so that the student became able to learn whatever they put their mind to in future. 'Give a man a fish, eat for a day; teach him to fish, he'll eat for the rest of his life' and all that.

Now, the entry barrier to getting a degree is lower (more places, lower ATAR required to get into some degrees that used to be very limited in position and much harder to complete) and the quality of the degrees are decreasing. Law is the new Arts, in that it's now not a specific degree catered to sending you into the legal profession, but a broad base from which to educate yourself for a world in the workplace.

You've also got the more prestigious unis like the University of Melbourne teaching to the exam, and improved test-taking allowing students not to learn the subject matter if expertise is required. At the end of their time at uni, these students haven't learned much if at all, with their only real skill being cramming; if their degree is technical (like medicine/engineering/architecture) they will need one hell of a lot of in job learning to compensate.

Then you've got the increasingly competitive jobs market, one in which possessing a degree is not simply necessary. And the jobs which are technical in nature acknowledge the inadequacy of most graduates, insisting either on internships or experience in the industry in order to employ someone; what was an entry level position is inundated with applicants.

Then throw in the sheer number of bought and paid for degrees as Australia's greatest export, and some of them migrating and becoming citizens; generally, these people are the wealthy, as the visa restrictions limiting hours of work are intense, and mean that unless some work is paid under the table they must be receiving money from home in order to complete the degree (accommodation/food paid for from home and/or the degree itself).

I lived with one of the rare exceptions to the rule. He was a young bloke out of Bangladesh, and he'd graduated as an electrical engineer from one of the unis in Melbourne. This was one of the most determined people I've ever met in my entire life; he paid his own way through the degree, sleeping maybe 10 hours a week whilst riding his bike from Footscray to Brighton to Eltham (to work 2 different hospitality jobs and home) whilst riding to La Trobe uni. Dude was stone cold, but was genuinely one of the nicest people I've ever met. Most grads aren't like this, and these are the sort of people I'd be proud to have come here and become Australian, but despite how hard he was willing to work it took him almost 4 years to get a job in his field.

It is as much who you know as what you know. I suppose it was always that way, but it seems to be getting worse as competitiveness for positions ramps up. Now you have degrees ill preparing people for the jobs they're supposedly catering them for, coupled with increased competition and increased barriers to entry within industry leading to this kind of questioning the role of the degree in a modern context.

 

[Kwality]

about teaching the right thought processes for educating oneself, so that the student became able to learn whatever they put their mind to in future.

I've long heard about university being a lifes experience, reality its academias version of an apprenticeship.
A dud is still a dud.

Encouraging kids to think, to explore needs be a KPI of any teacher , but I fear its not.

 

[Pessimistic]

The product of peter costellos mini baby boom will start entering tertiary next year. Most high schools have been running an extra form each year (an eighth at my daughters school)

lets hope the feds own this as its of their making. A fair reason to adjust immigration down slightly too

 

[Kwality]

The product of peter costellos mini baby boom will start entering tertiary next year. Most high schools have been running an extra form each year (an eighth at my daughters school)

lets hope the feds own this as its of their making. A fair reason to adjust immigration down slightly too

Seeing any signs of the steadily sliding education standards? Literacy OK?

Australian students slip in global maths, reading and science rankings

A worldwide study of more than half a million 15-year-olds shows Australian students lag 3.5 years behind their Chinese counterparts in maths — and their performance in all three major subjects is in long-term decline.

www.abc.net.au

Maths? Science?
Maths and science results in Australian schools have collapsed despite government spending on schools hitting nearly $58 billion a year, 70 per cent more than when global school testing started.

Australia has dropped to "average" in the OECD for the first time, compared with "above average" for the previous two decades, results from the Program for International Student Assessment ...

Australian maths students fall years behind China

Maths and science results in Australian schools have collapsed despite government spending on schools hitting nearly $58 billion a year.

www.afr.com

Dont worry about immigration, we are letting our kids down big time !!

 

[Pessimistic]

Maybe those other countries are spending more? Just athought

 

[Kwality]

Maybe those other countries are spending more? Just athought

& IF they are not?

“Money is not the issue because Estonia was the top-performing country in reading and science and they spend half as much money per student as Australia.”

Australian students' maths performance falls to OECD average in worst result since 2000

Dan Tehan says results ‘should have alarm bells ringing’ but pushes responsibility on to states

www.theguardian.com

 

[Kwality]

Teachers have the biggest impact on student learning outside of family and home influences. Looking at Hong Kong and Singapore, we can improve teaching effectiveness by better attracting high achievers to teaching and providing better career and development support.

The top ranking education systems in the world aren't there by accident. Here's how Australia can climb up

Hong Kong, Singapore and other high performing countries did not improve their education system by chance. They did it by design. And we can do it too, writes Julie Sonnemann.

www.abc.net.au

Are we prepared to make a call on family and home influences OR just cave in to throwing more money?

Royal Commission covering every dollar in Govt education spending?

 

[Pessimistic]

Is the inference we need to spend less to get better outcomes?

have any of these educations systems gone completely computerised?

seems crazy in this day and age exams are still written. It cant be cost any more cos electronics are dirt cheap

 

[Pessimistic]

Heres another curveball. Im betting some of these high achieving nations are are largely state rather than private education
is that where the high costings come in?

 

[Seeds]

Staggering. So much for the myth that education spending is an "investment". The obvious question is why is so much wasted on degrees that provide no benefit to the taxpayer and society?

Monumental waste of cash at a time of supposed "austerity". Why should the working class pay income tax so Jacinta and Tarquin can do a Bachelor of Arts in peace and conflict studies?

Its simply taking from the poor and giving to the rich. Who could possibly support that?

http://www.independent.co.uk/studen...nt-institute-for-fiscal-studies-a7824016.html

Most graduates will still be paying off student loans into their 50s, and three-quarters will never clear the debt, a new probe has found.



http://www.spu.ac.ke/spu-academics/...or-of-arts-in-peace-and-conflict-studies.html

Given the rise of uneducated populism across the west I think we clearly have proof now why these art courses are a value to society. Maybe they should become mandatory?

 

[Mofra]

Heres another curveball. Im betting some of these high achieving nations are are largely state rather than private education
is that where the high costings come in?

Two-tier systems often have a huge inefficiency factor.
e.g. the US healthcare system spend a huge amount per capita and it's effectively not universal.
The fight between private/religious vs state school funding in Australia is pretty heated and is clearly not delivering what it is supposed to.

 

[Kwality]

Its the poor standards resulting that need to be examined, lets not let the church /state tub thumpers turn these results in another opportunity to regurgititate the bloody obvious (select your own version).

We have been going backwards for sometime, chucking more money at it doesnt seem to work.

Only reading maths & science were measured - what % of the students hours are spent on these subjects in Aus v say Singapore?

 

[medusala]

Given the rise of uneducated populism across the west I think we clearly have proof now why these art courses are a value to society. Maybe they should become mandatory?

Woeful attempt at trolling. Level expected of someone with a B. Origami.

 

[medusala]

We have been going backwards for sometime, chucking more money at it doesnt seem to work.

Poms improved quite a bit by making policy changes (despite teachers vehemently opposing them)

 

[Seeds]

Woeful attempt at trolling. Level expected of someone with a B. Origami.

Im serious. Critical thinking, politics and more history needs to become mandatory so populism never happens again. The last three years have validated and reinforced the need for more art course teaching.

 

[Kwality]

Im serious. Critical thinking, politics and more history needs to become mandatory so populism never happens again. The last three years have validated and reinforced the need for more art course teaching.

At the very least the results need to critically analysed:

Australian states and territories just need to look to the ACT, which rated exceptionally well, he said.

“The ACT performed very well. Compared to the global ranking, reading would be No.3 in the world. Science would be fifth in the world and when you look at maths, maths is sliding so it would be 15th,” he said.

“My argument is, don’t just compare with China and other countries, we’ve got a good example in Australia.

“The success of the ACT provides a good example for other states and territories.”

‘It’s a disaster’: Teachers under fire as PISA results sends parents reeling

Australia must raise the ATAR score for those wanting to study education if it is to catch-up in the international education stakes, advocates say.

thenewdaily.com.au

 

[Bomberboyokay]

Given the rise of uneducated populism across the west I think we clearly have proof now why these art courses are a value to society. Maybe they should become mandatory?

Im serious. Critical thinking, politics and more history needs to become mandatory so populism never happens again. The last three years have validated and reinforced the need for more art course teaching.

Right wing nut jobs (medusala) despise higher education as the more people get the less conservative they become. Doesn't have to be Arts. The most conservative seats in Australia are those where more people stop at Year 12 or lower.

 

[Kwality]

Right wing nut jobs (medusala) despise higher education as the more people get the less conservative they become. Doesn't have to be Arts. The most conservative seats in Australia are those where more people stop at Year 12 or lower.

This is too important an issue for political clowns to use it as a plaything, you lot are part of the problem, get out of the way, all you've got to offer is 'the other mob .... blah blah blah !'

Take off those glasses you see life thru.

 

[Seeds]

This is too important an issue for political clowns to use it as a plaything, you lot are part of the problem, get out of the way, all you've got to offer is 'the other mob .... blah blah blah !'

Take off those glasses you see life thru.

Deflection. Fact is fact. Most populists are not well educated.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

This is too important an issue for political clowns to use it as a plaything, you lot are part of the problem, get out of the way, all you've got to offer is 'the other mob .... blah blah blah !'

Take off those glasses you see life thru.

Deflection. Fact is fact. Most populists are not well educated.

Nationalism doesn't work well on people who've been through enough study to know The Others don't cause their problems.

i.e. Brexit polls s**t with under 40s in Medusalaland because they've gone through more education than grey-haired people.

 

[Kwality]

Nationalism doesn't work well on people who've been through enough study to know The Others don't cause their problems.

i.e. Brexit polls s**t with under 40s in Medusalaland because they've gone through more education than grey-haired people.

Why are you wandering off topic with this political dross, education doesnt need people pushing their own barrow. Have you got another agenda, something you need to hide in the education area, a skeleton, a vested interest ....