Competitions The HARKER and ShanDog Fight Club

[ShanDog]

The Rules of Fight Club:

1. Personal attacks aren't arguments.

2. Stop being a whiny crybaby.

3. Have at it!

But seriously though, since it seems Harker and I have some strong opinions on stuff, here is a thread to carry on conversations that start on the Carlton board that really go beyond the scope of that area and would otherwise be deleted. HARKER, feel free to quote anything I say that you disagree with on the board or want to take further over to here and I'll do the same. If anyone else want to pick a fight, feel free to use this thread too.

No idea if this will go beyond a couple of pages for shits and giggles after it is made, but what the hell - it's an idea.

And unlike most of Hark's ideas, this is a good one

 

[HARKER]

Debates are terrific and even losing a debate is terrific, as you may come out that little more informed than when you walked into one.

A strict format is required though as otherwise it becomes a loop, as it has in discussions on societal issues, religion, 9/11, Conspiracy theories etc.

Sometimes a table-tennis match can work, in as far as saying, "Here's what I see. Now what do you see?"

 

[ShanDog]

Want to discuss this one:

Here you go ShanDog :https://www.thevenusproject.com/

People may fear such ideas and label them politically as being communist, but the real sad part is that we're 'happy' with what we have today.

Again, I haven't yet gone through that whole site to see just exactly how they propose this utopian, currency-free society would work in practise, but the ideas it talks about throw up some pretty big flags for me immediately.

You touched on the communism comparison and it's a fair one from what I've seen. Regardless of actual label, it looks like they are running with the "Everyone will be supplied with what they need" ideology as a base for the planned society.

How does this concept reconcile with the fundamental human driver created through millions of years of evolution to compete with one another in order to guarantee survival? How can this place possibly expand and cater for the entire human race (which I assume is the end goal - otherwise it's just another elitist society ignoring the plight of everyone else) given the diverse nature of humans and our cultural histories?

Capitalism has it's flaws - there's no doubting that. But it also makes use of fundamental human behaviour (which can't be changed in the space of a generation - not this sort of evolutionary psychological schema) to use competition as a motivator for prosperity. The trick is making sure the prosperity it appropriately shared and not simply taken away by government and completely redistributed. The Venus Project looks like it will do just that. That's why I can't ever see it surviving beyond the startup community who buy into that philosophy and those they spawn from within...

 

[HARKER]

Set the rules and topics ShanDog
Leave me out of micro/country politics but include me in the bigger picture politics.

Generally I find it best to have a clear point of discussion and veering away from it has points deducted.
Use ones own words and thoughts and don't cite others.

Start points...

 

[ShanDog]

Set the rules and topics ShanDog
Leave me out of micro/country politics but include me in the bigger picture politics.

Generally I find it best to have a clear point of discussion and veering away from it has points deducted.
Use ones own words and thoughts and don't cite others.

Start points...

Was less interested in formal debates and scoring than I was in just expanding on contentious topics that come up from time to time on the main Carlton board. Up to you though.

 

[HARKER]

How does this concept reconcile with the fundamental human driver created through millions of years of evolution to compete with one another in order to guarantee survival? How can this place possibly expand and cater for the entire human race (which I assume is the end goal - otherwise it's just another elitist society ignoring the plight of everyone else) given the diverse nature of humans and our cultural histories?
Capitalism has it's flaws - there's no doubting that. But it also makes use of fundamental human behaviour (which can't be changed in the space of a generation - not this sort of evolutionary psychological schema) to use competition as a motivator for prosperity. The trick is making sure the prosperity it appropriately shared and not simply taken away by government and completely redistributed. The Venus Project looks like it will do just that. That's why I can't ever see it surviving beyond the startup community who buy into that philosophy and those they spawn from within...

Four beers in and a movie lined up so I can't go too deep tonight, but let me highlight a couple of important points here first.

Let's touch on behaviour. How does this behaviour come about? Is it intrinsic or is it learned?
I don't think there's such a thing as fundamental human behaviour. It's just simply us accepting the status quo as though it will be there forever.

We don't think in decades, centuries or millennia.....we just see what is now, will forever be. That cannot be the case as that would have us grounded.
Question over to you: Why do you see our current standards of behaviour as being what will be in times to come?

No new political philosophies can possibly be adopted within our limited time on earth. A paradigm shift of thought will have to come about first.
How will that come about? Unfortunately it will take something of a catastrophic nature, I feel or some...........revelation.

Hope this is at least legible for now.

 

[Kismet]

Might as well join in...

All political ideologies work in theory, but have the fatal flaw of assuming all people will abide by the rules and not let self interest get involved.

Communism is the perfect example: everyone working together towards a common prosperity and harmonious society. Unfortunately it takes only one person to make it fall apart.

Pure capitalism is the other side of the coin, but for society to benefit as a whole, it assumes that all people have the ability, drive and intelligence to succeed. Alas, that can never be the case, and you will always have individuals who will 'break the rules', so society will always break down into a dog-eat-dog scenario.

In the end, civilised populations recognise the need for compromise, even though that will always have shortcomings.

 

[HARKER]

Might as well join in...
All political ideologies work in theory, but have the fatal flaw of assuming all people will abide by the rules and not let self interest get involved.
Communism is the perfect example: everyone working together towards a common prosperity and harmonious society. Unfortunately it takes only one person to make it fall apart.
Pure capitalism is the other side of the coin, but for society to benefit as a whole, it assumes that all people have the ability, drive and intelligence to succeed. Alas, that can never be the case, and you will always have individuals who will 'break the rules', so society will always break down into a dog-eat-dog scenario.

In the end, civilised populations recognise the need for compromise, even though that will always have shortcomings.

My understanding of the intricacies of ideologies is limited but I do know that we accept today, we may not tomorrow.

We've fallen into the systems we have and find it hard to imagine alternatives and we cite 'society' as simply being what it is, hence there can not be change.
There can be change and there will be change. There have already been many changes through western or progressive societies thinking, in recent decades.
Some of these changes have not taken on full effect, as unfortunately industry needs (leading into our needs) prevail.

Why do you though think that society will always break down to dog-eat-dog?
'Always' is a long time and we may not be around to see a better (or worse) world, but what we do know is that we cannot go on the way we currently are.
This planet isn't big enough to tend to the needs of a ever ballooning population.

There will be change and when it finally does come about, it will be a real eye-opener.
In regards to ideologies, I can only see a new Socialism being the way forward. Maybe we just weren't civilised enough before, to really make it work. Maybe one day we will be. Maybe.

 

[ShanDog]

My understanding of the intricacies of ideologies is limited but I do know that we accept today, we may not tomorrow.

We've fallen into the systems we have and find it hard to imagine alternatives and we cite 'society' as simply being what it is, hence there can not be change.
There can be change and there will be change. There have already been many changes through western or progressive societies thinking, in recent decades.
Some of these changes have not taken on full effect, as unfortunately industry needs (leading into our needs) prevail.

Why do you though think that society will always break down to dog-eat-dog?
'Always' is a long time and we may not be around to see a better (or worse) world, but what we do know is that we cannot go on the way we currently are.
This planet isn't big enough to tend to the needs of a ever ballooning population.

There will be change and when it finally does come about, it will be a real eye-opener.
In regards to ideologies, I can only see a new Socialism being the way forward. Maybe we just weren't civilised enough before, to really make it work. Maybe one day we will be. Maybe.

We've already for a new socialism that is a good foundation. We have progressive tax rates (socialist concept), baseline welfare incomes for the unemployed and unable (socialist concept), redistribution of wealth through family tax bonuses (socialist concept)... it's a mix of both systems and works pretty OK at the moment. It won't last like this forever no doubt, and our system will change depending on the social and technological state of the world. There's no magic bullet though - some new and untried system that will fix all the problems.

So far, every single society - without exception and regardless of how egalitarian it's aimed to be - has always degenerated into the 'haves' and 'have nots'. Each attempt at communism, capitalism and everything in between has seen the power and resources hogged by the few to the detriment of the many.

 

[HARKER]

We've already for a new socialism that is a good foundation. We have progressive tax rates (socialist concept), baseline welfare incomes for the unemployed and unable (socialist concept), redistribution of wealth through family tax bonuses (socialist concept)... it's a mix of both systems and works pretty OK at the moment. It won't last like this forever no doubt, and our system will change depending on the social and technological state of the world. There's no magic bullet though - some new and untried system that will fix all the problems.

So far, every single society - without exception and regardless of how egalitarian it's aimed to be - has always degenerated into the 'haves' and 'have nots'. Each attempt at communism, capitalism and everything in between has seen the power and resources hogged by the few to the detriment of the many.

I think there is but that would take this discussion into another area.

It's O.K. to say that our systems aren't perfect but that's largely because we aren't.
Just because we have mobile phones and laptops doesn't necessarily make us civilised.

We have a long way to go but I do like the progress in our social and worldly awarenesses; We care for our environment more than we ever have. We largely consider what we put into our bodies and are slowly weening off our flesh-eating ways. We are becoming more aware that we should all be treated equally and afforded the same respect etc.

Taking that on a loop and getting back to the topic that triggered the conversation; I just 'wish' that we could do what we know will come about, quicker.
We're still reactionary as against being pro-active and why's that? Because people can't handle change and have to be nursed along for a period of time?
Boring.

 

[HARKER]

I haven't watched this, but I like this mans style from what I've seen of him.
He's not grounded in the now as being the only way. His vision goes well beyond the obvious.

 

[Blue Pulse]

Loving the discussion and thoughts gents, keep up the good work.

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

I'm leaving now.