The Greens

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Caesar

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The Greens are benefiting from the fact that the ALP is backing in the Stage 3 tax cuts. I mean, if you can't argue against a policy that largely benefits higher income earners, you can't really call yourself a progressive party. At least the Stage 1 & 2 tax cuts benefited low and middle income earners - the Stage 3 cuts, on the other hand, are an assault on the progressive taxation system and the Greens are quite rightly opposing them.
Not touching the stage 3 tax cuts is going to win the ALP the election

Knowing they have a tax break coming down the line makes a Labor government a lot more palatable to a lot of those higher income earners who know they’re not going to get much out of the government in the next 6 years or so
 

Carn The Berries

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Luckily exploration is tax deductible, just another way they don't get taxed on their profits.

Woodside had revenues of $7bn last year. They made $2bn profit after tax. They paid about $700m in royalties.

Not many industries where you can get the raw materials for $700m and sell them with a 10x markup
Ummmm.... Royalties aren't the only cost that a miner incurs to extract their product... Not sure your math checks out there...
 

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Carn The Berries

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Not touching the stage 3 tax cuts is going to win the ALP the election

Knowing they have a tax break coming down the line makes a Labor government a lot more palatable to a lot of those higher income earners who know they’re not going to get much out of the government in the next 6 years or so
Whether they like them or not the ALP are pretty well wedged on the Stage 3 cuts. Doing away with them would be political suicide, particularly given they are looking for as many moderate right votes as possible to (potentially) win government. For all people's outward opinion that climate change is their number one concern, the hip pocket vote will win more times than it loses.
 

Saint

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Ummmm.... Royalties aren't the only cost that a miner incurs to extract their product... Not sure your math checks out there...
Same for any product sold. Bunnings don't manufacture anything, but they don't put a 10x markup on anything either. Nobody in any other business could.

Just about everything mining companies do, from research to exploration is tax deductible. And nearly everything they do, they classify as research/technology.

It's why they pay so little tax.
 

Saint

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Whether they like them or not the ALP are pretty well wedged on the Stage 3 cuts. Doing away with them would be political suicide, particularly given they are looking for as many moderate right votes as possible to (potentially) win government. For all people's outward opinion that climate change is their number one concern, the hip pocket vote will win more times than it loses.
Yep, they need to balance it with a raise in the company tax rate. Play LNP politics and hit the LNP party members where it hurts.

Let the papers and LNP try the trickle-down economics line.

It actually makes perfect economic sense. All the increases in productivity have gone to corporate profits over the last decade while wages have stagnated. It makes sense to increase company tax rates and give employees tax relief to re-balance the productivity gains.
 

Carn The Berries

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Same for any product sold. Bunnings don't manufacture anything, but they don't put a 10x markup on anything either. Nobody in any other business could.

Just about everything mining companies do, from research to exploration is tax deductible. And nearly everything they do, they classify as research/technology.

It's why they pay so little tax.
I'm not disputing any of that. But to say that their mark-up is 10x based solely on the royalties paid is just absolute fallacy.
 

Carn The Berries

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Yep, they need to balance it with a raise in the company tax rate. Play LNP politics and hit the LNP party members where it hurts.

Let the papers and LNP try the trickle-down economics line.

It actually makes perfect economic sense. All the increases in productivity have gone to corporate profits over the last decade while wages have stagnated. It makes sense to increase company tax rates and give employees tax relief to re-balance the productivity gains.
But they would likely end up snookering themselves if they went down that path. What chance is there of stagnating wages increasing if you're taking companies more? If you're the party that is running a platform of delivering higher wages, this isn't the way to do it.
 

Saint

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I'm not disputing any of that. But to say that their mark-up is 10x based solely on the royalties paid is just absolute fallacy.
I'm just saying they're making such a large profit that they can afford to pay more tax/royalties and still be hugely profitable.
 

Saint

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But they would likely end up snookering themselves if they went down that path. What chance is there of stagnating wages increasing if you're taking companies more? If you're the party that is running a platform of delivering higher wages, this isn't the way to do it.
If unemployment is 4%, then an increase in company tax (which is only on profits, remember) is hardly going to stagnate wages (can they stagnate any more?).

It would still grow the economy as employees would have more to spend. Company profits only go to a few, it's far less stimulatory.

The problem with the tax cuts is that they're not as stimulatory as they would be if they were aimed at the lower tax brackets, whose tax cuts expire this year.

You're basically arguing trickle-down economics, that if company taxes go up, then jobs/pay goes down. Which has never actually happened in economic history.
 

Carn The Berries

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If unemployment is 4%, then an increase in company tax (which is only on profits, remember) is hardly going to stagnate wages (can they stagnate any more?).

It would still grow the economy as employees would have more to spend. Company profits only go to a few, it's far less stimulatory.

The problem with the tax cuts is that they're not as stimulatory as they would be if they were aimed at the lower tax brackets, whose tax cuts expire this year.

You're basically arguing trickle-down economics, that if company taxes go up, then jobs/pay goes down. Which has never actually happened in economic history.
I'm not suggesting that wages or jobs would go down, I'm suggesting that employers appetite to increase wages would be less if they are going to be forking out more in company tax.
 

Saint

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I'm not suggesting that wages or jobs would go down, I'm suggesting that employers appetite to increase wages would be less if they are going to be forking out more in company tax.
Why? The two are not that linked.

If staff start leaving, they'll pay more. Company bosses haven't been increasing wages while profits went up.

Are you suggesting that if their profits went up that they would increase wages? Because that's not what's happened over the last 10 years.

Company profits go up = no wage increases (last 10 years - proven)
Company profits go down = no wage increases (your hypothesis).

It's OK, the Business Council says the same as you do. "There's no good time for a wage increase!"
 

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Gralin

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I'm not suggesting that wages or jobs would go down, I'm suggesting that employers appetite to increase wages would be less if they are going to be forking out more in company tax.
there is no appetite to increase wages
wage increase come about because of competition between businesses for workers
not from profits or lower taxes

if they can get staff without paying more they will, if they can keep staff without paying more they will

if they need to eat slightly into their profit margins to stop their competitor poaching all their staff and stealing their market share they will

thats literally all it is
 

Carn The Berries

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Why? The two are not that linked.

If staff start leaving, they'll pay more. Company bosses haven't been increasing wages while profits went up.

Are you suggesting that if their profits went up that they would increase wages? Because that's not what's happened over the last 10 years.

Company profits go up = no wage increases (last 10 years - proven)
Company profits go down = no wage increases (your hypothesis).

It's OK, the Business Council says the same as you do. "There's no good time for a wage increase!"
What I'm saying is that businesses need absolutely no incentive to not raise wages to begin with (as you rightly point out). My argument isn't necessarily an entirely economic one, its more political/philisophical. From a political perspective this would be poison for the ALP. They have run an entire campaign on the platform of being the party to help lift wages. An increase in company tax (whether the perceived outcome is actually true or not) on face value looks to be a dis-incentive to businesses to raise wages. The LNP would absolutely crucify them on this (if they have a half competent leader/senior leadership).

It might be good economic policy, but from a political perspective I think they would be backing themselves into an unnecessary corner.
 

Carringbush2010

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You can make rules to not allow them to move money. Look at how the west is stealing rich Russian money. You have to think bigger.

Free uni worked fine not that long ago. There is plenty of money

Yes those rules would need to pass the house to make legislation, so it's not just 'we're the govt. we're gonna make this rule'

Apart from that enforcing people to keep their money onshore so the govt. can tax it further is not reflective of our liberal democratic society.
 

Carringbush2010

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Got anything to support 'ultimately a better standard of education'. Would we still have kids leaving school who cant read, write & add up.

Don't have a link but if you increase competition for spots.................. yeah I know it's only in theory. I'm thinking ideally.
 

Kwality

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Does that mean they won't pay the tax they never paid?

Taxation rates are competitive:
 

Baltimore Jack

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But they would likely end up snookering themselves if they went down that path. What chance is there of stagnating wages increasing if you're taking companies more? If you're the party that is running a platform of delivering higher wages, this isn't the way to do it.
Yes because "trickle down" has worked so well in the past
 

Saint

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What I'm saying is that businesses need absolutely no incentive to not raise wages to begin with (as you rightly point out). My argument isn't necessarily an entirely economic one, its more political/philisophical. From a political perspective this would be poison for the ALP. They have run an entire campaign on the platform of being the party to help lift wages. An increase in company tax (whether the perceived outcome is actually true or not) on face value looks to be a dis-incentive to businesses to raise wages. The LNP would absolutely crucify them on this (if they have a half competent leader/senior leadership).

It might be good economic policy, but from a political perspective I think they would be backing themselves into an unnecessary corner.
By extrapolation, any party which tries to raise wages (minimum wage) or cut taxes on wages and increasing them elsewhere, such as corporate taxes is going to be crucified.

I think at some point the ALP needs to take the stand that the Greens have and just say openly that they favour workers over corporations and just because the papers and conservative radio will get stuck in, they have the truth and economics on their side. If they keep giving up ideological battles, they just keep drifting further to the right. They need to lead, not let the conservative papers drag them and public opinion to the right.
 

Saint

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It might be good economic policy, but from a political perspective I think they would be backing themselves into an unnecessary corner.
This sentence.

At some point, parties need to be able to lead and sell good economic policies, not let the corporate media drag them away from good policy for bad politics.
 

Kwality

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Luckily exploration is tax deductible, just another way they don't get taxed on their profits.

Woodside had revenues of $7bn last year. They made $2bn profit after tax. They paid about $700m in royalties.

Not many industries where you can get the raw materials for $700m and sell them with a 10x markup

Luckily eh. Lucky for the taxpayer?
Lucky the LNG was discovred, aka found, lucky the business case stacked up, lucky there was a potential customer prepared to sign up for a multi million take or pay contract for stuff still in ground .... etc.
But you know all that, its the easily lead you are selling that line tooo ..... Vic has locked up its gas reserves, $0 royalties. Thats a choice.
 

Kwality

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Great, then you shouldn't have a problem with policies to try and reclaim that tax from people and companies who can definitely afford it so the government can fund some essential services such as including dental and mental in medicare.

Understanding how tax works does not mean I support the reality of taxation. IF we want to spend it, we need to get it from somewhere OR simply borrow it as we have since Howard/Costello were shown the door.*

Try understanding what you are talking about before leaping on that soap box & telling us how virtuous you are, protected by that cloak of ignorance.

* I bought the Rudd/Swann dream too.
 

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