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The Greens

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I don't feel that the Israel Palestine conflict had much to do with the greens losing seats.

Bandt had redistribution that hurt him and the 2 brisbane seats had the lib vote collapse and turned them into lab vs gre compared to lib vs gre.
 
But they supported it eventually. They knew it was good policy- and helped achieve the Greens own stated goals.
The HAFF wasn't a good policy because affordable housing is an expense that should be outlaid right now, as it's an emergency right now. The only other government expense that uses a fund mechanism is the Future Fund, which makes sense as it's a long-term need with a relatively small payout each year, so the funds invested have time to accumulate and compound. This is completely unsuitable for an immediate expense because the funds do not have sufficient time to compound to a good level. Otherwise, why doesn't the government just use this method for every expense, like defence spending?

The Greens' stated goals were around public housing, not social housing which is an inferior product. Specifically, the goal was to build up to 1 million homes over 20 years. The HAFF doesn't come anywhere near achieving such a goal.

They chose to pass it anyway because it was what was on the table, and they had been subject to an avalanche of criticism in the media for not instantly agreeing to the shitty initial plan and asking Labor to negotiate, which Labor refused to do for months. So the Greens took what they could get, even if it wasn't very good.

What was the point of the delay again?
The delay got Labor to remove their cap of $500m per year in distribution to social housing and make it a floor instead, and supply more initial funding to start the program. It isn't ideal, but it's better than the initial idea which would have been a drop in the ocean of what is required for true housing affordability.

Therein lies the problem.

Most people see it as a complex issue of competing rights. The Greens see one side and excommunicate anyone who disagrees.

That was my point about the Greens. Ideologues.
Right. Would you tolerate racism, sexism and homophobia in a political party? If you wouldn't, maybe that makes you an ideologue too. Once upon a time people would have condemned you for not agreeing that Aboriginals are inferior to white people, women shouldn't work after marriage and gay people are morally depraved threats to children.

They rubber stamped 10 renewables projects for every 1 coal/gas...
Do you understand how climate change works? Any new coal project is a disaster, and new gas projects should be limited and subject to very stringent controls, not the open season on drilling and fracking that Labor have allowed. Plibersek made a deal with the Greens for an environmental watchdog to scrutinise such projects, and Albanese came in over the top and killed it because he didn't want to lose those sweet mining industry donations.

All of them?
Name one. It should be very easy.

I'm a millennial....
Congratulations, you're getting old early!

Virtually all Jews see Israel as a legitimate country, and many of them see the country of Israel as a core part of their identity.
Great. That does not give Israel a free pass to kill as many innocent people as they like, and it does not make a criticism of Israel an attack on Jewish Australians.

When you call for the destruction of that country, you are being antisemitic.
No, you're not. Demanding a state be run for all those living within it, rather than just those of one religion, is demanding equality over fascism. Israel has now made a two-state solution impossible with their repeated theft of land in the West Bank, so the only solutions left are a one-state solution with equal rights and respect for all, or an apartheid regime where Jews can steal whatever land they desire and the Palestinians are kept in open-air prison camps and bombed periodically. The Greens do not want the second solution, so they are asking for the first. If that's anti-semitic, then the term has no valid meaning anymore. By the way, the Palestinians are Semites.

Let me be very clear.

“End the war in Gaza” = NOT antisemitic.

“From the river to the sea” = antisemitic.
You know Likud has "from the sea to the river" in their founding charter, right? But I guess that's fine and dandy. The concept of a state where people are treated equally regardless of religion or ethnicity though, oh no, that's racist.

Attending rallies with chants of “from the river to the sea” and not calling it out = antisemitic.

Obsessing over Islamophobia and not giving comparable airtime to antisemitism = antisemitic.
Nope, bullshit.

Cosying up to one ethnic/religious group and completely ignoring another = stoking social divisions.
You know there are Jews in the Greens, right? They ran Campbell Gome, a Jewish Australian man, in a winnable seat in the last Victorian state election. It's complete nonsense to say they completely ignore Jews, they just won't coddle Israel the way the majors do.

Looking at the other parties, I don't know of any Palestinians in the Liberals, and the only Palestinian Labor politician I know of was told to leave because she wouldn't accept Labor's cowardly stance on the genocide. So who is completely ignoring whom?

(Especially when the 2nd group is being persecuted in our own country).
When was the last race riot against Jews in Australia? Cronulla in 2005 was a race riot against Arabs.
 
The HAFF wasn't a good policy because affordable housing is an expense that should be outlaid right now, as it's an emergency right now. The only other government expense that uses a fund mechanism is the Future Fund, which makes sense as it's a long-term need with a relatively small payout each year, so the funds invested have time to accumulate and compound. This is completely unsuitable for an immediate expense because the funds do not have sufficient time to compound to a good level. Otherwise, why doesn't the government just use this method for every expense, like defence spending?

The Greens' stated goals were around public housing, not social housing which is an inferior product. Specifically, the goal was to build up to 1 million homes over 20 years. The HAFF doesn't come anywhere near achieving such a goal.

They chose to pass it anyway because it was what was on the table, and they had been subject to an avalanche of criticism in the media for not instantly agreeing to the shitty initial plan and asking Labor to negotiate, which Labor refused to do for months. So the Greens took what they could get, even if it wasn't very good.


The delay got Labor to remove their cap of $500m per year in distribution to social housing and make it a floor instead, and supply more initial funding to start the program. It isn't ideal, but it's better than the initial idea which would have been a drop in the ocean of what is required for true housing affordability.


Right. Would you tolerate racism, sexism and homophobia in a political party? If you wouldn't, maybe that makes you an ideologue too. Once upon a time people would have condemned you for not agreeing that Aboriginals are inferior to white people, women shouldn't work after marriage and gay people are morally depraved threats to children.


Do you understand how climate change works? Any new coal project is a disaster, and new gas projects should be limited and subject to very stringent controls, not the open season on drilling and fracking that Labor have allowed. Plibersek made a deal with the Greens for an environmental watchdog to scrutinise such projects, and Albanese came in over the top and killed it because he didn't want to lose those sweet mining industry donations.


Name one. It should be very easy.


Congratulations, you're getting old early!


Great. That does not give Israel a free pass to kill as many innocent people as they like, and it does not make a criticism of Israel an attack on Jewish Australians.


No, you're not. Demanding a state be run for all those living within it, rather than just those of one religion, is demanding equality over fascism. Israel has now made a two-state solution impossible with their repeated theft of land in the West Bank, so the only solutions left are a one-state solution with equal rights and respect for all, or an apartheid regime where Jews can steal whatever land they desire and the Palestinians are kept in open-air prison camps and bombed periodically. The Greens do not want the second solution, so they are asking for the first. If that's anti-semitic, then the term has no valid meaning anymore. By the way, the Palestinians are Semites.


You know Likud has "from the sea to the river" in their founding charter, right? But I guess that's fine and dandy. The concept of a state where people are treated equally regardless of religion or ethnicity though, oh no, that's racist.


Nope, bullshit.


You know there are Jews in the Greens, right? They ran Campbell Gome, a Jewish Australian man, in a winnable seat in the last Victorian state election. It's complete nonsense to say they completely ignore Jews, they just won't coddle Israel the way the majors do.

Looking at the other parties, I don't know of any Palestinians in the Liberals, and the only Palestinian Labor politician I know of was told to leave because she wouldn't accept Labor's cowardly stance on the genocide. So who is completely ignoring whom?


When was the last race riot against Jews in Australia? Cronulla in 2005 was a race riot against Arabs.
Well there’s a bit of common sense and reality. Great reading it. Thanks mate.
 

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I understand the depth of the hatred for the Greens by some, but having your primary vote shrink by less than half a percent in the House of Reps is hardly a spectacular collapse. It is simply due to the Wills/Melbourne redistribution and the disaffected Lib voter in those four Greens seats flocking to the ALP instead of the Greens (understandably), as the primary reason for the Greens possibly ending up with 0 in the House of Reps, not a repudiation of their obstructionism or anti-Israeli stance or wokeism or whatever political agenda you subscribe to.

They are near certain to have 6 Senators, which would have been their primary aim especially since the ALP have a substantial majority government. Even if Bandt survived in Melbourne, he would have had little influence in the House.

The Greens may also be better off having a different leader anyway, think Bandt has reached his use-by date.
The failure of the Greens to win more votes should be concerning. Are the Greens interested in self-reflection or do they view their ability to attract robust opposition as a badge of honor?

The LNP is leaking votes and they're not going to the Greens.

Wokeism and the pro-Islam stance is a big factor. Every man and his dog favors environment causes and public healthcare.
 
The failure of the Greens to win more votes should be concerning. Are the Greens interested in self-reflection or do they view their ability to attract robust opposition as a badge of honor?

The LNP is leaking votes and they're not going to the Greens.

Wokeism and the pro-Islam stance is a big factor. Every man and his dog favors environment causes and public healthcare.

It depends on their future goal. Obviously the goal of every party is to win as many seats as possible but for something like the Greens, moving towards a serious contender for government might involve abandoning their base (the left) and could result in being like the Australian Democrats where leaving behind their core principles to exert influence on government eventually caused their downfall.

The political reality may simply be the Greens can never form government because the Australian population really isn't that left wing and traditional conservative voters flock to the ALP when the Libs are unelectable.

They may have to be content with occupying the left - in our political system, getting double digit percentages every election should be considered quite decent, no other minor party does that.
 
Thanks for confirming my suspicions- that the Greens are a bunch of fundamentalist ideologues, incapable of pragmatism, who see everything in black and white. Shades of grey not allowed.
Thanks for confirming you can't rebut my points, and are still sticking to your preconceived notions regardless of what evidence is presented to you. People believe what they want to believe, evidently.
 
having your primary vote shrink by less than half a percent in the House of Reps is hardly a spectacular collapse.
Of course it’s not a collapse, but it is kind of concerning when you look at the votes they are leaving on the table

they should absolutely be grabbing a bigger share of the flood of votes that are going to teal candidates, and it’s a pretty reasonable question to ask why they’re not

If they can’t formulate a platform that appeals to these voters it’s going to be hard for them to move past their current vote share unless Labor completely implode at some point
 
As promised....

Virtually all Jews see Israel as a legitimate country, and many of them see the country of Israel as a core part of their identity.

Many Jews think Netanyahu is a war-mongering idiot, believe Israel is guilty of human rights abuses, and think the West Bank settlements should stop immediately. But they all support the existence of the country itself. It’s the only Jewish majority country.

When you call for the destruction of that country, you are being antisemitic.

Let me be very clear.

“End the war in Gaza” = NOT antisemitic.

“From the river to the sea” = antisemitic.

Attending rallies with chants of “from the river to the sea” and not calling it out = antisemitic.

Obsessing over Islamophobia and not giving comparable airtime to antisemitism = antisemitic.

Cosying up to one ethnic/religious group and completely ignoring another = stoking social divisions.

(Especially when the 2nd group is being persecuted in our own country).
Obsessing over antisemitism and not giving comparable airtime to Islamophobia = Islamophobic.

How would you say both the major parties fared on this basis over the last 18 months?
 

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Most people, like me, voted for parties that got way more than 12% of the vote....

The Greens have 11 senate seats but they lost some relevance on Saturday.

Who needs to reflect? Maybe Bandt and co...

You’re a duopoly fan then.

What relevance do lower house seats have when Labor hold the majority?
 
Of course it’s not a collapse, but it is kind of concerning when you look at the votes they are leaving on the table

they should absolutely be grabbing a bigger share of the flood of votes that are going to teal candidates, and it’s a pretty reasonable question to ask why they’re not

If they can’t formulate a platform that appeals to these voters it’s going to be hard for them to move past their current vote share unless Labor completely implode at some point

Maybe it's simply that they are too progressive for the teal voters? Far more palatable to vote for effectively a Liberal Party member with sensible views on climate change and LGBT+ issues, for example, while still economically conservative.

I don't see how the Greens can capture the teal base while still keeping their integrity as an actual left wing party.
 
Maybe it's simply that they are too progressive for the teal voters? Far more palatable to vote for effectively a Liberal Party member with sensible views on climate change and LGBT+ issues, for example, while still economically conservative.

I don't see how the Greens can capture the teal base while still keeping their integrity as an actual left wing party.
Who said anything about the Greens capturing the teal base?

There are plenty of electorates where the teal vote is coming partially at the expense of Labor and the Greens, it’s a big question as to why this is the case.

The Greens’ stated goal is to become a party of government and if that is the case they need to find a way to get those votes. Especially when a huge chunk of teal voters are voting that way because they are environmentally motivated.
 

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Of course it’s not a collapse, but it is kind of concerning when you look at the votes they are leaving on the table

they should absolutely be grabbing a bigger share of the flood of votes that are going to teal candidates, and it’s a pretty reasonable question to ask why they’re not

If they can’t formulate a platform that appeals to these voters it’s going to be hard for them to move past their current vote share unless Labor completely implode at some point
Probably because they have different economic and social policies compared to the Teal independents. The Teals are just Liberals who understand climate science, yeah the Greens agree with them about environmental matters but on other matters they likely have quite varied policies. I'm not sure why anyone would think ex-LNP voters would vote for the Greens.
 
Who said anything about the Greens capturing the teal base?

There are plenty of electorates where the teal vote is coming partially at the expense of Labor and the Greens, it’s a big question as to why this is the case.

The Greens’ stated goal is to become a party of government and if that is the case they need to find a way to get those votes. Especially when a huge chunk of teal voters are voting that way because they are environmentally motivated.
Because Green (and ALP) voters are voting tactically in those electorates to elect an independent instead of an LNP member.
 
Because Green (and ALP) voters are voting tactically in those electorates to elect an independent instead of an LNP member.
Preferential voting is now considered voting "tactically" by Demonic Ascent.

Demonic Ascent with the news - extra extra read all about it, "independents that are left of Liberals get preferenced before Liberals by left wing voters".

You're justification makes absolutely no sense. Why would a voter vote for the Teals over the Greens, if they were a Greens voter who wanted to ensure an LNP member wasn't elected? They achieve that by voting Greens and then preferencing Teals. It doesn't mean they are secretely Greens. In fact - if as per your suggesting Greens voters are voting Teal as first preference - it means the exact opposite, it means they want to be AWAY from the Greens and are preferencing an independent with pro-environment policies but away from the baggage of social degeneracy, and racism that the Greens have.
 
Preferential voting is now considered voting "tactically" by Demonic Ascent.

Demonic Ascent with the news - extra extra read all about it, "independents that are left of Liberals get preferenced before Liberals by left wing voters".

You're justification makes absolutely no sense. Why would a voter vote for the Teals over the Greens, if they were a Greens voter who wanted to ensure an LNP member wasn't elected? They achieve that by voting Greens and then preferencing Teals. It doesn't mean they are secretely Greens. In fact - if as per your suggesting Greens voters are voting Teal as first preference - it means the exact opposite, it means they want to be AWAY from the Greens and are preferencing an independent with pro-environment policies but away from the baggage of social degeneracy, and racism that the Greens have.
They would preference the independent 1st to ensure they finished 1st or 2nd in the primary vote. If they fall below that then their preferences will likely be distributed to one of the two majors.
 
Most people, like me, voted for parties that got way more than 12% of the vote....

The Greens have 11 senate seats but they lost some relevance on Saturday.

Who needs to reflect? Maybe Bandt and co...
In terms of being able to impact policy they probably gained relevance ironically. But will they use this power. All they have to do is be closer to right on labors left than the liberals are closer to the left on labors right. Do that and they can impact nearly every policy labor puts to the senate.
 
Who said anything about the Greens capturing the teal base?

There are plenty of electorates where the teal vote is coming partially at the expense of Labor and the Greens, it’s a big question as to why this is the case.

The Greens’ stated goal is to become a party of government and if that is the case they need to find a way to get those votes. Especially when a huge chunk of teal voters are voting that way because they are environmentally motivated.

Well then where else would the Green vote come from to win these leafy green inner suburb seats? Teals are economic conservatives with more progressive views than the Liberal Party but still very distant from the Greens, their second home won't be the Greens, it will be the ALP. Hence the Lib attack ads in teal electorates that the teal voted with the Greens 55% of the time etc - it's political poison in these electorates to be a Green.

Quite simply, the Greens lost their handful of seats because the Liberal voters disillusioned with the candidate the Libs put up for them went to the ALP instead of the Greens, and the Libs HTV preferences the ALP. The Greens might state they want to be a party of government but realistically a true left wing party (or right wing) won't form government in the land of compulsory preferential voting we have.

It's not a widespread rejection of wokeism or the radical left or anti-semistism whatever political agenda FBI, JackFlash etc gleefully claim it is, when their primary vote has stabilised at about 10% to 15% for the past 20 years and but for the grace of one redistribution, spiteful HTV cards from a major party and a particularly poor Leader of the Opposition they might have retained their four HoR seats anyway.

They still look to have easily won a Senate seat in each State.
 

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